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Old 01-02-2011, 19:26   #126
themighty9mm
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Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
I'm curious but where in any military manuals; US and worldwide, I can find something that is called "Main Battle Rifle" or "Assault Rifle"? Definitions for these two things?

For the life of me, I never recalled any teachings in any TMs or FMs that called an M14 a "Main Battle Rifle" or an M16/M4 an "Assault Rifle".
While I also have not seen those terms with the exception of the news. I beleive the m16a4 is the MBR of the usa
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Old 01-02-2011, 19:29   #127
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Not really. The .308 was designed to kill. The 5.56 was designed to grievously wound.
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Old 01-02-2011, 19:33   #128
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[QUOTE=AK_Stick;16569498]I know this, thats why if you notice, assault rifle was quoted.


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Originally Posted by G29Reload View Post
MORE accurate. A .308 in the right hands, particularly the M1A/M14 can easily kill a man at 800 yds. M1A's are frequently used in competition.

Yes, many M1a's are frequently used in competition, and in almost every single service rifle match I can find a posted listing of winners, scores and weapons used, the AR comes out on top. Including the king of all service rifle matches, at Camp Perry every year, where an AR has won for over the last decade. It also takes quite a bit more to keep a M1a in match winning accurate trim than a AR-15. They have to be continually re-bedded, and worked on. Where as a free floated AR-15 with a decent trigger and barrel, is almost maintenance free

The same thing has been found when we re-issued the M14 as a DMR rifle. While they could be made accurate, it takes alot more time, parts, and money to keep them that way.

You are correct, if you put a round into center mass at 800 yds, a 308 will cleanly kill a person at that range. Then again, if you put a 5.56 round into center mass at that range, it will also cleanly kill someone. It doesn't bring as much energy to the table, but energy is only one part of the equation.



No, it really wasn't this is an old wives tale. Its directly against the Hague accords to do that. Why would we design a bullet to do something we've signed, ratified, and continually abided since its induction even when we don't have to?





Current USMC qual is all the way out to 500 yds with a known distance timed fire target, the Army trains to 300 yds on a popup rifle course.
Lol not sure how you are catching so much greif But just about everything you have posted, has been my experience If not my direct experience then the knowledge I have gained from others with much more real world experience than I. The last bit about quals. Spot on. The bit about m1a's. Nobody can argue they see alot of competitions. Alot more work is most definatly involved to keep ir running competition ready. Thus from a SHTF/accuracy stand point the M1a wouldnt be the most likely best choice. Sorry bout the luck man
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Old 01-02-2011, 19:35   #129
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very true, but still he made it seem as though no military experience=no skillz.


I no great shot, I admit. But I can hold my own out to a few hundred yards, with the only formal training I received from Boy Scouts...and my Dad. I see the need for a "main battle rifle" but in a SHTF, I'll have my 10/22 match rifle and my R700 in 308. Screw a semi-auto battle rifle, I want hidden and super accurate.
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Old 01-02-2011, 19:40   #130
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Originally Posted by themighty9mm View Post
While I also have not seen those terms with the exception of the news. I beleive the m16a4 is the MBR of the usa
Those monikers were coined by the dumbass gunzine writers of the 1980s.
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Old 01-02-2011, 20:31   #131
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I'm so very confused as to how you make out that the M14 is LESS accurate than the M16...

And that's very nice of you to assume all civilian shooters without your apparent expertise in shooting can't handle a 7.62MM
In stock form, it's less accurate. You can make an M14 pattern rifle more accurate, but it's expensive (if you're not a gunsmith), and requires work every few thousand rounds to stay accurate. With the AR, all you need is a better barrel, a free-float tube, and a torque wrench.

I like the SCAR 17. I think it's the best 7.62x51 fighting rifle ever made, bar none, and if it were my job to do what the Rangers, SEALs, etc. in Afghanistan were doing, it's what I'd want. However, I think quite a few people here do not have realistic expectations about what qualities would be most useful to them in a rifle to be used in the scenario we're talking about, and I also think that even accomplished shooters often overestimate their capabilities in such a situation. For example, in a truly chaotic situation where law and order have essentially ceased to exist, do you intend to engage in long-range ambushes and offensive sniping? Realistically, these comprise the majority of situations in which we're hearing about 700 yard+ kills in Afghanistan. Unless you want to attract the attention of the invading army, corrupt government forces, or band of looting cannibals, these sorts of attacks would be unwise.

If you don't intend to shoot at unsuspecting targets, consider the alternative situation. You're engaged in a firefight with a guy or guys at 600 or 700 yards. They're shooting back, which means your heart is probably pounding, and some adrenaline is kicking in. I don't care how cool a customer you think you are, kiss some of your potential accuracy goodbye. Your target knows he's being shot at, which means he's moving and keeping his head down. Your shot just got even harder. Also, remember that if you're smart, you'll be moving as well, which means that you won't be shooting from a prepared position; prone or an expedient rest like a log or tree is the best you can realistically hope for.

With the above situation in mind, think of the last time you shot at a man-sized silhouette at 500 yards. Have you done it kneeling, or from a hastily-assumed prone position? Had you been hiking around all day beforehand, or had you just sprinted ten or twenty yards and dropped to the ground or behind cover? For me, keeping rounds from a semi-auto even vaguely in the center of mass in a human-sized target at 500 yards is pretty challenging, to make no mention of a moving target that's partially (or mostly) obscured.

There are certainly things a 7.62x51 will do that a 5.56x45 will not do. If you choose a 5.56, it is possible that you will die because you lack the range and penetration of the 7.62. However, you have to weigh that against the possibility that if you choose the 7.62, you will be killed because you run out of ammo, cannot shoot as rapidly, or have to change magazines more frequently. Unless I found myself in one of a few very specific situations, I'd choose the 5.56 or 5.45 weapon for general use.
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Old 01-02-2011, 20:48   #132
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Read through all these posts. Why is it that people think all ARs are .223 only? Some damn accurate .308s are ARs.
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Old 01-02-2011, 20:50   #133
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I don't think many folks can exploit the accuracy and range advantages of a 7.62x51 rifle over a 5.56x45 rifle in a combat situation. In fact I'd say most folks couldn't use a 5.56x45 rifle at 300 yards very effectively either.

Before anyone protests... how many have even looked at a "Q-target" at 300 yards? Its not that easy to hit it. Now, what if the Q was kneeling, or prone... What if it was popping up (like the Army course)... It gets harder and harder... Now imagine that your pretty hungry... pretty sore... pretty tired... you may have had to run (I imagine that's hard enough for most individuals nowadays)...

Is there situations where 7.62x51 is an advantage, hell yeah... But it weighs more (the ammo and the rifle both generally), meaning you can carry less, kicks harder (slower followups, which you'll likely be needing)...

Me personally, I like the plain old 20" AR-15... It does what I need it to, and it works. Its not, uber-tactical, but it can do everything pretty well, I restaked the gas-key on mine, but I haven't had any problem with it either before or after...

But personally, You probably wont need anything more than the old fashioned shotgun with a selection of slugs and buckshot... and a decent pistol...

Assuming you have the above, the AR is just icing on the cake, and the MBR (or whatever you wanna call it) is gravy.

TL:DR:

Spend as much as you want if it makes you happy, or you have precieved needs for a platform... just realize your only getting incrementally greater functionality.
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Old 01-02-2011, 21:39   #134
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Plus - They piss off Liberals!

Liberals hate em!
Republicans hate them more they even banned them from import...
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Old 01-02-2011, 22:04   #135
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Originally Posted by JTLIII View Post
very true, but still he made it seem as though no military experience=no skillz.


I no great shot, I admit. But I can hold my own out to a few hundred yards, with the only formal training I received from Boy Scouts...and my Dad. I see the need for a "main battle rifle" but in a SHTF, I'll have my 10/22 match rifle and my R700 in 308. Screw a semi-auto battle rifle, I want hidden and super accurate.


I've never said that, as far as I know, in any thread. I said most shooters will not be able to enjoy the slight ballistic advantage that 7.62x51mm enjoys over 5.56, because, A. the majority are not good enough shots. And B. The majority of MBR style rifles in 7.62x51mm, are not as accurate as rifles in 5.56.
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Old 01-02-2011, 22:31   #136
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I don't really want to take exception with people on here who I'm sure have more knowledge of fire arms than I do, but I've seen first hand a .308 against an AR at 300 yards. I had the .308 with iron sights...the guy next to me had an AR with a scope. I was hitting paper he was not...not even close.

I think it's training more than anything. The guy next to me kept fiddling with his scope and it was obvious he didn't know how to use it. While my BLR was sighted in for 200 yards and it only took a slight correction to hit at 300. The flatter trajectory of the .308 certainly makes that correction easy.

While he had to compensate considerably more (his AR was sighted in at 100 yards, or at least that's what he said) and I believe he set the clicks on his scope in the opposite direction from what he should have (just a guess since I don't use a scope).

To me training and practice with the tools you have whatever they are is the key. I'm sure there are guys who have ARs who can shoot circles around me, but in this case it was the other way around because of training and practice.

Your mileage may vary
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Old 01-03-2011, 05:30   #137
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I've never said that, as far as I know, in any thread. I said most shooters will not be able to enjoy the slight ballistic advantage that 7.62x51mm enjoys over 5.56, because, A. the majority are not good enough shots. And B. The majority of MBR style rifles in 7.62x51mm, are not as accurate as rifles in 5.56.
what I don't get is how you say the caliber makes it less accurate.
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Old 01-03-2011, 08:53   #138
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Only .308 I got is a heavy bbl Savage. All my JIC guns are 7.62x39 or 5.56mm. I sleep just fine.
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:02   #139
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I don't really want to take exception with people on here who I'm sure have more knowledge of fire arms than I do, but I've seen first hand a .308 against an AR at 300 yards. I had the .308 with iron sights...the guy next to me had an AR with a scope. I was hitting paper he was not...not even close.

I think it's training more than anything. The guy next to me kept fiddling with his scope and it was obvious he didn't know how to use it. While my BLR was sighted in for 200 yards and it only took a slight correction to hit at 300. The flatter trajectory of the .308 certainly makes that correction easy.

While he had to compensate considerably more (his AR was sighted in at 100 yards, or at least that's what he said) and I believe he set the clicks on his scope in the opposite direction from what he should have (just a guess since I don't use a scope).

To me training and practice with the tools you have whatever they are is the key. I'm sure there are guys who have ARs who can shoot circles around me, but in this case it was the other way around because of training and practice.

Your mileage may vary
All that means is the guy next to you didn't know how to run his gun.
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:18   #140
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All that means is the guy next to you didn't know how to run his gun.
I don't know how to run my guns either. I know how to shoot them, but run them? I must admit that I am ignorant.
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:19   #141
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Don't blame the media for making use of the moniker "assault rifles". Blame the gunzine writers that came up with that crap.
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:26   #142
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I don't know how to run my guns either. I know how to shoot them, but run them? I must admit that I am ignorant.
Yes run. It's an intransitive verb, has a similar meaning to function. Does that help?
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:51   #143
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To me, the question really should be:
"Battle Rifle, are they useful to the common man?"

And the answer...IMHO...is "depends".

If a person hunts, and some of what is hunted requires a larger caliber than .223/5.56 to be legal according to DNR regs, then it might be a useful gun. If the terrain is such that 400+ yard shots are commonly presented, and the person has the skills to consistently make such shots, then it begins to be a more and more attractive option. If you are a "300 yards or less" type of shooter and do not hunt game bigger than a deer/hog, then an AR-15 is a perfectly acceptable and useful tool. If the game is bigger or distances greater, then the .308/7.62 gets more and more useful. Me personally, I don't have a problem taking/making shots out to 600 yards. And where I hunt I get presented with those kind of shots a lot. I feel the RRA LAR-8 (AR-10) is an ideal choice for me. Everybody needs to look at what they do/need and what is best suited for those tasks. It's like saying "Framing Hammer...Does everyone need one?" No, everyone does not need one. But for some, they are very useful.
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:57   #144
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what I don't get is how you say the caliber makes it less accurate.

Its not that being 7.62 makes the rifle less accurate. It is that the platforms in 7.62 are less accurate to begin with.
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:59   #145
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I have lots of different rifles. I don't plan on being in any "main" battles so none of mine are main battle rifles.
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:26   #146
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Yes run. It's an intransitive verb, has a similar meaning to function. Does that help?
You should make this proposal to the US Army TRADOC so that they can learn the soldiers better.

"GI, you don't shoot your weapons, you run your guns!!!"
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:15   #147
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You should make this proposal to the US Army TRADOC so that they can learn the soldiers better.

"GI, you don't shoot your weapons, you run your guns!!!"
I can't take the credit for the choosing to use run as a synonym for operate.

Here is some homework- go to one of the other multitude of posts on GT that use term "run" instead of operate and seek out the origin of this mind blowing concept!
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:22   #148
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The fact is, that regardless of whether you pick a carbine firing an "intermediate" cartridge or an "MBR", there's going to be a tradeoff. If you live out in a rural setting and are suddenly in a "SHTF" scenario the chances of needing to deliver more power at extended ranges may be necessary not only for defense, but for hunting. Conversely, if the same situation represented itself in an urban environment, then having roughly 30% more firepower with less downrange "punch" would be the better tool for the job so long as one realizes the limitations of the caliber and doesnt constantly place themselves in a situation where those limitations could be exploited(such as wide open spaces with no cover). This of course is based on the fact that most semi-auto MBR's have a standard capacity of 20 rounds (such as the FAL, M1A and the G3) and its various "clones". Whereas the pre-dominant carbines(AK, AR) have a standard capacity of 30 rounds. The question is...."which tradeoff would have the LEAST impact on you"? Odds are, that for at least 95% of us, the carbine is the better choice...all things considered.
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:37   #149
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All that means is the guy next to you didn't know how to run his gun.
Exactly my point.

Since I don't know how to 'run' an AR either I would never choose one for that reason. I could learn of course, but there are many guns that are much simpler to learn to use than an AR from what I've seen.

By the way my step-son, an ex-marine, swears by the AR...so different strokes for different folks and different levels of training.
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:53   #150
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I can't take the credit for the choosing to use run as a synonym for operate.

Here is some homework- go to one of the other multitude of posts on GT that use term "run" instead of operate and seek out the origin of this mind blowing concept!
Probably the same origin as the idiots that coined the word "co-witness".

It's bad enough that rappers are killing the English vocabulary, but the mall ninjas have to contribute as well.
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