[MinervaDoe]

Originally Posted by glock20c10mm

Do you have a clue to why? And maybe a factual one (or two, or...)at that?


1) You see a massive change toward plastic framed platforms that are much lighter in weight, including for the 10mm Auto!

2) You see all kinds of makes of sidearms with interchangeably adjustable grips for hand size. And when you don't, there have even become Glocks in a lineup refered to as "SF". Ever hear of that?

3) You see the 357SIG!

4) Even in 9mm you see a whole lot of +P/+P+ ammo being used.

5) You see the FBI still using the watered down 10mm load in a new form. Though with different bullet weights.

6) You see many state and federal agencies going to lighter weight bullets.

7) You still see a lack of training from many departments. Yeah, gotta take the good with the bad.


So overall what do you see?

1) You see required platform size being much less meaningful than it ever was in the past.

2) And you see a shift toward lighter-weight/higher-speed bullets in various calibers. READ; HIGHER ENERGY!!! (Except in the 45Auto. )


You sure were lost! Glad to have helped you see some truth.

What load is it you carry again?


Good Shooting,
Craig

When you get into discussing modern trends, I believe that one other factor is very relevant. Modern hollow points are vastly superior to what was available when the FBI did its administrative about face. Back then, we worried whether the jacket from the hollow point was going to separate from the lead in the bullet once it hit the target. Now days, hollow points open more consitently and shed their jackets a lot less frequently. A rounds effectiveness can now more or less be tailored to a specific velocity. In the case of the 10mm, a late opening, high retained mass hollowpoint will give the cartridge considerably improved terminal ballistics over anything tested in the original FBI trials.

[glock20c10mm]

Originally Posted by MinervaDoe

Did you understand the Phds analysis that having more foot pounds of energy leads to more neurogenic shock (which leads to higher rate of incapacitation)?

The poster probably assumed that folks could do the math themselves.

I can help you with the math. I'll grab a couple of loads out of my very conservative Hornady manual (both are one step down from maximum).

A .40 S&W 155 grain bullet going 1150 fps produces 455 foot pounds of energy.
A .10mm 155 grain bullet going 1400 fps produces 674 foot pounds of energy.
That's nearly 1/3 more energy = more neurogenic shock.

Whether you, the shooter, can put the round on target is up to you.

btw, a 9mm +P 115 grain bullet travelling 1250 fps produces 399 foot pounds of energy, so the .40 S&W is much closer to the 9mm in performance than it is to the 10mm.

Well said.

And to add to the above is where it was pointed out in the paper; "...loads that can produce over 1000 PSI in the chest tend to be more effective." , not to mention explaining the correlation(s) from other scientific studies.

And it was explained how to calculate peak ballistic pressure wave p = (5*E)/(pi*d). Not to mention how fragmentation of a bullet adds to psi of peak ballistic pressure wave, along with that a bullet is suggested to reach a penetration depth of 9.5" or more for any given psi level to have the desireable possible effects of incapacitation in less than 10 seconds.


Examples of psi levels from specific loads:

Speer 38 Special 135gr +P Gold Dot = 361psi

Speer 9mm 147gr Gold Dot = 401psi

Federal 9mm 124gr HST = 501psi

Federal 9mm 124gr +P HST = 605psi

Winchester 9mm 127gr +P+ = 691psi

Double Tap 9mm 115gr +P Gold Dot = 813psi

Double Tap 357SIG 115gr Gold Dot = 955psi

Double Tap 9X25 Dillon 125gr Gold Dot = 1051psi

Winchester 40S&W 180gr Bonded = 402psi

Winchester 40S&W 180gr T-series = 524psi

Federal 40S&W 165gr HST = 637psi

Double Tap 40S&W 155gr Gold Dot = 825psi

Winchester 45Auto 230gr Bonded = 506psi

Federal 45Auto 230gr +P HST = 603psi

Remington 45Auto 185gr Golden Saber = 716psi

Double Tap 45Auto 185gr Gold Dot = 923psi

Double Tap 10mm 200gr XTP = 680psi

Double Tap 10mm 180gr Golden Saber = 844psi

Double Tap 10mm 165gr Golden Saber = 964psi

Double Tap 10mm 155gr Gold Dot = 1326psi

Double Tap 10mm 135gr Nosler JHP = 2131psi (not a misprint and based on 60% fragmetation)

Note that all the above examples do reach at least 12" penetration depth in clothed gel per FBI protocol.

Hope that gives some perspective for those wondering.


Good Shooting,
Craig

[glock20c10mm]

Originally Posted by MinervaDoe

When you get into discussing modern trends, I believe that one other factor is very relevant. Modern hollow points are vastly superior to what was available when the FBI did its administrative about face. Back then, we worried whether the jacket from the hollow point was going to separate from the lead in the bullet once it hit the target. Now days, hollow points open more consitently and shed their jackets a lot less frequently. A rounds effectiveness can now more or less be tailored to a specific velocity. In the case of the 10mm, a late opening, high retained mass hollowpoint will give the cartridge considerably improved terminal ballistics over anything tested in the original FBI trials.

I agree that modern JHP is overall better than most old school JHP.

BUT, as long as a load penetrates far enough every time, in conjunction with that, I'll take all the framention and jacket loss possible. Jacket loss and fragmentation are only a bad thing when the bullet doesn't penetrate deep enough. Beyond that, if you are the shooter, they are your friend.

[MinervaDoe]

Originally Posted by glock20c10mm

I agree that modern JHP is overall better than most old school JHP.

BUT, as long as a load penetrates far enough every time, in conjunction with that, I'll take all the framention and jacket loss possible. Jacket loss and fragmentation are only a bad thing when the bullet doesn't penetrate deep enough. Beyond that, if you are the shooter, they are your friend.

It's funny that all of the modern police criteria require a high retained mass, even though the 125 grain .357 Magnum (which all other rounds are compared to) did fragment.

It's almost as though they were not paying attention to the relevent facts.

[SDGlock23]

Originally Posted by MinervaDoe

I can help you with the math. I'll grab a couple of loads out of my very conservative Hornady manual (both are one step down from maximum).

A .40 S&W 155 grain bullet going 1150 fps produces 455 foot pounds of energy.
A .10mm 155 grain bullet going 1400 fps produces 674 foot pounds of energy.
That's nearly 1/3 more energy = more neurogenic shock.

Whether you, the shooter, can put the round on target is up to you.

btw, a 9mm +P 115 grain bullet travelling 1250 fps produces 399 foot pounds of energy, so the .40 S&W is much closer to the 9mm in performance than it is to the 10mm.

Let me say I love the 10mm, fantastic cartridge. I also love to shoot .40, and ultimately shoot more .40 than 10mm. But the only reason I'm even quoting the above is that while these may have come out of a load manual, it's not really a true comparison of either one's power (I do understand the author said these were conservative). 1400 fps for a 155gr 10mm is warm yes, but not "hot". But I can take my Glock 23 and get near 1400fps using a 155gr JHP (VV 3n38 for those wondering does fantastic using both the 155gr and 165gr in .40).

I've gotten over 1500 fps with a 155gr out of my G20 before yes, but interestingly, using 800x I've gotten that out of a 6" .40 SW too...and the brass looked better! Not arguing at all, but I do disagree that the .40 is closer to the 9mm than 10mm, clearly the .40 is closer to the 10mm than the 9mm, since with "hot" loads in either, there's only a 150 to 200fps difference using the same wt. bullet.

Now if the 9mm was getting close to warm .40's using the same wt bullet (like the .40 does with the 10mm), then perhaps there would be some truth in the statement made that the .40 is closer to the 9mm, but that's not the case. When you compare "energy", yes a typical .40 is close to some 9's, but we all know it's not just about "energy".

[glock20c10mm]

Originally Posted by SDGlock23

I do disagree that the .40 is closer to the 9mm than 10mm

Even in factory ammo? Or are you limiting that statement to handloads/reloads?

[glock20c10mm]

Originally Posted by MinervaDoe

It's funny that all of the modern police criteria require a high retained mass, even though the 125 grain .357 Magnum (which all other rounds are compared to) did fragment.

It's almost as though they were not paying attention to the relevent facts.

[Glolt20-91]

Originally Posted by glock20c10mm

Well said.

And to add to the above is where it was pointed out in the paper; "...loads that can produce over 1000 PSI in the chest tend to be more effective." , not to mention explaining the correlation(s) from other scientific studies.

And it was explained how to calculate peak ballistic pressure wave p = (5*E)/(pi*d). Not to mention how fragmentation of a bullet adds to psi of peak ballistic pressure wave, along with that a bullet is suggested to reach a penetration depth of 9.5" or more for any given psi level to have the desireable possible effects of incapacitation in less than 10 seconds.


Examples of psi levels from specific loads:

Speer 38 Special 135gr +P Gold Dot = 361psi

Speer 9mm 147gr Gold Dot = 401psi

Federal 9mm 124gr HST = 501psi

Federal 9mm 124gr +P HST = 605psi

Winchester 9mm 127gr +P+ = 691psi

Double Tap 9mm 115gr +P Gold Dot = 813psi

Double Tap 357SIG 115gr Gold Dot = 955psi

Double Tap 9X25 Dillon 125gr Gold Dot = 1051psi

Winchester 40S&W 180gr Bonded = 402psi

Winchester 40S&W 180gr T-series = 524psi

Federal 40S&W 165gr HST = 637psi

Double Tap 40S&W 155gr Gold Dot = 825psi

Winchester 45Auto 230gr Bonded = 506psi

Federal 45Auto 230gr +P HST = 603psi

Remington 45Auto 185gr Golden Saber = 716psi

Double Tap 45Auto 185gr Gold Dot = 923psi

Double Tap 10mm 200gr XTP = 680psi

Double Tap 10mm 180gr Golden Saber = 844psi

Double Tap 10mm 165gr Golden Saber = 964psi

Double Tap 10mm 155gr Gold Dot = 1326psi

Double Tap 10mm 135gr Nosler JHP = 2131psi (not a misprint and based on 60% fragmetation)

Note that all the above examples do reach at least 12" penetration depth in clothed gel per FBI protocol.

Hope that gives some perspective for those wondering.


Good Shooting,
Craig

Sorry Craig, but there's no way to predict incapacitation times on a motivated felon using your equation.

Bob

[glock20c10mm]

Originally Posted by Glolt20-91

Sorry Craig, but there's no way to predict incapacitation times on a motivated felon using your equation.

Bob

I don't recall saying there was?

[Glolt20-91]

Originally Posted by MinervaDoe

It's funny that all of the modern police criteria require a high retained mass, even though the 125 grain .357 Magnum (which all other rounds are compared to) did fragment.

It's almost as though they were not paying attention to the relevent facts.

The reputation of the .357mag was gained by its use of 158gr lead, and by the late 60s, jacketed hollow point bullets. Most of the departments in the state I worked in felt that the 125gr JHPs were not as effective as the 158gr JHPs.

Apparently Paco Kelly agreed;

While a law enforcement officer with over 30 years, and 23 years of that, just in the drug control and homicide areas...I had the opportunity to see at extremely close hand the results of way over a dozen shootings involving the 357...and had agency records on hundreds more. There is no argument for me as to the 357s ability as a defense caliber with the right ammunition. One of my ancillary duties at one time, was as the Chief Firearms Officer for DEA for the Southern District of Arizona. But I was privy to all shootings occurring everywhere, in the Department of Justice agencies, for more than a decade. At the time a number of those agencies were required to carry the 357. So there were lots of that caliber involved in shootings. The general pubic has no idea as to the number of shootings in the enforcement arenas that go on each year. In fact the anti gunners love to add in the police shootings to the number of humans killed each year by handguns. Very tacky on their part. As most police agencies learned, the 357 is an exceptionally pragmatic and efficient weapon for enforcement purposes when loaded with the right ammo. Those in my agencies that carried the 357 had to carry as a minimum 158/160grain magnum plus P loads.

Bob

[glock20c10mm]

Originally Posted by Glolt20-91

The reputation of the .357mag was gained by its use of 158gr lead, and by the late 60s, jacketed hollow point bullets. Most of the departments in the state I worked in felt that the 125gr JHPs were not as effective as the 158gr JHPs.

Apparently Paco Kelly agreed;



Bob

Could you please highlight in one way or another where Paco even hinted toward; "Most of the departments in the state I worked in felt that the 125gr JHPs were not as effective as the 158gr JHPs."

Either I'm blind, or...I don't know what.

[MinervaDoe]

Originally Posted by SDGlock23

Let me say I love the 10mm, fantastic cartridge. I also love to shoot .40, and ultimately shoot more .40 than 10mm. But the only reason I'm even quoting the above is that while these may have come out of a load manual, it's not really a true comparison of either one's power (I do understand the author said these were conservative). 1400 fps for a 155gr 10mm is warm yes, but not "hot". But I can take my Glock 23 and get near 1400fps using a 155gr JHP (VV 3n38 for those wondering does fantastic using both the 155gr and 165gr in .40).

I've gotten over 1500 fps with a 155gr out of my G20 before yes, but interestingly, using 800x I've gotten that out of a 6" .40 SW too...and the brass looked better! Not arguing at all, but I do disagree that the .40 is closer to the 9mm than 10mm, clearly the .40 is closer to the 10mm than the 9mm, since with "hot" loads in either, there's only a 150 to 200fps difference using the same wt. bullet.

Now if the 9mm was getting close to warm .40's using the same wt bullet (like the .40 does with the 10mm), then perhaps there would be some truth in the statement made that the .40 is closer to the 9mm, but that's not the case. When you compare "energy", yes a typical .40 is close to some 9's, but we all know it's not just about "energy".

I always use a conservative baseline and I always get a response like this. You have to ask yourself, do I always make the same mistake, or am I baiting you.

If I take 13 seconds to thumb through The Complete Relaoding Manual for the 10mm and .40 S&W, I find these loads
with a 10mm using 800-X and a 155 grain bullet going 1475 fps = roughly 799 ft lbs
the fastest 150 grain .40 S&W that I find in this manual goes 1285 fps = roughly 530 foot pounds
Still roughly 1/3 less energy

meanwhile, I dust off my old Speer #11 manual and I find a 115 grain 9mm load using HS6 which goes 1315 fps = about 450 foot pounds

Yup, the .40 S&W is still closer to the 9mm than it is to the 10mm

[Glolt20-91]

Originally Posted by glock20c10mm

Could you please highlight in one way or another where Paco even hinted toward; "Most of the departments in the state I worked in felt that the 125gr JHPs were not as effective as the 158gr JHPs."

Either I'm blind, or...I don't know what.

Read the last sentence of his quote.

Bob

[Glolt20-91]

Originally Posted by MinervaDoe

I always use a conservative baseline and I always get a response like this. You have to ask yourself, do I always make the same mistake, or am I baiting you.

If I take 13 seconds to thumb through The Complete Relaoding Manual for the 10mm and .40 S&W, I find these loads
with a 10mm using 800-X and a 155 grain bullet going 1475 fps = roughly 799 ft lbs
the fastest 150 grain .40 S&W that I find in this manual goes 1285 fps = roughly 530 foot pounds
Still roughly 1/3 less energy

meanwhile, I dust off my old Speer #11 manual and I find a 115 grain 9mm load using HS6 which goes 1315 fps = about 450 foot pounds

Yup, the .40 S&W is still closer to the 9mm than it is to the 10mm

And how well does the 155gr JHP penetrate at 1475fps, or does it simply blow up?

Bob

[bmoore]

Getting back on topic, glad you got the gun. I am a recent new owner of a Glock 20SF. Love the 10 mike mike!

[glock20c10mm]

Originally Posted by Glolt20-91

Read the last sentence of his quote.

Bob

That doesn't tell us why they used 158gr-160gr loads over a 125gr load, nor does it appear Paco had any choice in the decision.

Maybe at the time they needed a bullet with that high of sectional density to penetrate donkeys or something the same way we relate to shooting through car doors and windshields. I don't know.

Also interestingly enough, not only does it not say what commercial load was used, it doesn't say if the bullets were jacketed or not, let alone if they were FMJ or JHP IF they were jacketed.

Not to mention the fact that it doesn't appear in the modern day and age ANYONE recommends a 158gr-160gr bullet in 357 Magnum, let alone at +P levels for SD outside of woods carry.

IMO, you're really stretching for what Paco may or may not have thought. Like REALLY stretching!

[glock20c10mm]

Originally Posted by SDGlock23

But I can take my Glock 23 and get near 1400fps using a 155gr JHP (VV 3n38 for those wondering does fantastic using both the 155gr and 165gr in .40).

Is that over or at or under 35,000psi?

If "at" or "under", how do you know?

I've seen some pretty crazy loads worked up with 9mm and no blow out or kaboom. Doesn't mean it's a realistic load, or even available without rolling your own.

[MinervaDoe]

Originally Posted by Glolt20-91

And how well does the 155gr JHP penetrate at 1475fps, or does it simply blow up?

Bob

I don't think the retained mass matters much at 1475 fps. With 799 foot pounds of energy, anything it hits is going to look like hamburger. Remember, the 125 grain .357 had something like a 96% first shot stopping capability and it fragmented.

Here is a thread showing the retained mass of a 155 grain XTP going 1360 fps.
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1241500

No actual signs of it blowing up. Do you think another 100 fps is going to matter much (aside from creating a bigger the hydrostatic wound)?

[Glolt20-91]

Originally Posted by glock20c10mm

That doesn't tell us why they used 158gr-160gr loads over a 125gr load, nor does it appear Paco had any choice in the decision.

Maybe at the time they needed a bullet with that high of sectional density to penetrate donkeys or something the same way we relate to shooting through car doors and windshields. I don't know.

Also interestingly enough, not only does it not say what commercial load was used, it doesn't say if the bullets were jacketed or not, let alone if they were FMJ or JHP IF they were jacketed.

Not to mention the fact that it doesn't appear in the modern day and age ANYONE recommends a 158gr-160gr bullet in 357 Magnum, let alone at +P levels for SD outside of woods carry.

IMO, you're really stretching for what Paco may or may not have thought. Like REALLY stretching!

Lots of conjecture on your part Craig combined with an unsubstantiated, incorrect personal opinion.



Bob

[Glolt20-91]

Originally Posted by glock20c10mm

I don't recall saying there was?

Then I'm not sure why you posted those psi numbers. The psi numbers you calculated are insufficient to cause JHP deformation.

Bob

[Glolt20-91]

The 10mm is one of my favorite calibers to carry while working at my place whether on the ground or on the tractor. I load 180gr JHPs (Nosler, Golden Saber, Gold Dot and XTPs in the mid 1200s for best performance. High 1200s and up typically brings about bullet failure.

A bonded Winchester factory .40 S&W 180gr PDX bullet after penetrating a dried out range cow bone, captured in water;



A handloaded 10mm, Speer bonded 180gr Gold Dot at 1267fps after penetrating two 1.5mm steel barriers and a large range cow bone;



An old tech factory .45auto, 230gr Winchester USA JHP, retained bullet integrity penetrating a large range cow bone;



This 10mm 180gr Gold Dot came apart at 1296fps, recovered bullet weight was 118.7 grains, only 65.9% of its original weight;



Bob

[firemedic1343]

Wow, Bob, awesome pics as usual. Have you ever done any testing with the hardcast 220 grain Buffalo or hardcast 230 Grain Double Tap? If you haven't tested them, how do you think they'd perform?

Originally Posted by Glolt20-91

The 10mm is one of my favorite calibers to carry while working at my place whether on the ground or on the tractor. I load 180gr JHPs (Nosler, Golden Saber, Gold Dot and XTPs in the mid 1200s for best performance. High 1200s and up typically brings about bullet failure.

A bonded Winchester factory .40 S&W 180gr PDX bullet after penetrating a dried out range cow bone, captured in water;
Bob

[AZ Husker]

Swampfox has some impressive figures with their 175gr Silver Tip. Supposed to hold together very well. Any opinions there?

[Glolt20-91]

Originally Posted by firemedic1343

Wow, Bob, awesome pics as usual. Have you ever done any testing with the hardcast 220 grain Buffalo or hardcast 230 Grain Double Tap? If you haven't tested them, how do you think they'd perform?

Thank you, these bullet tests have been informative with some surprises.

I have a box of DT's 200gr WFNs and 230gr WFNs to do load development with. Both the G20 and G20SF have Lone Wolfe barrels, so the 230gr WFNs will stablize okay. I also have a 6" KKM barrel that's just begging to launch these slugs.

Bob

[Glolt20-91]

Originally Posted by AZ Husker

Swampfox has some impressive figures with their 175gr Silver Tip. Supposed to hold together very well. Any opinions there?

I have tested the 175gr ST through a 6" KKM barrel, 10.1grs of IMR 800X IIRC ballparked ~1389fps, did well on a 1.5mm hard steel barrier.

Here's the 800X flash signature;



It exhibits very aggressive expansion and it will frag a bit.

Bob