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Old 09-30-2010, 10:57   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by platoonDaddy View Post
When pushed further he stated he has been after them to include that statement in the Armour & owners manual.
Nothing goes into the manuals unless cleared by Glock headquarters in Europe. That's one of the reasons the last armorer manual revision took so long to be released, waiting for approval from headquarters.

Not an uncommon practice, either. Manufacturers want to be careful with what they allow published, even in restricted publications like armorer manuals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by platoonDaddy View Post

As previously stated the Gen 4 has MIM: extractor & firing pin. The impact of dry-firing with MIM could certainly damage them. When you clean your weapon, inspect them from time to time.
When S&W started receiving some complaints about their original machined stock strikers breaking when dry-fire was involved their engineers went back and reviewed striker design and manufacturing. After some exhaustive testing they determined that excessive dry-fire might cause some strikers to fail. I was told that the original MRBF done with the original striker indicated it wouldn't typically be likely fail until a high dry-fire cycle rate had occurred, but that's a mean figure and it doesn't mean an isolated striker might not fail at an earlier number of cycles. My original M&P strikers didn't exhibit any problems from dry-fire, but I didn't subject them to excessive dry-fire, just what was needed for initial familiarization and inspections.

The revised and improved striker design included a change to using MIM strikers. While some of the transition .45 strikers were still being machined from stock (I got one of them), I was told that all of the revised strikers will be changed over to MIM. Some striker spring changes will probably be involved due to mass changes, as well. S&W wouldn't have gone to using MIM strikers over their original machined strikers unless they felt it offered an improvement for both them and their customers and would resolve the issue being reported by a small number of customers.

The use of MIM in the automotive and firearms industries is a good thing, as long as the process is used for parts in which MIM manufacturing ism suitable ... and as long as the MIM process is done properly, of course.

I've seen more breakage and failure with forged and cast parts than I have MIM parts as an armorer for many S&W handguns. Ditto in some other makes of guns, as well. Just depends on how well the MIM was done.

I was told that although S&W uses a vendor to make their MIM parts, that they bought and own the MIM molds being used, which is one way to help make sure the quality of the parts is going to meet your specifications.
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:58   #82
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seriously people! just use a dang snap cap. those things are not that expensive.
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:28   #83
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Great Post Danny..Thanks again..Been trying to get this across to folks here for years but always turns into a pissing match..Even after tons of pics of damaged breach face..
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:49   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remat View Post
But who at Glock said it?
I have been told that no Glocks are made in the U.S. by Glock Inc, in Smyrna too.

I want to see it in writing on official GLOCK letterhead. Unlike previous posters I would also accept word-of-mouth from Gaston Glock also.
I agree.

I'm not doubting the OP, but documentation that can be copied and pasted all over creation is, of course, the best evidence.
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:49   #85
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Originally Posted by speicher View Post

What confuses me, is knowing that we are now getting receivers in the 17,22,31 models being manufactured in Georgia and distributed in the U.S.
This of coarse is easily identified by the side of the receiver saying "Glock Inc. Smyrna GA." no "Made in Austria" on the receivers with those models anymore.
I can only speak for my Gen 4 G17, stamped on the right side of the receiver:

Made in Austria
Glock, Inc. Smyrna , Ga
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Old 09-30-2010, 12:17   #86
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It's not always reasonable to expect 'documentation' or someone revealing the name of their 'source' when some info like this is passed along from a manufacturer. Sometimes it's considered confidential until a 'formal' release is able to be done, and sometimes it's just something passed along as a courtesy to an armorer. Immediately broadcasting the name of the company employee might not exactly be in the best interest of either the employee or the armorer (if they want to continue receiving a such developing heads-up type info, anyway ).

Also, just because a manufacturer isn't ready to make a written notification in their owner and/or armorer manual materials yet, that doesn't mean they aren't quietly passing the info along to their certified armorers at some point. (The head's up thing when something has been observed, but may still be under review by the company regarding any official notification.) This happens among some of the other major firearms companies, too.

It's also handy to remember that armorer manuals aren't technical manuals. They're only intended to help trained armorers be better able to diagnose simple problems and make corrections or repairs in the field (meaning away from the factory), as well as maintain service weapons in optimal condition. While not many cops may do as much shooting as enthusiasts and competitors, their guns are arguably subjected to variable conditions and circumstances that can sometimes be a bit more abusive, or at least harder, on guns than those in the hands of private owners.

I remember when a rep told me he was recommending to his LE customers that they start replacing the recoil springs assemblies in the .40's at about 2,500 rounds, but he did say that it wasn't anything "official" from Glock at that time. Then, something like a couple of years later, during a recert armorer class I attended, it was said it was now recommended to replace the RSA's at 3,000 rounds. Then, a while later I received a copy of the wearable parts replacement schedule for LE .40's where it was recommended that RSA's were replaced in 22/22RTF/34's at 2,500 rounds, in 23/23RTF's at 2,000 rounds and in the G27 at 3,000 rounds.

Then there was the usual disclaimer that the RSA should be checked at each range session or qualification, using the standard Glock recoil spring field test as taught in the armorer class, and the RSA replaced more often as may be needed.

Then, when speaking with another rep I was told that the new Gen4 RSA's would probably be good for between 5,000 - 7,000 rounds. I expect that will be in writing when I go to my next armorer recert at some point.

Now, most privately owned Glocks will likely never be fired more than 500 rounds let alone 5,000 rounds (and some manufacturers have suggested an even lower round count is probably likely for the typical handgun owner). Enthusiasts and folks who enjoy various competitive venues are the exceptions, of course, and it's likely they have access to Glock armorers to keep their guns in optimal condition for extending usage, or they may have become armorers, themselves.
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Old 09-30-2010, 12:32   #87
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Danny....

Just want to put in my $.02 that you continue to post useful (and educational) information as you receive it. Please don't allow the bickering from a few prevent the rest of us from having access to knowledge as it becomes available.

I think this is a *particularly* painful subject, as so many people have been told that it was okay to dry fire, and have done so for so many times... and now hear that Glock advises against it. Remember that most of these people LOVE their Glocks, so to hear they might have been doing something damaging to it makes them become defensive of their actions.

I, too, have done a bunch of dry firing with my Glock in the past... but now that I've read this, will start using Snap Caps (which I already have).
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Old 09-30-2010, 14:13   #88
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DannyR,

I forgot to thank you for the info.

fastbolt,

Thanks also for the great info.
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Old 09-30-2010, 14:18   #89
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De nada.
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Old 09-30-2010, 15:21   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coastal4974 View Post
Metal Injection Molding

oops, too late
Thanks!

I did a search and found that out, then edited my post to reflect that I knew.

Guess I never hit the SEND button...
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Old 09-30-2010, 15:46   #91
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I dry fire my glocks all the time because I like the trigger to the rear. No snap caps have ever been used in my Glocks. I don't even own a snap cap.
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Old 09-30-2010, 16:02   #92
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Originally Posted by nedfolks View Post
I dry fire my glocks all the time because I like the trigger to the rear. No snap caps have ever been used in my Glocks. I don't even own a snap cap.
The advice does not apply to dry firing the gun occasionally, such as we all need to do in order to decock the trigger.
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Old 09-30-2010, 16:53   #93
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Unfortunately, in anticipation of some of the flaming replies that are generated in reponse to a legitimate question, many of us who have been lurking on these discussion forums before joining don't ask a question. I started a verbal gun battle on a shotgun forum by asking whether I would notice much of a difference in the shooting characteristics of a plain round barrel vs. a ribbed barrel since I have only ever owned solid or vent rib shotguns. I was called everything from an "elitist prime donne" to a "*******king redneck retard." Which didn't hurt my feelings because I just consider the sources, but I still didn't get my question answered.

So, there are a lot of questions that never get asked for fear of getting flamed and still not getting an answer. I am a new Glock owner, but am very careful about asking a question in the wrong way. Just an observation from a new guy with no credentials. However, as a retired Army SGM, I think that I recall having some of these flamethrowers in my units. Character, or lack thereof, is demonstrated in both the written and spoken word.
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Old 09-30-2010, 17:34   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyR View Post
The official word from Glock is:

"If you’re going to dry fire onther than for disassembly, use a snap cap."
Yeah, "official" from where?
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Old 09-30-2010, 18:25   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
Yeah, "official" from where?
If you had read a little farther you would have seen it was from GLOCK INC.
Mr. Ryan isn't one to spread rumors here and knows what he speaks of.
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Old 09-30-2010, 18:28   #96
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Old 09-30-2010, 18:29   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick7938 View Post
Unfortunately, in anticipation of some of the flaming replies that are generated in reponse to a legitimate question, many of us who have been lurking on these discussion forums before joining don't ask a question. I started a verbal gun battle on a shotgun forum by asking whether I would notice much of a difference in the shooting characteristics of a plain round barrel vs. a ribbed barrel since I have only ever owned solid or vent rib shotguns. I was called everything from an "elitist prime donne" to a "*******king redneck retard." Which didn't hurt my feelings because I just consider the sources, but I still didn't get my question answered.

So, there are a lot of questions that never get asked for fear of getting flamed and still not getting an answer. I am a new Glock owner, but am very careful about asking a question in the wrong way. Just an observation from a new guy with no credentials. However, as a retired Army SGM, I think that I recall having some of these flamethrowers in my units. Character, or lack thereof, is demonstrated in both the written and spoken word.
While true it is a shame people behave like that.
I guess more gets done around here thru emails and PM's just because of this attiutide.
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Old 09-30-2010, 18:53   #98
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Danny,

Thanks for the useful information. Please ignore the few morons that want to argue with you.
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Old 09-30-2010, 21:29   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyR View Post
My 1996 G19 is approaching 75,000 fired rounds and countless thousands of dry fires.
All right. This is the real "data" that we need to know. Countless thousands of dry fires. That does not include the 75,000 fired rounds which actually has some material damaging effects to the breech face (due to impact fatigue during the casing pushing backward on the breech face).

As a material engineer.... I think it is O.K. to dry fire.....moderately....say a few hundred times a year. That's more that most people want to dry fire anyway.

So, why Glock advices to use snap-cap? "BE SAFE THAN SORRY" motto. I would advice the same thing....if I was working for Glock.
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Old 09-30-2010, 21:38   #100
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All right. This is the real "data" that we need to know. Countless thousands of dry fires. That does not include the 75,000 fired rounds which actually has some material damaging effects to the breech face (due to impact fatigue during the casing pushing backward on the breech face).

As a material engineer.... I think it is O.K. to dry fire.....moderately....say a few hundred times a year. That's more that most people want to dry fire anyway.

So, why Glock advices to use snap-cap? "BE SAFE THAN SORRY" motto. I would advice the same thing....if I was working for Glock.
But the majority of the breach face is contacted by the entire face of the casing, and as a whole it isn't as thin as it is immediately surrounding the firing pin hole. I believe the advice came about in order to prevent the weaker circle around the firing pin hole from becoming cracked and protruding, or because they have switched to MIM for the firing pin. We have seen pictures of the firing pin hole protruding in the past.
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