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Old 01-31-2011, 19:56   #1
Brent1202
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First AR, got optics questions

Just bought my first AR-15 on sat. M&P AR-15OR. Now let the modding begin!!! For you experienced guys, this is what I'm looking for...

I want a optic that I can do some plinking and range time. Probably out to 250-300 yards. I way also use for some home defense. Not wanting to go over $500. I like the Eotech's but I would assume I would need a magnifier for the longer range time? Primary arms has a Eotech XPS2 with their magnifier for a good price. Are their magnifiers any good? I know some also like the Aimpoints. Whats the advantages of one over the other?

Is there anything else I should be looking at? I don't want a rifle scope, not the look I want and this a gun I don't see myself doing a lot of hunting with.

Thanks for any help, Brent.
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Old 01-31-2011, 21:14   #2
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For home defense (inside your home and in its immediate area) you don't need nor should you use magnification. If you want a magnifier for just at the range, the primary arms are fine. I would start with a quality red dot and decide if you want a magnifier later. I prefer Aimpoints (particularly micros) to EOTechs but they each have their fans.
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Old 01-31-2011, 21:15   #3
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Do you want hits, or tiny groups?

Hits at 250-300 with an Aimpoint, no major issues. Tiny groups? Get a magnified scope. Magnifiers will help you see the target some, they won't help you shoot better.

An Aimpoint Comp ML2 or C3 for home defense in a LaRue LT129, and a low-cost riflescope, something like a Nikon Coyote 3X9 for the longer range in an LT104 can be interchanged with no loss of zero.
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Old 01-31-2011, 21:53   #4
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Look at the Millett 1-4x24, a great scope for $199 at MidwayUSA

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=186660
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Old 01-31-2011, 21:56   #5
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Aimpoint T-1 or H-1 for home defense, and good out to 100 yards +. You can always fet a magnifier/multiplier to mount behind it later if increasd magnification is a must. But you will be surprised what you can do with the T-1 or H-1. Absolutely dean nuts reliable and bomb proof with extremely long battery life and FAST!
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Old 01-31-2011, 22:08   #6
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Aimpoint battery life is 50,000 hours or about 5 years! Consider a 2moa dot for finer aiming at longer targets. However, 250-300 yds. is too far for no magnification on paper targets. Military uses the ACOG for longer ranges, but the cost is high.

Many like the EOTECH but battery life is much shorter. All three are in use in by US.

Your M&P AR looks like a more standard model and may only shoot 1.5-2.5 MOA. This translates to 4.5-7.5 inches mechanical accuracy at 300 yds. Add to that the shooters capabilities and you may want to stick to closer targets.

Don't forget the wind becomes much more significant at 300 yds. making the shooting even more challenging.

Not trying to discourage anyone from shooting at any range, but remember there are many factors to consider after you get past 150-200 yds.
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:22   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMurphy View Post
Do you want hits, or tiny groups?

Hits at 250-300 with an Aimpoint, no major issues. Tiny groups? Get a magnified scope. Magnifiers will help you see the target some, they won't help you shoot better.

An Aimpoint Comp ML2 or C3 for home defense in a LaRue LT129, and a low-cost riflescope, something like a Nikon Coyote 3X9 for the longer range in an LT104 can be interchanged with no loss of zero.

I'm not looking for a tack driver but would like tight groups. I'll take a look at those Aimpoints
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:28   #8
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Originally Posted by IDPA_Shooter View Post
Aimpoint battery life is 50,000 hours or about 5 years! Consider a 2moa dot for finer aiming at longer targets. However, 250-300 yds. is too far for no magnification on paper targets. Military uses the ACOG for longer ranges, but the cost is high.

Many like the EOTECH but battery life is much shorter. All three are in use in by US.

Your M&P AR looks like a more standard model and may only shoot 1.5-2.5 MOA. This translates to 4.5-7.5 inches mechanical accuracy at 300 yds. Add to that the shooters capabilities and you may want to stick to closer targets.

Don't forget the wind becomes much more significant at 300 yds. making the shooting even more challenging.

Not trying to discourage anyone from shooting at any range, but remember there are many factors to consider after you get past 150-200 yds.

More than likely I'll be doing most of my shooting out to 150-200 max, but, I'd like to have the ability to do so. Kinda why I was learning towards the Eotech was I could use it for target, possible some IDPA down the road, maybe some close varmit(very little if any). I like the idea of maving a quick release magnifier for when I want to put some further down range. Does this sound like I'm heading in the right direction?
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:44   #9
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Aimpoint and EoTech each have magnifiers. The Aimpoint v. EoTech is like Ford v. Chevy or Coke v. Pepsi. For your average shooter it will really come down to preference and generally the reticle is what sways people one way or the other.

150-200 yards upper torso no problem, even head shot size hits can be pretty routine. 300 yards and upper torso sized hits is easily maintained, but I tend to want magnification at these ranges for observational purposes.

If I do up close work I generally do not like a tubular type of optic even on 1x mag.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:14   #10
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I got to see one of the Eotech xps2 today at a local gun shop. I liked it. Very light. Liked being able to keep both eyes open with the sight. I'm going to check a couple other places to see if I can look threw a Aimpoint. The Eotech left a very good impression with me to be honest.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:14   #11
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Originally Posted by surf View Post
Aimpoint and EoTech each have magnifiers. The Aimpoint v. EoTech is like Ford v. Chevy or Coke v. Pepsi. For your average shooter it will really come down to preference and generally the reticle is what sways people one way or the other.
I cannot use an EO Tech any more, simply because the reticle drives me nuts. It has nothing to do with the shape (which I actually like) but the whole thing appears fuzzy due to my astigmatism. It is nowhere near as easy for my eyes as my Aimpoint. I have heard this complain from other shooters with astigmatism, as well, even if it is corrected with glasses or contacts.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:45   #12
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Toss in the short battery life and "dies randomly including during firefights' method of operation, while i've had a few Eotechs, i only use Aimpoints whenever possible.
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Old 02-01-2011, 15:36   #13
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I cannot use an EO Tech any more, simply because the reticle drives me nuts. It has nothing to do with the shape (which I actually like) but the whole thing appears fuzzy due to my astigmatism. It is nowhere near as easy for my eyes as my Aimpoint. I have heard this complain from other shooters with astigmatism, as well, even if it is corrected with glasses or contacts.
Yep that is one of the reticle aspects that sway many shooters. Because the EoTech is a true holo sight as opposed to an LED, a fuzzy reticle or "blooming" can be a result in some shooters with eye issues.
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Old 02-01-2011, 16:06   #14
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Toss in the short battery life and "dies randomly including during firefights' method of operation
This has been covered to death. I have no qualms with the battery life on my EoTech. Batteries on tac lights die rather suddenly as well. Preventive Maintenance.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 02-01-2011 at 16:11..
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Old 02-01-2011, 16:11   #15
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As a counter-point, I love my Eotech. Aimpoints have some excellent attributes, no doubt, so check both out. As far as Eotechs go, one of the newest XPS models has side-mounted controls, excellent for mounting a magnifier behind.
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Old 02-01-2011, 16:23   #16
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Vortex StrikeFire with magnification(screws right on).

Leupold Mark AR 1x-4x

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Old 02-01-2011, 16:45   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent1202 View Post
Just bought my first AR-15 on sat. M&P AR-15OR. Now let the modding begin!!! For you experienced guys, this is what I'm looking for...

I want a optic that I can do some plinking and range time. Probably out to 250-300 yards. I way also use for some home defense. Not wanting to go over $500. I like the Eotech's but I would assume I would need a magnifier for the longer range time? Primary arms has a Eotech XPS2 with their magnifier for a good price. Are their magnifiers any good? I know some also like the Aimpoints. Whats the advantages of one over the other?

Is there anything else I should be looking at? I don't want a rifle scope, not the look I want and this a gun I don't see myself doing a lot of hunting with.

Thanks for any help, Brent.
I have no experience with this scope but its getting good reviews from people I know.
The Burris Tac 30 it comes in under your price point.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/inde...owtopic=119196

I would not waste your money on an eotech. Frankly I believe the days of the full size red dot sight are limited. Compact red dots will do the same thing in a smaller package for those who want a short range rifle. For those who want to be able to shoot to the potential of their rifle are better served with one of the many good 1-4,5,6,8 power scopes coming out on the market.
My personal favorites is the Swarovski Z6i BRT 1-6 scope and the Trijicon TR24 1-4.
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Old 02-01-2011, 16:46   #18
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I like the Eo reticle, just not the performance (after having used and sold them for a living).

As to white lights, i used a whitelight on a weapon daily for searching for 3 years and ONCE had a light fail due to battery. I drew my handheld and continued the mission.
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Old 02-01-2011, 16:50   #19
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Check this out if you want a Eo http://www.opticsplanet.net/l3-eotec...2-0-opmod.html
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Old 02-01-2011, 17:36   #20
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I will add this Brent.

Like a couple of the other fellas posting here I am not a young guy and I also remember the days prior to red dots and I have watched them evolve from the beginning. I am an old school Aimpoint guy. I also had a bad taste in my mouth over EoTechs from the early models and their associated issues.

About 4 years ago my unit equipped our 65 Colt M4A1's with the EoTech 553's (which wasn't my vote). I will admit that 5 of the EoTech's had issues with the battery connection which was found very early after purchase. We did do the battery fix on all 65 of the EoTech's. I carry this rifle on a nearly a daily basis as my primary weapon and literally beat the piss out of it as do the other guys in my unit. We have not had one issue in any of these EoTechs once we did the battery fix. So yes, a simple fix was necessary, but not one single other issue in almost 4 years in all 65 units seeing heavy use.

Another interesting story, is that a co worker was involved in an auto accident. I just got his rifle 2 weeks ago. His receiver extension tube was sheared off at the castle nut, his DD rail was cracked at the receiver end, his lower was tweaked and his barrel was bent. I thought for sure his EoTech 512 was toast. Damn if it didn't power right up.

I do a lot of factory work and custom builds or modifications. On many I have used the XPS versions and I haven't had one come back yet. No doubt the Aimpoint is more rugged. By the more simplistic electronics alone I would automatically assume it to be more durable, but yes even the housing is built like a tank. There is no argument IMO that the Aimpoint is more rugged. Even though I feel that the Aimpoint is more rugged, in my own experiences I am very comfortable in my own experiences in the duty worthiness of the newer EoTech models. As for battery life, if your going off to war and cannot get batteries easily I might opt for the Aimpoint. However you can easily get well over a year of use out of the EoTech even under heavy use. Some end users who have duty or military applications might set a higher priority on other things than just the reticle and that is good also.

So what is the moral? For your average weekend shooter, pick whichever reticle works best for you. Is it Coke, or is it Pepsi?

Edit - I should also add that even if you like a single dot only but still want the EoTech, you can get that also.

Last edited by surf; 02-01-2011 at 17:38..
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Old 02-01-2011, 18:06   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surf View Post
I will add this Brent.

Like a couple of the other fellas posting here I am not a young guy and I also remember the days prior to red dots and I have watched them evolve from the beginning. I am an old school Aimpoint guy. I also had a bad taste in my mouth over EoTechs from the early models and their associated issues.

About 4 years ago my unit equipped our 65 Colt M4A1's with the EoTech 553's (which wasn't my vote). I will admit that 5 of the EoTech's had issues with the battery connection which was found very early after purchase. We did do the battery fix on all 65 of the EoTech's. I carry this rifle on a nearly a daily basis as my primary weapon and literally beat the piss out of it as do the other guys in my unit. We have not had one issue in any of these EoTechs once we did the battery fix. So yes, a simple fix was necessary, but not one single other issue in almost 4 years in all 65 units seeing heavy use.

Another interesting story, is that a co worker was involved in an auto accident. I just got his rifle 2 weeks ago. His receiver extension tube was sheared off at the castle nut, his DD rail was cracked at the receiver end, his lower was tweaked and his barrel was bent. I thought for sure his EoTech 512 was toast. Damn if it didn't power right up.

I do a lot of factory work and custom builds or modifications. On many I have used the XPS versions and I haven't had one come back yet. No doubt the Aimpoint is more rugged. By the more simplistic electronics alone I would automatically assume it to be more durable, but yes even the housing is built like a tank. There is no argument IMO that the Aimpoint is more rugged. Even though I feel that the Aimpoint is more rugged, in my own experiences I am very comfortable in my own experiences in the duty worthiness of the newer EoTech models. As for battery life, if your going off to war and cannot get batteries easily I might opt for the Aimpoint. However you can easily get well over a year of use out of the EoTech even under heavy use. Some end users who have duty or military applications might set a higher priority on other things than just the reticle and that is good also.

So what is the moral? For your average weekend shooter, pick whichever reticle works best for you. Is it Coke, or is it Pepsi?

Edit - I should also add that even if you like a single dot only but still want the EoTech, you can get that also.
I put the OPMOD link there, as its a EXPS Eotech with OPMOD on the side, its made by Eo for Optics Planet, they even tell you that for allot less then the exact same model Eo. I have had Aimpoints (Comp M3 and M4) and just never really cared for them, but the Opmod price may make me get another Eo, now my rifles are outfitted with either TA11's, TA31's or Leupold Mark 4 1.5x5's, I'am looking hard at the TR24, it has gotten some pretty good reviews. Optics are like AR's you get what you pay for. The thing I like about the TA31 is the field of view and both eyes open quickness (not as fast as a dot though) but the TA11's have excellent eye relief, so I guess, what one person reccomends might not be what you like best, the best thing is, is to go to a good shop and ask to look at different models, when your at the range see if you look through some different setups, while the Eo's and Aimpoints have optional magnifiers, they add weight, cost and take up rail estate. Good Luck!

Last edited by mstennes; 02-01-2011 at 18:07..
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Old 02-02-2011, 00:32   #22
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Thereís no perfect compromise. The classic compromise is 1-4X 24 illuminated scope. Everyone is making one these days so the market is saturated but in my book the best under $1K is Vortex Viper PST (around $500); the best under $500 is Leatherwood CMR (around $300).

This type of sights is usable for short distances but will not hold the candle to a red dot. Of which Aimpoint Micro is the best IMHO.

I donít understand the deal with magnifiers. They also magnify the dot which defeats the purpose of the whole exercise. You might want to consider having two scopes in QD mounts. Red dot (bought first and kept on the rifle while at home) and later you can add something along the lines of 2.5-10X40 for more rewarding target work.
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Old 02-02-2011, 00:55   #23
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There’s no perfect compromise. The classic compromise is 1-4X 24 illuminated scope. Everyone is making one these days so the market is saturated but in my book the best under $1K is Vortex Viper PST (around $500); the best under $500 is Leatherwood CMR (around $300).

This type of sights is usable for short distances but will not hold the candle to a red dot. Of which Aimpoint Micro is the best IMHO.

I don’t understand the deal with magnifiers. They also magnify the dot which defeats the purpose of the whole exercise. You might want to consider having two scopes in QD mounts. Red dot (bought first and kept on the rifle while at home) and later you can add something along the lines of 2.5-10X40 for more rewarding target work.
I have to disagree with you there. In all the CQB drills I have done I am just as fast with my scopes on 1x as I am with my RDS sights. The only advantage to the RDS is form awkward firing positions.

Example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFlJVVZDx68
M4 Aimpoint

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwtbL0tTirg
TR24
Both same gun.

Also the problem with having two scopes on QD mounts is situations change rapidly in real life. For example in LEO work you may be on the perimeter one minute and then running up to the house to do a rescue on a wounded entry team member the next. There is no time to swap out optics. A better plan is to have a optic system that can handle near and far. There are a few ways to do this.
1. A good low power variable scope.
2. A Red Dot Sight with a magnifier in a flip to side mount.
3. Two optics on same weapon. Such as an ACOG with a Red dot in an off set mount like this.
Black Rifle Forum
Or this
Black Rifle Forum

Personally I would never chose a rifle with just a red dot or just an ACOG again. The only single optic set up I like is a low power variable.

Pat

More pics.
Black Rifle Forum
Black Rifle Forum
Black Rifle Forum
Black Rifle Forum

Also magnifiers don't magnifier the dot. The Dot stays the same size. So a 2 moa dot is still 2 moa in a 3x magnifier. You just see everything bigger. A magnifier gives someone with a RDS sight the ability to reach a little further out there and it also allows for better target ID.
I do agree that the AImpoint Micro is the best of the red dots right now.
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Last edited by Alaskapopo; 02-02-2011 at 01:51..
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Old 02-02-2011, 02:44   #24
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I have the ACOG TA31 Doc Optic, dual crosshair variant, which I deploy under certain circumstances and obviously I have extensively trained with it. I also have a Leupy CQT variable and I have tested and used many other short dot / tube type optics. They have their place but IMHO for up close work even out to 100m I am not a fan. I only mention magnifiers as that was the topic asked. I am personally not a fan of magnifiers due to length, weight, tubular, the need to flip etc but yes, I own the set up.

On a timer up close, I am nowhere near as fast with any tube type optic period as I am with a EoTech or an Aimpoint. I may be splitting hairs on speed when talking fractions or hundreds of a second, but for myself it is easily repeatable on a timer. I am quicker with the EoTech but the Aimpoint is still slightly behind. OK maybe hundreds of a second might be splitting hairs on my evals, but time is time. I will take every fraction of a second I can get if my life is on the line.

I often find myself shooting from hasty, alternate or improvised shooting positions and rarely find myself in a nice shooting platform. I very much need that flexibility which as Pat mentioned is often not available in certain types of tubular optics. Most of my work is up close but even out to say 200m, I really don't need a magnified optic for what I would consider acceptable combat hits for a battle rifle. So for my needs a short dot or similar is out of the question. I deploy under set circumstances. Up close, red dot. Longer distance I deploy with a bolt rifle and an M4 with an ACOG. Just depends on my assigned role.

Of course much is related to the shooters actual needs and their preferences. In reality I am quite sure the OP's needs are quite a bit different and for him and in reality I am quite sure his decision is a Coke v. Pepsi type of thing. Don't sweat it. Pick which one you like. They are both high quality IMO.
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Old 02-02-2011, 07:03   #25
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Originally Posted by Brent1202 View Post
Just bought my first AR-15 on sat. M&P AR-15OR. Now let the modding begin!!! For you experienced guys, this is what I'm looking for...

I want a optic that I can do some plinking and range time. Probably out to 250-300 yards. I way also use for some home defense. Not wanting to go over $500. I like the Eotech's but I would assume I would need a magnifier for the longer range time? Primary arms has a Eotech XPS2 with their magnifier for a good price. Are their magnifiers any good? I know some also like the Aimpoints. Whats the advantages of one over the other?

Is there anything else I should be looking at? I don't want a rifle scope, not the look I want and this a gun I don't see myself doing a lot of hunting with.

Thanks for any help, Brent.
OP after rereading this, I would go with a 1.4x5 TR24, MR/T etc, it may not give you the look you want, but it will be the useable/beneficial scope setup for you, you dial it down for close in, or run it up for those 250-300+ yard shots, I will also be your do try it out on coyotes and other small varmits. Its also going to be the most economical, you may spend a little more than a Eo or Aimpoint, but you will have 3+x the useability.
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