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Old 11-07-2010, 16:23   #1
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Why is it so hard to admit Atheism is a Religion?

I've been having a discussion with a fellow about his religion. He is an atheist, or at least he claims to be.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthre...1#post16262611

He believes that God does not exist, however, he acknowledges that it is impossible for him to prove this belief.

So, when it is pointed out that he has "Faith" that he is right, and that his view of the universe is right. As devout as any other religious fellow that I've run across.


Just to make sure I am being clear about my own beliefs, I am unsure, I'm an agnostic. I see evidence in nature and in man that both makes me believe that there may be a God, and there may not be one, or at least it may be difficult to know which one is the right one.
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Old 11-07-2010, 16:30   #2
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Is being bald a hair color?

Is not collecting stamps a hobby?
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Old 11-07-2010, 16:32   #3
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If you really want understanding of this, please answer this question:

Do you believe in the existence of Vishnu?

When you answer, please carefully note that I asked if you *believe* - not whether it can be known or not known, but whether or not you *believe* it is true that Vishnu exists.
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Old 11-07-2010, 16:33   #4
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And because its a pet peeve:

The terms atheist and agnostic are not mutually exclusive. You can be an agnostic atheist, an agnostic theist, a gnostic thiest, etc etc.

http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagn.../a/atheism.htm
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Old 11-07-2010, 16:38   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeflys1 View Post
Is being bald a hair color?

Is not collecting stamps a hobby?
And what does either of those have to do with the fundamental nature of the universe?
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Old 11-07-2010, 16:42   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
If you really want understanding of this, please answer this question:

Do you believe in the existence of Vishnu?

When you answer, please carefully note that I asked if you *believe* - not whether it can be known or not known, but whether or not you *believe* it is true that Vishnu exists.
To answer, I have my doubts. But I do not know for sure. I believe there is evidence that supports creation, and evidence that supports evolution. It's possible that Vishnu exists.


Is it so hard to admit?
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Old 11-07-2010, 16:43   #7
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
And what does either of those have to do with the fundamental nature of the universe?

Nothing, but they're perfect analogies to demonstrate the mistake in your thought process here.
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Old 11-07-2010, 16:46   #8
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Originally Posted by void * View Post
It not mattering much whether it's true or not, in the example, does not change that it is *exactly* parallel with respect to belief and knowledge. Given that belief and knowledge are the areas in which I'm trying to make the point, the fact that it lacks gravitas is irrelevant.

I see this to some extent analogous to you objecting that someone notes the speed of two objects in freefall is the same because one happens to be a stuffed bunny and the other a safe - "The safe will do more damage when it hits, so even though we've been talking about speed, and they both have the same speed, I'm going to ignore that they have matched speeds!!!"



So rather than actually answering the questions, so you can gain insight in to my actual perspective - I get back veiled statements implying you think I'm a drug user?

Joking or otherwise, the impression I'm getting is that you don't actually want to understand the point. So - that being the case - there's not much point continuing, is there?
If you want to see my answer to your post, lets move this to the GT Religious Issues Forum.

See ya there. http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1282322


The whole "pixies" metaphor minimizes the gravity of the question at hand, and is likely something you've used before to mock the question.

Does God exist or not? You said in the other thread that you "believe" there is no god, but you have no proof.

Like it or not, that is faith.
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Old 11-07-2010, 16:49   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeflys1 View Post
And because its a pet peeve:

The terms atheist and agnostic are not mutually exclusive. You can be an agnostic atheist, an agnostic theist, a gnostic thiest, etc etc.

http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagn.../a/atheism.htm
I think what you are trying to describe is whether the approach to atheism is active or passive.


Whether passive or active, if you do believe there is a deity, you do. If you don't, you don't.

Agnosticism ranges from whether it is impossible to know, or whether the individual simply does not know.

I think it is possible to know, only if there is a God. I assume that we would all find out in the afterlife. If there isn't, I doubt we would be aware enough to realize it after we are dead.
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Old 11-07-2010, 16:52   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeflys1 View Post
Nothing, but they're perfect analogies to demonstrate the mistake in your thought process here.
I think they are minimization of the issue.


I'll go first. I don't know if there are any deities.


Are you personally sure that there is or is not a god?
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Old 11-07-2010, 16:56   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
If you want to see my answer to your post, lets move this to the GT Religious Issues Forum.

See ya there. http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1282322
I find it pretty funny that you responded, in this thread, to the post from the other thread - when I had already asked a question in this thread, and was already here to see it (edited: and, in fact, you had already responded to it)

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost...76&postcount=3

I selected Vishnu in this case because an actual god that people really, really believe in ought to hold sufficient 'gravitas' that you might focus on the parallels rather than saying it doesn't matter.

So - Do you believe that Vishnu exists? Not 'do you doubt', not 'do you know or not know', but can you honestly accept the premise that Vishnu is real?

Edit: Or, in other words, would you give the answer 'Yes' to the question 'Does CavalryDoc believe Vishnu actually exists'?
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Old 11-07-2010, 17:01   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
I think they are minimization of the issue.


I'll go first. I don't know if there are any deities.


Are you personally sure that there is or is not a god?
Do you understand the difference between the terms "atheist" and "agnostic"?

Again: http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagn.../a/atheism.htm


"First learn, then form opinions"
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Old 11-07-2010, 17:15   #13
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Void*

Would you please answer Doc's question of "Are you personally sure that there is or is not a god"?

Thanks
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Old 11-07-2010, 17:36   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
I find it pretty funny that you responded, in this thread, to the post from the other thread - when I had already asked a question in this thread, and was already here to see it (edited: and, in fact, you had already responded to it)

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost...76&postcount=3

I selected Vishnu in this case because an actual god that people really, really believe in ought to hold sufficient 'gravitas' that you might focus on the parallels rather than saying it doesn't matter.

So - Do you believe that Vishnu exists? Not 'do you doubt', not 'do you know or not know', but can you honestly accept the premise that Vishnu is real?

Edit: Or, in other words, would you give the answer 'Yes' to the question 'Does CavalryDoc believe Vishnu actually exists'?
I can honestly accept the possibility that vishnu exists. But I believe that I do not know whether he does or does not exist.

Do you know? Do you just know it in your heart, or can you prove it one way or the other?
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Old 11-07-2010, 17:42   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeflys1 View Post
Do you understand the difference between the terms "atheist" and "agnostic"?

Again: http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagn.../a/atheism.htm


"First learn, then form opinions"
That's pretty funny. dismissive condescension. It's not working, but it is funny.

Maybe you could try learning the actual definition of the terms you are using.

Quote:
agnostic

Main Entry: ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: \ag-ˈnäs-tik, əg-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnōstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnōstos known, from gignōskein to know — more at know
Date: 1869
1
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2
: a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something
The bold section fits closest. It may be knowable, but I personally do not have enough proof one way or the other to state conclusively that God, or a God does or does not exist.

So, now that we've gotten past your misconception.


Are you personally sure that there is or is not a god?


See, the problem is I am not sure. If you are sure, how? What convinced you?
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Old 11-07-2010, 18:46   #16
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Because its not a religion.

I can't prove if there is a real easter bunny but I don't give it a enough chance to consider it, I feel the same way about a god.

Why do I have to prove a god religious people CLAIM is real I am sure there is no god I have seen no reason to believe in one. I do not have faith there is no god just like I don't have faith there is no tooth fairy. I put theme in the same category. Does that make my no faith in the easter bunny and the tooth fairy a religion? No that would be silly.

Why do people fill the need to label something that does not want to be a religion or claims to be a religion or a religion? Especially on glock talk to want to call atheism a religion when it claims not to be and islam not a religion when it has been for a long time.

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Old 11-07-2010, 18:51   #17
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
I can honestly accept the possibility that vishnu exists. But I believe that I do not know whether he does or does not exist.
This is, again, not an answer to the question asked. I am not asking if you accept it as possible. I am not asking you if you believe you know. I am not asking about what you know - I am asking about what you believe, I am asking whether or not you accept the proposition "Vishnu exists" as something you believe.

Please, just honestly answer the question - Do you believe that Vishnu exists?

Or, to put it a slightly different way, do you have faith that Vishnu exists?
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Old 11-07-2010, 18:59   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RC-RAMIE View Post
Because its not a religion.

I can't prove if there is a real easter bunny but I don't give it a enough chance to consider it, I feel the same way about a god.

Why do I have to prove a god religious people CLAIM is real I am sure there is no god I have seen no reason to believe in one. I do not have faith there is no god just like I don't have faith there is no tooth fairy. I put theme in the same category. Does that make my no faith in the easter bunny and the tooth fairy a religion? No that would be silly.

Why do people fill the need to label something that does not want to be a religion or claims to be a religion or a religion? Especially on glock talk to want to call atheism a religion when it claims not to be and islam not a religion when it has been for a long time.
It is a belief system that seeks to explain the basic nature of the universe.

It IS a religion. It's OK to admit it if you are one of the faithful. All of us here believe in the right of the individual to practice the religion of his choice.


Denial that Atheism requires faith without proof, of the real situation of affairs in nature, and of the supernatural, doesn't help. It's just a denial of the truth.


Either you have faith that you are correct, or you don't.

If you don't, maybe you're really an agnostic?
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Old 11-07-2010, 19:02   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
This is, again, not an answer to the question asked. I am not asking if you accept it as possible. I am not asking you if you believe you know. I am not asking about what you know - I am asking about what you believe, I am asking whether or not you accept the proposition "Vishnu exists" as something you believe.

Please, just honestly answer the question - Do you believe that Vishnu exists?

Or, to put it a slightly different way, do you have faith that Vishnu exists?
You asked a question, and I answered it honestly. Just because you don't like the answer does not make it any less honest.

You have already illustrated that you are a victim of digital thinking......

Open your mind, and allow yourself the ability to believe that some people are honestly not so arrogant as to believe that they have all the answers.....

I really don't know if Vishnu exists or not. And if you will actually admit the truth, neither do you.
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Old 11-07-2010, 19:05   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
You asked a question, and I answered it honestly. Just because you don't like the answer does not make it any less honest.
You haven't answered the question, at all, either honestly or dishonestly.

You have answered the question 'Do you believe you know whether or not Vishnu exists' with what appears to be a 'No'. (Edit: More specifically, you stated "I believe that I do not know whether he does or does not exist." - which is 'Yes' to the question 'Do you believe that you do not know', which is answering 'No' to the question 'Do you believe that you know').

You have answered the question 'Is it possible that Vishnu exists' with what appears to be a 'Yes'. (Edit: You stated that you accept it as possible)

You have answered the question 'Do you know Vishnu exists' with what appears to be a 'No'. (Edit: If you don't believe you know, then you hold the position that you don't know)

But you have not answered the question 'Do you believe Vishnu exists', and telling yourself that it's just that I don't like the answer doesn't change that.

Since an actual answer to that question (coming from you, rather than me inferring a likely answer based on what you have actually answered) is critical to the point, I can't really explain further without you actually answering it.

Edit: So I can only really ask the same question again, in yet another different way:
Do you accept the proposition that Vishnu exists?
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Old 11-07-2010, 19:06   #21
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
The bold section fits closest. It may be knowable, but I personally do not have enough proof one way or the other to state conclusively that God, or a God does or does not exist.
Its interesting that you jump on the broad, modern definition of agnostic while skipping the definition thats more truthful to the actual philosophical position. Doesn't fit your agenda, I suppose.

(A)theism = referring to belief or non-belief in god(s)
(A)gnosticism = referring to knowledge of god(s)

As has been stated, they're not mutually exclusive positions. Most "atheists" also fall into the agnostic category as well, i.e. "I don't believe in any gods but I don't claim to know they don't exist either."



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
you personally sure that there is or is not a god?

See, the problem is I am not sure. If you are sure, how? What convinced you?
Great, you've established that you don't claim to know whether or not a god exists, now do you believe in one anyways? If you do, you're an Agnostic Theist and if not, an Agnostic Atheist.

See how that works now?
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Old 11-07-2010, 19:20   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
You haven't answered the question, at all, either honestly or dishonestly.

You have answered the question 'Do you believe you know that Vishnu exists' with what appears to be a 'No'.

You have answered the question 'Is it possible that Vishnu exists' with what appears to be a 'Yes'.

But you have not answered the question 'Do you believe Vishnu exists', and telling yourself that it's just that I don't like the answer doesn't change that.

Since an actual answer to that question is critical to the point, I can't really explain further without you actually answering it.


Digital thinking may be terminal in this one.......


Life is not on or off, black or white.....

Life is not digital, it's analog.

Life is best described as shades of gray, in infinite directions.


You are asking if Vishnu exists or not, and I have answered that I am uncertain.

I asked you if you believe Vishnu exists, and you haven't answered. Do you know? Do you just know it in your heart, or can you prove it one way or the other?

But you edited the question out of your posts, because answering it honestly will further evidence your faith in your religion.

Evidently, Atheists aren't as sure as I thought they were, or at least you aren't.


I am answering your questions, even if you don't like the answers. You asked what you wished was a "Yes or NO" question, and forgot to consider that the answer "Maybe" is just as valid as the other two.

You are not answering mine though. So, the hypocrisy is evident. Try to stop that if you can.
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Old 11-07-2010, 19:26   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeflys1 View Post
Its interesting that you jump on the broad, modern definition of agnostic while skipping the definition thats more truthful to the actual philosophical position. Doesn't fit your agenda, I suppose.

(A)theism = referring to belief or non-belief in god(s)
(A)gnosticism = referring to knowledge of god(s)

As has been stated, they're not mutually exclusive positions. Most "atheists" also fall into the agnostic category as well, i.e. "I don't believe in any gods but I don't claim to know they don't exist either."
You profess to know, without proof. I am humble enough to admit that I don't know.

Who is being more honest?


Quote:
Great, you've established that you don't claim to know whether or not a god exists, now do you believe in one anyways? If you do, you're an Agnostic Theist and if not, an Agnostic Atheist.

See how that works now?
I believe that I don't know. I'm not so arrogant that I believe that I have to know everything. I know quite a lot, but in my 42 years, I have a wealth of experiences, that lead me to be unsure.


You seem awful sure though. How did you arrive there?
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Old 11-07-2010, 19:28   #24
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How many people that do not believe in GOD and believe we all came from pond scum or the Big Bang theory can believe that a tornado blowing through a junk yard can assemble a flyable working Boeing 747 from the junk in the yard.

There is an order to the Universe and everything made in it. GOD made it.
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Old 11-07-2010, 19:37   #25
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How many people that do not believe in GOD and believe we all came from pond scum or the Big Bang theory can believe that a tornado blowing through a junk yard can assemble a flyable working Boeing 747 from the junk in the yard.

There is an order to the Universe and everything made in it. GOD made it.
I applaud you for having the conviction to admit your faith.

The atheists are still ignorant of their own, or at leas the won't admit it.




It's odd, that the religion that is the least tolerant of others, that seeks to suppress the right of others to believe, or even not believe are those that claim to have no religion, while denying their own.
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