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Old 10-27-2010, 21:54   #1
Shenron
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Remington Golden Saber Bonded?

I know the standard Golden Sabers are known for Jacket-Core seperation but what about their bonded line?

I have seen tests for the 9mm and the results are impressive.

What about in a 40?
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Old 10-28-2010, 12:10   #2
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I've seen a fair number of Rem GS rounds fired into various gel block scenarios over the years of attending a number of manufacturer hosted gel events.

I believe I've seen 2 jacket separations during that time, a 180gr & 165gr in .40 S&W.

I don't give much thought or worry to experiencing it, and I've been carrying standard Rem GS loads in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP for the last few years (124gr +P, 180gr & 230gr).

The flux compound used to bond the lead ingot to the brass jacket, as well as some hollowpoint cavity differences between some standard & bonded loads, can seem to have a potential effect upon the expansion in situations such as those simulated by bare gel & 4-layer denim gel shots.

Here's a couple of shots from a gel shoot event where pics were taken.

180gr Bonded on the top - 180gr standard on the bottom - 4 layers of denim
Caliber Corner
Caliber Corner

Same rounds viewed from the side, same orientation.
Caliber Corner
Caliber Corner

165gr load into 4-layers of denim
Caliber Corner

Personally, I never really concerned myself all that much with loads especially designed to defeat automotive windshield glass during my career, but some agencies do ... hence the ammo companies make the rounds and sell them.

Last I was told by a Rem LE rep, though, the Bonded loads were restricted by company policy to LE/Gov agencies. I didn't get the impression they were as tight about it as Winchester is with their T-Series loads, though.

Bonded loads are available over the counter, so to speak, with the Speer Gold Dot and new Winchester PDX line, although I believe the bonding processes and bullet designs differ.
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Old 10-28-2010, 12:12   #3
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BTW, here are the 180gr loads when fired through auto windshield glass and gel. In this case the standard round is on the top and Bonded round is on the bottom.
Caliber Corner
Caliber Corner

Also, remember that if you fire 50-100 or more rounds under the same circumstances, and other circumstances, you might find some deviation in the results. That can happen with manufactured products ... and you can't predict the specific circumstances under which a specific load, fired out of a specific gun, will be used.
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Old 10-28-2010, 12:24   #4
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Wow, thank you for the pictures. The GS Bonded seemed to expand decently and I do not have to worry about separation.

I mean would you carry them?

At this point it is a matter of price I think, The GS Bonded seems to be a solid round and I am trying to get my hands on some T-series. Just waiting for a e-mail from one of the Winchester Dist.

As of now, I can get 500 rounds of the GS Bonded for $235.
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Old 10-28-2010, 16:06   #5
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I can't presume to recommend a particular round and guess how it might, or might not, be suitable for someone else.

I somehow ended up with a box of Bonded GS rounds when they were a new product, but it wasn't deliberate. I just didn't notice the difference in the box between what I point out and asked for and what I ended up receiving, since the standard & bonded rounds were apparently mixed together on the dealer shelves. I've never used those rounds for carry purpose, though, and they simply remain in my ammunition collection.

I've been carrying the non-bonded rounds since those have been issued rounds since we transitioned from T-Series loads (the GS rounds were significantly less expensive than the formerly issued T-Series at that time, since the T-Series was not a state contract load). BTW, in one gel shoot event I remember seeing a single T-Series round lose its jacket, as well.

As far as the desirability for bonded rounds designed to better penetrate intermediate barriers, like windshield glass, there's no small amount of disagreement even among the LE/Gov community. Just listening and seeing what's most commonly issued over the years, however, it seems the standard rounds are still the most commonly chosen. Maybe it's because of the pricing, as some bonding processes have been more expensive in times past, and maybe it's because the LE community isn't as concerned about shootings involving armed suspects in & around vehicles as is thought by the public. The CHP, in CA, for example, hasn't ever to my knowledge included specifications for bonded rounds designed to better defeat vehicle glass & doors, and they stop cars for a living. They used the original Win 180gr JHP for many years, followed by the Rem 180gr Express JHP (another old-style bullet design), followed by the Golden Sabre 180gr (non-bonded), and the latest state contract for ammunition is for the Win T-Series 180gr load.

I've recently started using the Win PDX in .38 Spl +P as an alternative load in a couple of my J-frames. (Availability of different more modern .38 loads is spotty from time to time, and I'm not adverse to using a few different loads depending on availability.) Looking over the results of a couple of gel shots in both 4-layer denim and veh glass from some recent gel testing (manufacturer's hosted event), that round seemed to offer both decent expansion as well as penetration when fired out of a short-barreled J-frame. Not bad. Very limited example, of course, but not bad.

In one test shot the .38 load exhibited similar expansion and penetration to a 127gr +P+ 9mm load. Not the same velocity, of course, so the muzzle energy & velocity enthusiasts will feel the 127 +P+ load is still probably a better load ... and I won't presume to disagree, as I also used quite a bit of the RA9TA when we issued it, and I have a decent amount remaining which I still use from time to time ... but I thought the similarity of the simple expansion/penetration numbers was interesting in one of the shots.

You can't easily predict what any given bullet is going to do when fired into any given target medium.

I wouldn't spend an arm or a leg on such 'specialty ammo', though.

Just my thoughts.
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Old 10-29-2010, 15:17   #6
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Thank you for all of the awesome info! It has helped a lot.
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Old 10-29-2010, 19:57   #7
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You're welcome.

Just bear in mind that I'm not an expert on this subject.
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Old 10-29-2010, 21:48   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastbolt View Post
Just bear in mind that I'm not an expert on this subject.
He just plays one on tv.
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Old 10-29-2010, 23:13   #9
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Nah, but I've been around this stuff long enough for some of it to start to stick ... even if it's to the bottom of my boots.

BTW, a couple of things I've never particularly cared for in the GS line of ammo is the sootiness and the occasional sparklers/embers in the muzzle flash when doing night shoots.
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Old 10-29-2010, 23:20   #10
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i'd like to see the effects of the Fiocchi EMB through a windshield.
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Old 10-30-2010, 09:38   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastbolt View Post
Nah, but I've been around this stuff long enough for some of it to start to stick ... even if it's to the bottom of my boots.

BTW, a couple of things I've never particularly cared for in the GS line of ammo is the sootiness and the occasional sparklers/embers in the muzzle flash when doing night shoots.
Nicely done FB. I often think too much is made of jacket/core separation, especially in larger calibers. The jacket on a 230grJHP weighs about 30gr. Even if it left the core entirely, you still have a 200gr deforming lead core & a secondary, if shallow, wound track from the jacket. Not a bad thing, as long as the core penetrates. For most CCW scenarios, std cup/core bullets will work fine. Bonded have their place, especially in high impact vel bullets like the light 115gr 9mm+P+ or 125gr 357sig, maybe 155gr 40s & 185gr 45s, but I happily tote std RGS & not fret over a possible core/jacket separation.
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Old 10-30-2010, 09:48   #12
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Great pics!!

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