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Old 11-22-2010, 14:08   #51
Draven21
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Originally Posted by jtull7 View Post
It is only my opinion, but, if one has a silencer or wants a silencer:

1. You are the people who 99% of the ordinary American public thinks is a dangerous gun nut;

2. Normal gun owners are asking themselves, what conceivable reason would a normal gun-owning person need a silencer?

3. You are probably a "wanna-be" who wears tactical sunglasses and has a bayonet on your AR.

I'm sorry, but give me a break. No flame. If it's legal, and it floats your boat, no matter what I happen to think of your boat, it's your right to be as weird as you want to be. It's America.
There is nothing weird about suppressors. They protect your hearing, reduce recoil, reduce muzzle flash and make it easier for repeat hunting shots. Yes, you can hunt with them at least in Oregon. Also people new to guns find it more enjoyable and less intimidating. In Europe (I know, bad location example) it is considered impolite to shoot without one. Plus they are just plain cool and fun. I am not a wannabe and neither are any of the people I talk to who have "cans". I'm going out on the back porch to shoot my P22 suppressed with neighbors on both sides. Have a nice day.
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Old 11-25-2010, 17:09   #52
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Originally Posted by G21ACPBeliever View Post
Also, why has no one mentioned the reason that they are generally outlawed in the US? To the best of my knowledge it was because a bullet that passes through a suppressor becomes ballistically changed and the slug can no longer be matched to the rifling of the barrel of the gun it was fired from for a ballistic match to be used as evidence in a trial.
Umm, nope. If the bullet is coming in contact with the baffles in your suppressor then it is going to wear out in no-time.

Besides ballistic matching of rifling as shown in TV crime drama is more voodoo than real. Normally ballistic matching is mostly used to rule out if a gun fired the shot (5 lands on the bullet, 6 lands in the barrel). All it takes to totally change the ballistic signature of a barrel is to run a stainless steel brush through the barrel.

The real reason suppressors are controlled is the Feds don't want people to know how much fun it is to shoot a gun that goes "pew - pew - - - - - - - - - pew - pew - pew".

I am have decided I am going to get myself a .22 and 9mm suppressor for myself for Christmas. Now I just have to decide which ones to get.
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Old 11-26-2010, 12:28   #53
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I'm torn between getting a threaded barrel for my Glock and getting a suppressor or not... I just dont like the rights you give up for one.... It seems that if you decide to go full auto, or any of the other "special" tax stamps, you also forfeit your right to protection against unlawful search and seizure laws., i.e., they can enter your home any time and demand to look at whatever they want...
Not that I have anything to hide, I just wouldnt like the fact that they could...
And I was told this by an LEO who has several full auto's, suppressors, and SBR weapons.. His words of advice to me "make sure you know what you are giving up to have a cool toy"...
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Old 11-26-2010, 12:35   #54
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Originally Posted by Haldor View Post
I am have decided I am going to get myself a .22 and 9mm suppressor for myself for Christmas. Now I just have to decide which ones to get.
I have a few .22 and 9mm suppressors and would be willing to go shoot some with you to let you see what you like and do not like.

email is in my profile

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Old 11-26-2010, 12:38   #55
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Originally Posted by Christof60 View Post
I'm torn between getting a threaded barrel for my Glock and getting a suppressor or not... I just dont like the rights you give up for one.... It seems that if you decide to go full auto, or any of the other "special" tax stamps, you also forfeit your right to protection against unlawful search and seizure laws., i.e., they can enter your home any time and demand to look at whatever they want...
Not that I have anything to hide, I just wouldnt like the fact that they could...
And I was told this by an LEO who has several full auto's, suppressors, and SBR weapons.. His words of advice to me "make sure you know what you are giving up to have a cool toy"...
I have wondered if there is some actual wording or case law to back up what he says. I have heard this hearsay before but have never seen it supported.

Thanks
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Old 11-26-2010, 12:52   #56
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Originally Posted by Christof60 View Post
I'm torn between getting a threaded barrel for my Glock and getting a suppressor or not... I just dont like the rights you give up for one.... It seems that if you decide to go full auto, or any of the other "special" tax stamps, you also forfeit your right to protection against unlawful search and seizure laws., i.e., they can enter your home any time and demand to look at whatever they want...
Not that I have anything to hide, I just wouldnt like the fact that they could...
And I was told this by an LEO who has several full auto's, suppressors, and SBR weapons.. His words of advice to me "make sure you know what you are giving up to have a cool toy"...
There was a legal paper on NFA Title 2 items a while back that addressed these issues. An FFL for SURE gives up some privacy for ATF inspection, however, the Stamp for owning Title II's is a TAX FORM. Tax privacy laws apply.

So, the question really becomes one of having a Warrant or not. How hard is it to obtain a Warrant for "man with gun." Doesn't matter if you have a title 2 firearm or not. Warrants are easy to get for folks with guns.

Last edited by rjrivero; 11-26-2010 at 13:39..
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Old 11-26-2010, 14:15   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christof60 View Post
I'm torn between getting a threaded barrel for my Glock and getting a suppressor or not... I just dont like the rights you give up for one.... It seems that if you decide to go full auto, or any of the other "special" tax stamps, you also forfeit your right to protection against unlawful search and seizure laws., i.e., they can enter your home any time and demand to look at whatever they want...
Not that I have anything to hide, I just wouldnt like the fact that they could...
And I was told this by an LEO who has several full auto's, suppressors, and SBR weapons.. His words of advice to me "make sure you know what you are giving up to have a cool toy"...
Complete and total B.S.


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Old 11-26-2010, 14:43   #58
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Originally Posted by Glockdude1 View Post
Complete and total B.S.


Hey now, you know as well as I do that you and I are on a passenger manifest to Gitmo.......
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Old 11-26-2010, 14:58   #59
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Originally Posted by rjrivero View Post
Technically, if you want to manufacture and sell full auto/silencers/SBS/SBR/AOW, you would need to pay a Class III Special Occupational Tax annually, and maintain a Type 7 FFL.
Nope.

MFGs have a type 07 FFL, and a 02 SOT.

Back on topic - Once you shoot a firearm with it is hard to go back. So much more comfortable to not wear hearing protection, and to be able to hear sounds around you.

Just got back to the house from shooting my silenced HK/UMP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXcq92HooLw

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Old 11-26-2010, 15:02   #60
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Originally Posted by Christof60 View Post
..It seems that if you decide to go full auto, or any of the other "special" tax stamps, you also forfeit your right to protection against unlawful search and seizure laws., i.e., they can enter your home any time and demand to look at whatever they want...
Untrue

Quote:
And I was told this by an LEO who has several full auto's, suppressors, and SBR weapons.. His words of advice to me "make sure you know what you are giving up to have a cool toy"...
He is wrong
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Old 11-26-2010, 16:29   #61
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Untrue


He is wrong
Now THAT is the mature way to answer that... I did state that this is what I was told by an LEO who had all the toys..

Now, just to play devils advocate here, can someone state how they know for sure that it is not the case??
I only ask, because 99% of you have no clue that a W2 is voluntary to fill out, and against federal law to be a requirement of employment.. It use to say it on the bottom of the form, which they stopped printing out decades ago (I assume so people didnt know it?) but remains the law... How do I know for a FACT?? Because I worked for a large corporation in 1998 and became friends with a former IRS agent... He told me where to look it up, and what do you know, he wasnt FOS... .I worked for them for two years after refusing to fill it out, and after a dozen meetings with the corporate tax attorneys, they agreed with me, one even stating "I have a degree in Tax law, and I didnt even know that"... So just because you THINK something isnt the case, doesnt make it so.. I will surely start a quest now to find out, because I could afford a silencer (but no way a full auto)..

So why can they enter/search a FFL dealer anytime, but NOT someone with full auto weapons? I am not saying you are not right, but that just does not make sense...

Anyone with actual law experience on this, or someone that could point me through the maze of federal law books, please feel free to point me in that direction...
I have never been one to believe/disbelieve that a law does/doesnt exist, and lord knows, that is about 99% of the county, I want to read it for myself...

I will be searching tonite.. Best to start at the BATF site, but also going to contact a couple people at the NRA..
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Old 11-26-2010, 16:42   #62
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Now THAT is the mature way to answer that... I did state that this is what I was told by an LEO who had all the toys..

Now, just to play devils advocate here, can someone state how they know for sure that it is not the case??
I only ask, because 99% of you have no clue that a W2 is voluntary to fill out, and against federal law to be a requirement of employment.. It use to say it on the bottom of the form, which they stopped printing out decades ago (I assume so people didnt know it?) but remains the law... How do I know for a FACT?? Because I worked for a large corporation in 1998 and became friends with a former IRS agent... He told me where to look it up, and what do you know, he wasnt FOS... .I worked for them for two years after refusing to fill it out, and after a dozen meetings with the corporate tax attorneys, they agreed with me, one even stating "I have a degree in Tax law, and I didnt even know that"... So just because you THINK something isnt the case, doesnt make it so.. I will surely start a quest now to find out, because I could afford a silencer (but no way a full auto)..

So why can they enter/search a FFL dealer anytime, but NOT someone with full auto weapons? I am not saying you are not right, but that just does not make sense...

Anyone with actual law experience on this, or someone that could point me through the maze of federal law books, please feel free to point me in that direction...
I have never been one to believe/disbelieve that a law does/doesnt exist, and lord knows, that is about 99% of the county, I want to read it for myself...

I will be searching tonite.. Best to start at the BATF site, but also going to contact a couple people at the NRA..
Great paper on Title 2 items.

LINK HERE.

A good discussion on 4th amendment rights in this paper.
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Old 11-26-2010, 16:44   #63
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So why can they enter/search a FFL dealer anytime,
They cannot do that either, without a warrant.
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Old 11-26-2010, 16:45   #64
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Great paper on Title 2 items.

LINK HERE.

A good discussion on 4th amendment rights in this paper.
Thank you so much... Going there right now..
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Old 11-26-2010, 16:53   #65
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They cannot do that either, without a warrant.
well I guess that makes two people FOS... The FFL dealer I have used for the last 5 yrs told me that also, and of late, is thinking of letting his license go.
To quote him "I just dont make that much doing this, and I dont know if it is worth the rights I gave up"...
Now this was when I was thinking of getting my own FFL, because I am tired of always paying the $30 just to have someone have ME fill the paperwork out..
I was shocked to find out that you can no longer get an FFL license unless you are going to do the business out of a building that is not your home. Cant even be your garage or building on your residence property.. No more easy FFL..
And THAT, I got directly from the BATF...
Anyway, Bruce (my FFL) told me that in the myriad of forms and papers, it doesnt state it in plain english, but he had his lawyer go through it prior to sending it in, and his lawyer told him what he was giving up to have the FFL..

And again, I am NOT saying I know anything other than what I am told, but being told by someone who HAS the license and has FULLY researched it (rather than doing as most of us do.. "Yeah yeah, blah blah blah, where do I sign this darn thing") is one thing, being told by someone on an internet site who has an OPINION about the subject is completely different..

Thanks for the link...
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Old 11-26-2010, 17:03   #66
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Got this from an NFA site...
Quote:
One common misconception is the belief that you give up your rights to search and seizure, and that BATFE agents may inspect your home at will, with no need for a warrant. That is patently false. You do not give up your rights. If an agent of the BATFE wants to enter your home, they must have a warrant, or probable cause that a crime is being committed. Simply owning a registered NFA weapon is not probable cause. And, if BATFE agents want to enter your home, you must have been doing something you shouldn’t have been doing in the first place.
Nice to know that people on here can actually help... I will keep researching though, I want to make sure the Homeland Security Act hasnt changed anything, you know, the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing...
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Old 11-26-2010, 17:05   #67
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well I guess that makes two people FOS... The FFL dealer I have used for the last 5 yrs told me that also, and of late, is thinking of letting his license go.
To quote him "I just dont make that much doing this, and I dont know if it is worth the rights I gave up"...
Without a warrant, they can only come during business hours. Searches and hostile encounters are highly unusual. I have never heard of anyone having problems tat was not in violation of their own doing.

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I was shocked to find out that you can no longer get an FFL license unless you are going to do the business out of a building that is not your home. Cant even be your garage or building on your residence property.. No more easy FFL..
That is not true either. As long as there are no zoning issues, you can operate out of your home. I know a dozen or more folks who do it.
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Old 11-26-2010, 19:37   #68
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Old 11-26-2010, 20:07   #69
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Here is the new Remington MSR that I was testing. The gun was equipped with an AAC suppressor and Schmitt & Bender glass, IMO, the best feature of this suppressor is the degree to which it dampens the recoil. Chambered in .300 Win Mag for instance, you'd think you were shooting a 5.56. Unfortunately, all MSR's at least for now, will be shipping to the DOD. The gun comes with 3 barrels with matching bolt heads in .308, .300 Win Mag, and .338 Lapua. Incredible long range accuracy.

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Old 11-27-2010, 12:22   #70
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That is not true either. As long as there are no zoning issues, you can operate out of your home. I know a dozen or more folks who do it.
For how long??
I got all the paperwork and began filling it out (two years ago) and right where it says "address" it mentioned something about a "qualifying address" or something of that sort... I called them up for clarification, and they told me that I could not use my home address as the business address, nor could I use any buildings or my garage as the business address... So in short, unless I rent another place, I could not get it... I asked them why most of my FFL contacts did it from their home, and they told me that "they are grandfathered in"....

She also said that if I sent in the paperwork and it had my home address, I would not get approved and would lose any fee's paid.. OR... If they found out I was using an address that was in reality not being used for business, I could face jail time and/or fines..

That came strait from the BATF...
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Old 11-27-2010, 12:33   #71
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Been digging into this subject more and more since I am still kind of miffed that I couldnt apply for an FFL... The "zoning" thing listed by a couple posters seems to be the issue... So basically, if your home is in an area that is not zoned commercial, it will be turned down..
Of course I dont, and have never owned a home that was in a commercially zoned area. I'm sure some people do, but 99% of us live in residential zones... This seems to have been started while Clinton was in office, admittedly the BATF says they are trying to reduce the number of people selling guns from their homes... They also are crossing over the states rights issue, and it is unconstitutional, but how can you fight them?

So, although it is being portrayed here that "you can be an FFL dealer in your home", tossing in the zoning thing almost as a sidenote, that one "little" caveat knocks nearly all of us out of the FFL arena...

Will keep digging...
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Old 11-27-2010, 14:42   #72
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Been digging into this subject more and more since I am still kind of miffed that I couldnt apply for an FFL... The "zoning" thing listed by a couple posters seems to be the issue... So basically, if your home is in an area that is not zoned commercial, it will be turned down..
No, you just need to make sure home-based businesses are legal. The actual zoning name is irrelevant.

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So, although it is being portrayed here that "you can be an FFL dealer in your home", tossing in the zoning thing almost as a sidenote, that one "little" caveat knocks nearly all of us out of the FFL arena...
No, the majority of FFLs are probably home based. Zoning is an easy issue in most states.

I suggest you D/L the FFL list from atf web site, look up FFLs in your zip code, and see how many operate from the home.
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Old 11-27-2010, 19:16   #73
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I suggest you D/L the FFL list from atf web site, look up FFLs in your zip code, and see how many operate from the home.
You dont think I did? Hell, at least half of them are... That is why I wanted to do it... But what do you do when an BATF tells you not to waste your time (or money)?
When I got my CCW here in Florida, I had the same type of crap... I had taken a CCW course back in the 80's, and after several months of waiting, called them up... "We arent sure the signature on the Certificate is legitimate"... Great... The guy who taught the class (one of my college professors) had passed years ago..

Just happened to come up in the conversation that I was a vet... All I had to do then was fax a copy of my DD214 into them and got the license about 2 weeks later...

The BATF lady told me that before they issue the license, an inspection is made of the business place.. Is THAT true? Because she said if they found I was going to operate it out of my home after I told them I wasnt, I could be arrested..

It shouldnt be so hard to trust our Govt, OR, do the right thing and file the paperwork..
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Old 11-27-2010, 20:00   #74
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You dont think I did? Hell, at least half of them are... That is why I wanted to do it... But what do you do when an BATF tells you not to waste your time (or money)?
Fill out the application, send it in.

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The BATF lady told me that before they issue the license, an inspection is made of the business place.. Is THAT true? Because she said if they found I was going to operate it out of my home after I told them I wasnt, I could be arrested..
Yes there is an inspection. Make sure you have your ducks in a row. As long as you tell the truth on your app, no problem.
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Old 11-28-2010, 02:26   #75
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The law allows a FFL dealer to transfer firearms at their licensed address or a gun show in their state of license.

So yes if you license one address and do business at another they would shut you down, the same as if the local retail gun shop starts selling guns in the parking lot of WalMart.

Either your location allows home based business or you rent out the back 50square feet of some retail business in town and transfer guns there.

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