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Old 12-22-2010, 07:26   #101
G36_Me
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Discussion on sight/hold never gets old

This is a good and important thread.

The link supplied to the reproduction of the AMU book starts with: "Sight alignment is the most important contribution to firing an accurate shot."

Does it really matter that this topic has been discussed a million times? No.

This topic never gets old. There are several variations of this discussion which are titled differently.
The topics might be head lined: sight picture, sight alignment, where to place the sights on the target, where to hold the gun on the target, etc. Each of the topics is actually a different but may be related topic of focus.

This is a 'go to school thread.'
If you don't want to go to school, don't read this thread. If you don't want to teach, don't read this thread. If you don't want to debate, don't read this thread.

If you're a crabby old poster, we love you, stick around, you're worth more being here than being gone. Just expect some of us to treat you like a burned out geriatric. Your points are always well made but sometimes lack patience. [I'm in this class at times.]

My understanding of the original question (to stay focused, even though others have taken the discussion off topic to "sight alignment", is that the question is about "hold". Let me define hold (my definition, not sure why). Hold = where do I place the aligned sights on the target to allow the bullet to hit the center.

So hold for the fixed sight Glock is what I am directly talking about here. To be exact, I'm talking specifically about my G17.

We MUST, of course, make some assumptions in the answer:
  • not changing ammo during the course of fire,
  • not changing the grip,
  • not changing the "sight alignment".
We are just addressing where to hold the aligned sights to hit the center of the target. My input is given above and has been proven on the firing line over and over again by me.

To let you know how important the hold level is, my current mantra when shooting GSSF indoor is:
Grip - (hold) Height - Trigger - Light

1st shot mantra:
Grip means to me to get a solid consistent grip
Height means to pay attention to the stage (12ft, 25 ft, 50 ft or 75 ft) to be sure I'm holding at the level I need to be to not shoot high or low
Trigger means to start the trigger squeeze
Light means to change the focus to the sight alignment (as per the AMU guidelines).

Shots 2 - 10 the mantra is shortened to:
Trigger
Light

Enjoy, learn, teach, Merry Christmas
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:07   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBH View Post

Were you in the Army? If so..did you shoot any hand guns? Have you never heard of the 6 o'clock hold?
Apparently nobody here was in the Service, as you guessed. Either that, or they have long-term memory loss. Or, they never shot Bullseye.
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:11   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC Drew View Post
And that gun had Glock plastic sights. I put the SIGHTS (actual dot) on what I want to shoot, not the top of the sight.

If it really was "that simple", would we be having a discussion about it?

'Drew
Many people black out the white dots, as they're useless. Most revolver sights don't have dots. If you use the dot, then the top of the sight will obscure your target, which doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
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Six o'clock hold is the way it's been done for centuries. But as someone earlier posted, the size of that target circle changes with distance. NRA targets do exactly the same thing: the bullseye diameter changes with distance.
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:13   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaNu1142 View Post
This thread is a comedy of errors... user "Kentucky Shooter" went back & reversed #1 and #2 AFTER being corrected by user "bentbiker". So now if you read "bentbiker"'s correction, it's wrong.

You guys have to take into account the 4th dimension.

Or someone could repost the original image with correct labels...
Heck, somebody screwed the moose on this one. You NEVER change it once it's posted. Nobody has the slightest idea what's going on.
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:19   #105
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Originally Posted by glock2740 View Post
I wish Hickock45 would chime in, because I'd really be interested in hearing what he had to say about it.
If I was Hickock, I'd run away from this one, because 1/2 of these posters will think he's nuts, and the other half don't have the slightest idea.
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Old 12-22-2010, 15:20   #106
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I am the OP for this thread and I never imagined that this thread would go where it has. I mentioned in the first post that I have the metal Glock factory night sights which are the three dot sights. It is super clear to me from my shooting experience that sight picture #2 is correct for these sights at least it is on my G23.

Many people are comparing the plastic Glock factory sights to the sight picture. I have no idea how those work as I have never used them.

But I just wanted to point out that I was trying to understand how the Glock factory night sights were setup.

Thanks
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Old 12-22-2010, 15:27   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom View Post
I am the OP for this thread and I never imagined that this thread would go where it has. I mentioned in the first post that I have the metal Glock factory night sights which are the three dot sights. It is super clear to me from my shooting experience that sight picture #2 is correct for these sights at least it is on my G23.

Many people are comparing the plastic Glock factory sights to the sight picture. I have no idea how those work as I have never used them.

But I just wanted to point out that I was trying to understand how the Glock factory night sights were setup.

Thanks
And I still firmly believe that for practical shooting distances (3-15 yards or so) they are intended by Glock to be used as shown in Image #2. At least all the ones I have ever handled are.

There are some individuals on here with a great deal of experience and knowledge, however they seem to be grossly over-complicating the matter. It's almost like they're suggesting that for a given gun, sight picture, and distance, the POI will vary by shooter. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that one.
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Old 12-22-2010, 16:17   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonnytoo View Post
Apparently nobody here was in the Service, as you guessed. Either that, or they have long-term memory loss. Or, they never shot Bullseye.
Sonnytoo
I was in the service and didn't know what a 6 o'clock was. You should have said Army or Marines. In Navy boot camp we were taught pretty much how not to blow our foot off and I never picked up another weapon in my 4 years. My "weapon" was a Simpson multi-meter!
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Old 12-22-2010, 18:06   #109
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I'm siding with Drew on this one. You do what works for YOU.

What else really matters?
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Old 12-22-2010, 18:50   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorcyclist View Post
I was in the service and didn't know what a 6 o'clock was. You should have said Army or Marines. In Navy boot camp we were taught pretty much how not to blow our foot off and I never picked up another weapon in my 4 years. My "weapon" was a Simpson multi-meter!
I apologize for making assumptions that every military person has received weapons training. And thank you for your service.
p.s. I used a Simpson also, but had Army training.
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Old 12-22-2010, 23:08   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captains1911 View Post
And I still firmly believe that for practical shooting distances (3-15 yards or so) they are intended by Glock to be used as shown in Image #2. At least all the ones I have ever handled are.

There are some individuals on here with a great deal of experience and knowledge, however they seem to be grossly over-complicating the matter. It's almost like they're suggesting that for a given gun, sight picture, and distance, the POI will vary by shooter. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that one.
Right. I saw your posts, and we agree that the gun will do the exact same thing every time. People can hold the gun sideways and if they use sight picture #2 it will be accurate every time at least my G23 with Glock factory night sights would be.
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Old 12-22-2010, 23:45   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom View Post
Right. I saw your posts, and we agree that the gun will do the exact same thing every time. People can hold the gun sideways and if they use sight picture #2 it will be accurate every time at least my G23 with Glock factory night sights would be.
One specific gun will, but the next one may not. Then the shooter must either change the sights (sight it in), or hold 'off' to hit the desired spot.

In a perfect world, every Glock would come out of the box shooting perfectly to point of aim which would require that your sight picture #2 to be used. But it's not a perfect world.
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Old 12-23-2010, 03:38   #113
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Crom, and Captain1911,

I ask you this: What distances do you typically shoot at, and with what ammo, and what are your results?

This thread and some of the responses remind me of the threads on where folks want to put a "match grade" barrel in their Glocks to "tighten up" the accuracy. When you inquire what their shooting skills are, it is generally no where near where such skills would see much use or benefit of a match grade barrel.

So I ask again, at what level are your respective shooting skills? Because believe it or not, the level of your skills will determine your ability to differentiate between the same exact metal night sights on two identical Glock models. This is what Butch and I have repeatedly been underscoring. Glock has never, to my knowledge issued a hard and fast rule for where to place the sights to make hits or tiny groups.

If anything, most schools of defensive/combat shooting are telling you to put the muzzle of the gun on whatever it is you want to shoot/destroy; and this is what Gunsite/Cooper's #2 rule for gun safety says. When you are training with the gun as a fighting weapon, you do not do anything else but #3 - you put the sights ON the target (if you have time for a sighted shot). Of course, this is contingent on distance, and mobility of either the target or shooter.

In the final analysis, despite what any of the more strident folks here are saying - and particularly since they cannot provide any real source as to what hold is correct, it is generally taught in the military, for bullseye competition, in the NRA (civilian and LE) and at most of the more popular shooting academies that one should not get too wound up on using #1, #2 or #3, but should instead pay more attention to a correct sight picture, sight alignment and consistent hold.

It's not THAT complicated.

'Drew
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Old 12-23-2010, 05:38   #114
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#2. Draw an X or a + on the center of the target. Using hold #2, aim at where the lines intersect, and take 3-4 carefully aimed, SLOW fire shots, from 5-7 yards away. If you are not hitting EXACTLY where the lines cross, something is wrong with you (trigger control, follow through, grip etc.), or something is wrong with your gun (sights). Thats it period.
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Old 12-23-2010, 06:07   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darqnezz View Post
#2. Draw an X or a + on the center of the target. Using hold #2, aim at where the lines intersect, and take 3-4 carefully aimed, SLOW fire shots, from 5-7 yards away. If you are not hitting EXACTLY where the lines cross, something is wrong with you (trigger control, follow through, grip etc.), or something is wrong with your gun (sights). Thats it period.

This may be correct for 5-7 yards. Glocks are zeroed (the point at which the sights and the bore axis intersect) for 25 yards.

So, if you are shooting at 25 yards directly at an x on target, with proper use of the fundamentals, your shot should be directly on target. When the bullet leaves the barrel, it is already somewhere between 0.100" ~ 0.300" depending on what sights you have on the gun. (Factory night sights are approx 0.165")

But if we're gonna split hairs, at any distance closer, your point of impact should be below your point of aim by the difference between the top of the sights and the bore of the gun (typically 0.165" for Glock factory night sights), taking into consideration what distance you are shooting.

But that's only if you really wanted to get "technical".

'Drew
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Old 12-23-2010, 13:03   #116
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Sight picture #3 is the most difficult , if you shoot paper targets. This is because your POI is always behind the front dot and the front sight partially obscures your target dot if it's a small dot. To get the best compromise I like the #2 picture. This gives a good POA and does'nt cover part of your target. Night sights usually are #3 or [ dead on] for combat where you mostly care about center mass hits . First thing I do when I buy a Glock pistol is to get rid of the stock rear sight and install the rear adjustables you can order for $25.00 or so from two well known mail order companies. Easy to install yourself with simple tools such as a well made punch with a good square surface so it does'nt slip and marr the stock rear sight you may want to save, and a brass hammer. Looking from the rear of the pistol , gently tap out to your right untill it slips out of the dovetail ,and install your new from right to left , looking from the rear as in shooting.
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Old 12-23-2010, 18:21   #117
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I've been trained to cover whatever your shooting at with your front sight. But then I don't shoot bullseye but for combat/defense.
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Old 12-23-2010, 21:14   #118
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I use a 1" diameter "dot" @ 10 yards. Align the top of the sights (NOT the dots) at the BOTTOM of the dot and use a bench-rested wrist position. This lets you know where your gun hits at distances that really count. You are not likely to have to shoot much at targets 25 yds away. I guess that Glock feels that dots may be easier to see under some lighting conditions. I have always ignored the dots. My revolvers never have dots.
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Old 12-24-2010, 05:10   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hongster View Post
I've been trained to cover whatever your shooting at with your front sight. But then I don't shoot bullseye but for combat/defense.
B-i-n-g-o.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonnytoo View Post
I use a 1" diameter "dot" @ 10 yards. Align the top of the sights (NOT the dots) at the BOTTOM of the dot and use a bench-rested wrist position. This lets you know where your gun hits at distances that really count. You are not likely to have to shoot much at targets 25 yds away. I guess that Glock feels that dots may be easier to see under some lighting conditions. I have always ignored the dots. My revolvers never have dots.
Sonnytoo
Sonny, of the 100 + responses in this thread with over 20 unique contributants, how many of these 20 peope do you think can shoot a 1" group at 10 yards?

And, do you think the results are going to matter much at 10 yards shooting a 1" dot using #2, or #3?

The point is, we've been fluffering about a point that is relatively meaningless when we take into consideration
  • the design of the gun
  • it's intended use
  • skills set of the majority of operators (users) under a typical bell curve
  • the standard deviation in POI when looking at "x" number of Glocks.
Which is why some of us have maintained from the onset that #1, 2 or 3 is not.

If I were to take any of my (in my hands) most accurate Glocks (G37, G24, G17L, G35 with KKM 357SIG barrel) and shoot them at 10 yards using #2 or #3, the results would be at the most 1/0th of an inch different. At 15 yards (45 feet), the results would still be 1/10th of an inch different - just a about twice the difference between the top of my sight and the center of the dot on my sight.

At 25 yards (if I had a 25 yard range I would try it), you are now DEEP into the area of where the limits of accuracy of the pistol are greater that quibbling over #2 or #3. Even if you locked the gun into sturdy rest, you could not, and would not get results (at 25 yards) that are conclusive for anything.

Beyond 25 yards the ballistics of handgun rounds in Glock length barrels start behaving in ways not conducive for testing this type of detail (typically bullet drop).

I think I am now done on the subject, except I am genuinely curious - as a student who believes learning is continuous - to hear from Captains1911 as to where he received instruction on that #2 is the correct hold.

I am not trying to ram home a point. I am merely trying to find out where this information emanated from, and who/how/why they arrived at this conclusion (ie, the logic behind this).

'Drew
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Old 12-24-2010, 09:04   #120
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Quote:
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So, why don't you put a higher rear sight on it?
Good question. Unfortunately I dont have a good answer. To be honest, my groups are pretty lousy with Glocks in comparison to my 1911 or Sig. So I feel I need to learn to shoot it better before modifying it. Secondly, I know how it shoots, an as long as I know that its not really too much of a concern....
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