[frankr]

I know all the reasoning for using JHP for your self defense ammunition and my carry gun is loaded with JHP but I was just wounding how many people use FMJ for self defense?

[cowboy1964]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOQOA...eature=related

[RYNOCG201]

The military does. . . I personally would not unless I had no other options. Some use .45 ball in 1911s and some subscribe to the belief that FMJs are better for weaker calibers such as .380 ACP because of their lack of penetration.

I will stick with Gold Dots, Rangers, or HSTs Thanks!

[collim1]

Only if I carried a .32 or .25 for SD

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by collim1

Only if I carried a .32 or .25 for SD

Agree, even toss the 380 in there, but there is some good JHP for that, like the XTP. There really isn't much of a point punching less than caliber holes when you can tear larger than caliber holes. Bigger holes, faster blood loss, regardless of how you get there.

[481]

Originally Posted by frankr

I know all the reasoning for using JHP for your self defense ammunition and my carry gun is loaded with JHP but I was just wounding how many people use FMJ for self defense?

I have done so a few times in my life (primarily when an assignment called for it due to enviromental/policy concerns) and would do so again with no reservations if I was compelled to since I'd rather have a solid COM "hit" with an FMJ over a peripheral "hit" with the latest "wonder ammunition".

Although many make much fuss over the issue of "over-penetration", I find it to be a relatively minor concern especially when taken against the context of "misses" either of which can be addressed with quality training.

Please do not take this as endorsement or preference for the practice since a high quality JHP design offers advanatges over the FMJ design. (demonstrably greater tissue trauma induced, less likelihood of a "pass through" of the target/assailant)

Even if the advantages were to be proven to be minor in comparison to that provided by an FMJ, I'd still prefer to carry/load the JHP since I want every advantage that I can avail myself of no matter how small if I ever again find myself in "harm's way".

YMMV.

[cowboy1964]

Originally Posted by 481

I have done so a few times in my life (primarily when an assignment called for it due to enviromental/policy concerns) and would do so again with no reservations if I was compelled to since I'd rather have a solid COM "hit" with an FMJ over a peripheral "hit" with the latest "wonder ammunition".

Why would you be more likely to have a COM hit with FMJ? I know that's not what you're saying but what you said kind of implies that.

[cowboy1964]

Originally Posted by fredj338

Agree, even toss the 380 in there, but there is some good JHP for that, like the XTP. There realyl isn't much of apoint punching less than caliber holes when you can tear larger than caliber holes. Bigger holes, faster blood loss, regardless of how you get there.

The problem is .380 and weaker usually won't get sufficient penetration even at 1x caliber diameter. Penetration first, then worry about hole size.

[Danielrh123]

I use FMJ but around here i can't seem to find any decently priced JHP (under $25.00 for 20 rounds) around here so i have no other choice.

[Doc8404]

Originally Posted by Danielrh123

I use FMJ but around here i can't seem to find any decently priced JHP (under $25.00 for 20 rounds) around here so i have no other choice.

why not buy online? Remington Golden Saber BJHP 124gr +P are $16/box of 25.

[481]

Originally Posted by cowboy1964

Why would you be more likely to have a COM hit with FMJ?

Never said that.

Originally Posted by cowboy1964

I know that's not what you're saying but what you said kind of implies that.

No, it doesn't.

OK, so what is your point if you understand what I was trying to convey?


Going for Grammar/Syntax Nazi?

Just looking for an argument?

Simply to engage in unpleasantness?

Can't help but nit-pick?

[Jim S.]

Originally Posted by frankr

I was just wondering how many people use FMJ for self defense?

I wonder how many people do not realize that many JHP rounds become no different than a FMJ round when the hollow point gets packed with layers of clothing such as people wear in the colder winter areas???
FMJ is a good winter round when people wear multiple layers of heavy clothing.
Most times I would think that penetration is more important than expansion.

[26Ford]

Originally Posted by Jim S.

I wonder how many people do not realize that many JHP rounds become no different than a FMJ round when the hollow point gets packed with layers of clothing such as people wear in the colder winter areas???
FMJ is a good winter round when people wear multiple layers of heavy clothing.
Most times I would think that penetration is more important than expansion.

Very good point sir

[dkf]

I wonder how many people do not realize that many JHP rounds become no different than a FMJ round when the hollow point gets packed with layers of clothing such as people wear in the colder winter areas???

The ammo manufacturers have been putting a lot of time and money into developing ammo that expands even when going through heavy clothing. Some rounds are actually doing very well at expanding under those conditions. You already know what an FMJ will do, at least with using a JHP round your giving the round a chance to expand. If the JHP clogs like you mention it will still be no worse than FMJ and will likely (JHP) show some signs of expansion.

[txgunguy]

Originally Posted by dkf

The ammo manufacturers have been putting a lot of time and money into developing ammo that expands even when going through heavy clothing. Some rounds are actually doing very well at expanding under those conditions. You already know what an FMJ will do, at least with using a JHP round your giving the round a chance to expand. If the JHP clogs like you mention it will still be no worse than FMJ and will likely (JHP) show some signs of expansion.

This. If you never get expansion you still get penetration. If I lived up north where people had heavy clothing in the winter, I might consider carrying FMJ. But here in Texas, there aren't too many people bundled up.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by cowboy1964

The problem is .380 and weaker usually won't get sufficient penetration even at 1x caliber diameter. Penetration first, then worry about hole size.

I agree, but my exp w/ the XTP tells me it will penetrate about as far as a FMJ w/ at least some deformation. I prefer tearing to puncture wounds. One reason I am not a fan of sub caliber SD guns. If yo ucan hide a 380, you can probably hide a j-frame.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by 26Ford

Very good point sir

Not really. What he is saying is "IF", well at least if you start w/ a JHP & it ends up a FMJ, you lose nothing vs starting w/ a FMJ & losing much. CLothing does not stop a JHP from doing the same thing a FMJ does. Again, there just is little reason to advocate FMJ in any service caliber for SD. It's just handicapping you, there is enough going to go wrong in a gunfight, why start out in behind the curve?

[Merkavaboy]

Originally Posted by Jim S.

I wonder how many people do not realize that many JHP rounds become no different than a FMJ round when the hollow point gets packed with layers of clothing such as people wear in the colder winter areas???
FMJ is a good winter round when people wear multiple layers of heavy clothing.
Most times I would think that penetration is more important than expansion.

Flawed logic.

FMJ does not expand. It may deform when hitting bone, but it does not expand.

Use of a good JHP round thru heavy clothing there is always the chance of expansion. In a worse case scenario if it does clog up, then you have a bullet acting similar to FMJ.

There's absolutely no good reason to use FMJ/RN/solid bullets in service calibers for SD unless you live in a state (NJ) or a foreign country (i.e. Italy) where you are restricted from using HP ammo.

Also, there are numerous cases of people being seriously injured and killed by OP'ing bullets, primarily with FMJ/solid bullets, heavy .357 Mag rounds and the erratic performing 9mm 147JHP subsonics (particually the infamous FBI approved Win 147JHP subsonic OSM bullet).

I don't know about other states, but in CA if one is involved in a rightous SD shooting and, G-d forbid, a missed bullet kills an innocent, it's criminally excusable on the grounds as an Excusable Homicide.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by Merkavaboy

Flawed logic.

Use of a good JHP round thru heavy clothing there is always the chance of expansion. In a worse case scenario if it does clog up, then you have a bullet acting similar to FMJ.

There's absolutely no good reason to use FMJ/RN/solid bullets for SD unless you live in a state (NJ) or a foreign country (i.e. Italy) where you are restricted from using HP ammo.

.

Correct, in fact, even if the JHP fails to expand, it's flat point will still provide more terminal performance than a smooth RNFMJ. So again, really no point & cost should NEVER be the reason to use cheap FMJ. Two boxes of SD JHP will last you at least 2-3 yrs of CCW, mor efor the HD gun.

[Speakeasy]

Bottom line, FMJ is generally "good enough," but why not use the best available? Even a small box of JHP is not prohibitively expensive, and you only need one or two magazines' worth at a time (or however many you prefer to have on you).

[MURRAY]

just in my p32 and LCP

[JBP55]

Gold Dot, HST or Ranger T for me.

[Brucev]

I have used FMJ before. If in the future that's what I have on hand, that's what I'll use. Prefer a good JHP. That's what's in my G-22 and my S&W 625. But, a hole is a hole is a hole. Put the round where it needs to go, punch holes in heart/lungs, etc., get good results. A 125gr. JHP .357 S&W Magnum is a bomb. Works extremely well. But a plain Jane 158 gr. SWC is also very effective. No difference with .40/.45 rounds. JHP's are very effective, but the plain Jane FMJ are fine. Either one... you've got to put them in the the right spot... hit something vital to get results.

[namgrunt]

1 Solid hit with FMJ will beat 10 near mises with super wonder bullets.
use what you practice with for the real thing.

[frankr]

Another point I’ve thought about. God forbid you ever have to use your weapon to defend yourself and you have to go to court. Can you imagine the lawyer for the person you shot making a point about the ammunition you used. Calling the JHP bullets, explosive ammunition, inhuman, destructive. The average person on the jury is not going to know or understand the advantages of JHP.