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Old 12-21-2010, 10:14   #81
Gallium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captains1911 View Post
So I guess the final answer is, it should be Image #2 by design and intent, as every handgun with non adjustable sights that I have ever owned or shot has been, but some guns may be defective and therefore will require either Image #1 or #3.
No. The final matter is, a consistent hold and picture are far more important than anything else.

Why does it matter what sight picture you use, so long as you are consistent, and have adjusted for the specific round you are shooting.

I say this "bullet" stuff because anyone who is shooting at 25 yards and beyond should and must already have a fine and detailed grasp of shooting fundamentals to be any good at it. In this thread I posted a picture of a (very typical for me) 5 shot group on a 3" post it note. This was a 1.5" group at 50ft (max distance at my range) shooting a factory stock Glock 17 RTF2 with factory plastic sights, using sight hold #3, two handed grip, standing without any sort of rest.


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Old 12-21-2010, 10:23   #82
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I was always taught #2.
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:01   #83
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I think the confusion is that O/P's question assumed there is no vertical adjustability in OE sights = how do I aim the gun to make it work as intended? I can relate, as this was the same question I had at the outset.

In reality, there is vertical adjustment via the different OE rear sight heights offered by Glock, and the shooter can also choose a prefered sight picture - so two separate variables there.

My two Glocks shoot a little differently in OE form, but both would shoot a tad low with picture #2 at defensive or match range (with 6.5mm R/S).

Under pressure of the timer, when my fundamentals start to erode, I will tend to shoot a bit low, so using #3 would be a hedge.

O/P's diagrams are somewhat misleading in that they portray F/S, R/S and target in equal focus. In reality, F/S dominates. For that reason, I find #3 very easy and intuitive for OE sights... until the range becomes great enough that the target is smaller than the F/S. My first thought on that was to stick with #3, and get a more slender F/S. Now that I have a little more experience, can definitely see the overall flexibility of #2, though. As technique improves, will probably gravitate toward #2.

But all things considered, as a rookie shooter, for classes, matches and just to learn visual, movement and trigger fundamentals, #3 worked fine for me in first year. Even if the gun were "sighted in" from the factory at #2, I would still be getting about the same number of A Zone hits using #3 inside of 20 yards or so.
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:25   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciolist View Post
I think the confusion is that O/P's question assumed there is no vertical adjustability in OE sights = how do I aim the gun to make it work as intended?
this is exactly what I've been trying to say (and said in Post #58) this entire time.
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Old 12-21-2010, 15:07   #85
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Originally Posted by Captains1911 View Post
this is exactly what I've been trying to say (and said in Post #58) this entire time.
Understood and agreed, but no one seems to be paying much attention, so thought I would add a voice.
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Old 12-21-2010, 16:01   #86
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Since you switched things around, I'll just say the 6 o'clock hold. I have quite a number of Glocks, and at 15 yards from a rest, they all shoot 1.5" higher than Point of Aim...with many different brands, calibers and weights of ammo.
Most recently, my new G19 and G36, 1.5" high at 15 yards.
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Old 12-21-2010, 17:00   #87
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In case there's anyone who hasn't had enough yet, here's an old post of mine on the subject. I'll have to split it into two posts as it has too many pictures in it for one post.
--------------------------------------------------------

Sight alignment: Front and rear sight aligned so the front sight fills in the rear notch evenly on both sides, and flat across the top.
The SHOT ShowCase



Sight picture with six o'clock hold: Sights aligned like above with the top edge of the front sight at the bottom edge of the bullseye. The reason for this hold is to provide a specific, repeatable point of aim as compared to trying to aim at an undefined point in the 'middle' of the target, which is very difficult to find on a consistent basis, especially at distance.
The SHOT ShowCase



Sight picture with three 'bullet holes' impacting the target at the point of aim: This is how most people would like to have their gun sighted in for most purposes - 'point of aim = point of impact'. Competitive bullseye shooters would have their gun sighted in so the bullets impact above the point of aim in the center of the bullseye so they can get the best score.
The SHOT ShowCase



Using the six o'clock hold allows the shooter to do his best/most consistent shooting which gives the best shot groups. Good shot groups make it much easier to make accurate sight changes so the point of aim can be 'moved' to the point of impact.

(next page)
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Old 12-21-2010, 17:01   #88
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A gun sighted in like this can be used to hit most anything, like a steel plate at 11 yards:
The SHOT ShowCase



Or a humanoid target up close:
The SHOT ShowCase



Or a humanoid target further away:
The SHOT ShowCase



Or a pop(soda) can at 50 yards:
The SHOT ShowCase


Also, the 'bullseye' target doesn't *have* to be round for those of you who may have a phobia* about bullseye shooting, it can be any shape as long as it gives the ability to aim at a specific, repeatable spot on the target. It should be about the same width as the front sight when aiming at it, and big enough to see at your chosen shooting distance without having to focus on it (your visual focus needs to be on your front sight).
The SHOT ShowCase

* Unfortunately all too many police/tactical/self defense trainers these days don't see the value of bullseye type target shooting, they seem to think it 'has nothing to do with COMBAT shooting', and they couldn't be more wrong. Use of the bullseye target is simply the best way for a shooter to learn the basic skills required for accurate shooting.....sight alignment and trigger control.

It's also a great aid in getting your gun sighted in correctly! We're not shooting S&W or Colt revolvers with sights that are *really* fixed anymore, we can and SHOULD adjust the sights to fit the individual shooting the gun.
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Old 12-21-2010, 17:35   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciolist View Post
I think the confusion is that O/P's question assumed there is no vertical adjustability in OE sights = how do I aim the gun to make it work as intended?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captains1911 View Post
this is exactly what I've been trying to say (and said in Post #58) this entire time.

I think you (Captain) are the one not understanding what people are saying.

What me, n Butch, and a couple of others have said, is, it does not matter WHICH you use to shoot, so long as you are consistent. If you fire one shot, at crosshairs using #1, and it is low, adjust the point of aim and continue shooting and continue to assess your results.

Ditto if you use 2, or 3.

What Butch has also said is, each of us is different, hold guns different, have different hand-eye co-ordination. There is no one size fits all. There is no universally "correct" way to put sights on a target. So long as you follow the primary fundamentals (maintain your sight picture, don't disturb this with arc of motion or trigger press, and follow thru), and note where your shots hit, you will have no issue.

THERE IS NO HARD AND FAST RULE FOR PUTTING A HANDGUN'S SIGHTS ON A TARGET.

'Drew
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Old 12-21-2010, 17:50   #90
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Originally Posted by NYC Drew View Post
I think you (Captain) are the one not understanding what people are saying.

What me, n Butch, and a couple of others have said, is, it does not matter WHICH you use to shoot, so long as you are consistent. If you fire one shot, at crosshairs using #1, and it is low, adjust the point of aim and continue shooting and continue to assess your results.

Ditto if you use 2, or 3.

What Butch has also said is, each of us is different, hold guns different, have different hand-eye co-ordination. There is no one size fits all. There is no universally "correct" way to put sights on a target. So long as you follow the primary fundamentals (maintain your sight picture, don't disturb this with arc of motion or trigger press, and follow thru), and note where your shots hit, you will have no issue.

THERE IS NO HARD AND FAST RULE FOR PUTTING A HANDGUN'S SIGHTS ON A TARGET.

'Drew
Nope, I absolutely don't understand. With any of my guns, if I consistently use Image #1, the POI will consistently be low. If I use Image #3, they will consistently be high.

The gun doesn't know or care who is holding it an shooting it, if the sights are aligned properly the gun is going to consistently shoot where it is pointed, whether it's me holding it, a buddy of mine, or if I put the gun in a vice to take the human element completely out of it. It doesn't matter, Image #2 is going to result in the POI = the center of the target.
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Old 12-21-2010, 17:52   #91
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oops, double tap
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Old 12-21-2010, 18:35   #92
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Butch,,

Thank you - that was clear, concise, and understandable.
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Old 12-21-2010, 18:48   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch View Post
Correct!

Everyone should sight in their gun so they will hit where they want to hit by holding the sights on the target the way they want to do it!

Myself, I use a hold similar to #2....unless I'm shooting competitive bullseye, then I use #1, but the gun is sighted in so the rounds will hit the center of the bullseye.


YUP! Better to go read my blog-> BLOG
Titles:
The six o’clock hold
Sighting in for Dummies
Trigger Control for Dummies
Use the Reset Luke….
Nomenclature the easy way
Glock Trigger Combinations
Trigger Spring Broke? Keep Shooting!
Using the Glock Magazine Loader
Tagged for my wife. Thanks
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Old 12-21-2010, 19:09   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captains1911 View Post
Nope, I absolutely don't understand. With any of my guns, if I consistently use Image #1, the POI will consistently be low. If I use Image #3, they will consistently be high.

The gun doesn't know or care who is holding it an shooting it, if the sights are aligned properly the gun is going to consistently shoot where it is pointed, whether it's me holding it, a buddy of mine, or if I put the gun in a vice to take the human element completely out of it. It doesn't matter, Image #2 is going to result in the POI = the center of the target.

Please show us a picture of your target (results) and the distance you are shooting.

It is factually incorrect for you to state, unequivocally, that sight picture #2 is the only result where that sight picture results in hits directly on the cross hairs of the target, since I've had factory Glocks right out the box that shot high, or low (two out of 12+ stock factory Glocks).

I've also had numerous (non factory) Glocks with incorrect rear <> front sights, as I've had SIGs whose front/rear sights were not matched up.

You shoot the gun, see where the shots hit, and either adjust the sights, change the sights, or change your sight picture. What's so hard in that to understand?

If you care, please post pictures of your targets and provide details on the distance, etc.

'drew
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Old 12-21-2010, 19:25   #95
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Originally Posted by NYC Drew View Post
Please show us a picture of your target (results) and the distance you are shooting.

It is factually incorrect for you to state, unequivocally, that sight picture #2 is the only result where that sight picture results in hits directly on the cross hairs of the target, since I've had factory Glocks right out the box that shot high, or low (two out of 12+ stock factory Glocks).

I've also had numerous (non factory) Glocks with incorrect rear <> front sights, as I've had SIGs whose front/rear sights were not matched up.


You shoot the gun, see where the shots hit, and either adjust the sights, change the sights, or change your sight picture. What's so hard in that to understand?

If you care, please post pictures of your targets and provide details on the distance, etc.

'drew
Like I said earlier, Image #2 by design, unless the gun (sights) are defective (i.e. not functioning as intended).

Sorry, I don't save my targets, but if I did I'm not sure what pics of them would prove.
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Old 12-21-2010, 20:05   #96
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in Butch's pics notice the Top of the front sight is Even with the Top of the rear sight.

the amount of space on either side of the front sight is Even.

And for you who might not know, Butch is the same Butch that Won the Gunny Challenge

Twice.
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Old 12-21-2010, 20:28   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captains1911 View Post
Like I said earlier, Image #2 by design, unless the gun (sights) are defective (i.e. not functioning as intended).

Sorry, I don't save my targets, but if I did I'm not sure what pics of them would prove.

Well for starters, if you're honest with yourself, how good a shot you are. I kinda filter who I engage in discussions / heed advice from based on their knowledge, training and experience on the subject matter.


Do me a favor, go read the US Army Marksmanship Unit's papers on sight alignment, and tell me when you find the part that supports your claim, that picture #2 from this thread is the only correct way to maintain the correct hold (sight alignment + sight picture) on a target.


Also google: "human eye relative to sight alignment".

Also,
Quote:
...Place the top edge of the front sight post on the aiming point of the target. It will be up to the individual shooter whether the top edge of the front sight post is just below the aiming point, or covers the aiming point.

Read more: How to Align Gun Sights | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_5690880_alig...#ixzz18nsAKues
I'm also curious to know where exactly you learned so solidly that the top edge of the sights MUST be held on the center of the target. In my over 500 hours of student and instructor level training (pistol), no one from none of the schools I've been to have ever insisted on this. All of them, almost to a fault have said what the AMU says, which is not what you are saying.

So, where did you glean this irrefutable knowledge from?

'Drew
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Old 12-21-2010, 20:54   #98
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For my Glocks, I agree with bentbiker. I shoot quite abit of GSSF indoor, so, for me I have to adjust my hold for 12ft, 25ft, 50 ft and then even at 75ft.

At 12ft, I have to use similar sight picture to your picture 3 (aiming a bit high). As I move out to 25 ft and 50 ft I move more to picture 2 (middle of the target).

I only use the 6 o'clock hold for bullseye shooting where I have adjustable sights. In the old bullseye days you had a log book to adjust the sights when changing your distance. We don't have that with fixed sights.
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Old 12-21-2010, 23:19   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC Drew View Post

Do me a favor, go read the US Army Marksmanship Unit's papers on sight alignment, and tell me when you find the part that supports your claim, that picture #2 from this thread is the only correct way to maintain the correct hold (sight alignment + sight picture) on a target.
Also google: "human eye relative to sight alignment".
In my over 500 hours of student and instructor level training (pistol), no one from none of the schools I've been to have ever insisted on this. All of them, almost to a fault have said what the AMU says, which is not what you are saying.
'Drew
+1
Anyone here who has participated in Bullseye shooting and has read or studied the primary aspects of this sport is aware that the 6 o'clock hold is the ONLY hold recommended by the national and international handgun marksmen who compete annually at Camp Perry.
Whether or not Glock pistols are "designed" for that type of sight alignment is unknown to me. However, my two latest Glocks, Gen3 19 + 36, do impact @ 1.4" higher than POA @ 10 yards, 2/3" group c-c, using a "traditional" six o'clock hold. My other Glocks, all fixed sights, exhibit similar behavior.
Extended to 25 yards, this would tend to place the bullets quite nicely in the middle of the standardized 25 yard Bullseye slow-fire target.

Here is the link to that AMU manal's Chapter 2 on Sight Alignment:
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter2.htm
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Old 12-22-2010, 03:18   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonnytoo View Post
...
Whether or not Glock pistols are "designed" for that type of sight alignment is unknown to me. ...



The primary problems here are ...

1. Folks think somehow that aiming a Glock is different than aiming a SIG, M&P, or any other type of semi auto pistol.

2. People think this question has not been asked, answered, tested, proven and put to good use many times in the past 50+ years.


It simply boils down to "equal height, equal light" + consistency + observing where your shots hit.

'Drew
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