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Old 02-13-2011, 23:59   #41
mixflip
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I just found this interesting too...nothing more...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gHIJQoQP3A

And this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koW5Q6y_iCc

Last edited by mixflip; 02-13-2011 at 23:59..
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Old 02-14-2011, 00:28   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mstennes View Post
the M16/AR platforms number one cause of malfunctions is bad magazines, folled by worn extractors, debris problems are cuased by its tighter tollarances
So,carbon fouling does not build up under the extractor and cause failures to extract on d.i. guns? Its gotta be something else?

Last edited by mixflip; 02-14-2011 at 02:13..
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Old 02-14-2011, 00:50   #43
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All AR15 piston systems are add ons, most are copies of the Armalite AR180 system with a little tweak here or there. They add some weight to the rifle. If I was going to choose one I would choose one with a 1 piece carrier and a pinned gas block or I did choose a SCAR over every high priced AR with a add on piston system. I think I would even choose my $700 Armalite AR180 over most of the piston rifles on the market.
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Last edited by Constructor; 02-14-2011 at 10:31.. Reason: clarify
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Old 02-14-2011, 02:21   #44
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Originally Posted by Constructor View Post
If I was going to choose one I would choose one with a 1 piece carrier and a pinned gas block...
Its been about 3 years now that gas piston AR's have been on the market. Integral one piece impact shoulders on the BCG and double taper pinned gas blocks are pretty much the gold standard now.

Even the old Adams Arms retrofit kit has updated to double taper pins vs their old hex head bolt system of attaching. And Osprey no longer uses a gas key adapter/impact shoulder anymore. Everybody machines their BCG with an integral impact shoulder now. Dare I say...its standardized for the most part?

Last edited by mixflip; 02-14-2011 at 02:22..
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Old 02-14-2011, 10:07   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixflip View Post
Its been about 3 years now that gas piston AR's have been on the market. Integral one piece impact shoulders on the BCG and double taper pinned gas blocks are pretty much the gold standard now.

Even the old Adams Arms retrofit kit has updated to double taper pins vs their old hex head bolt system of attaching. And Osprey no longer uses a gas key adapter/impact shoulder anymore. Everybody machines their BCG with an integral impact shoulder now. Dare I say...its standardized for the most part?
Can you mix and match piston parts from different manufacturers? Hey I said I have a piston LWRC, bought to see the hoopla, I didnt see any. If I want a piston again in 223/556 it will be a SCAR or ACR or XCR.
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Old 02-14-2011, 10:10   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixflip View Post
So,carbon fouling does not build up under the extractor and cause failures to extract on d.i. guns? Its gotta be something else?
You will wear a extractor out or experiance spring failure before carbon buildup will cause a failure.

Last edited by mstennes; 02-14-2011 at 10:11..
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Old 02-14-2011, 11:24   #47
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All right, I'm going piston for my build. Unless the DI AR's can be cleaned by just peeing on it, I think piston upper is the way to go.

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Old 02-14-2011, 13:52   #48
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Can you mix and match piston parts from different manufacturers? Hey I said I have a piston LWRC, bought to see the hoopla, I didnt see any. If I want a piston again in 223/556 it will be a SCAR or ACR or XCR.
I dont know since I have never tried it? That would make for a really good review video if I could find a few guys that are willing to let me use their guns? I have personally handled several piston BCG's (Stag, HK, Sabre Defense and Remington at Shot Show, to name a few) and I have to admit, while they are not technically standardized, they did look identical as far as the BCG.

The piston op rods were all different though. Some had AK style op rods while others had a spring cup design (like your LWRC which I am not a fan of that design for my own reasons)

I really hate getting into these di vs piston debates because no one ever wins. As a matter of fact I am not even trying to win...I am merely trying to clear up some of the false information and hate hype about piston guns.

Piston AR's arent better, they just have a different set of issues and thats where the preferences will be decided.

Last edited by mixflip; 02-14-2011 at 14:00..
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Old 02-14-2011, 13:57   #49
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Originally Posted by mstennes View Post
You will wear a extractor out or experiance spring failure before carbon buildup will cause a failure.
Is that a guaranteed fact?

Look if you want to play that game then I could say that you will die of old age before a gas piston BCG or op rod breaks?

This will just go round and round all day if we dont use facts. (btw, I think your spell check is not working lol. I noticed your spelling is distracting, no offense.)

Last edited by mixflip; 02-14-2011 at 21:48..
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Old 02-14-2011, 14:20   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf19r View Post
So what type of lube is best on DI guns? Grease, just standard gun oil, etc...?
Trust me when I tell you the best lube is Synthetic Motor Oil......stays where you put it and doesn't burn off like CLP.
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Old 02-14-2011, 14:33   #51
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Originally Posted by mstennes View Post
You will wear a extractor out or experiance spring failure before carbon buildup will cause a failure.
I call B.S.

Reports of failures from Vietnam to the present is bacause of gunk build up, not extractor failures. Keeping the bolt/chamber area clean is always the issue.
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Old 02-14-2011, 14:43   #52
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Originally Posted by Longbow View Post
I call B.S.

Reports of failures from Vietnam to the present is bacause of gunk build up, not extractor failures. Keeping the bolt/chamber area clean is always the issue.
Vietnam failures were from a number of changes ie powder type, no chrome, and promoting it as self cleaning. It does not matter what type of rifle you have, if you dont clean it it will fail.
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Old 02-14-2011, 14:45   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixflip View Post
Is that a guaranteed fact?

Look if you want to play that game then I could say that you will die of old age before a gas piston BCG or op rod breaks?

This will just go round and round all day if we dont use facts. (btw, I think your spell check is not working lol. I noticed you spelling is distracting, no offense.)
Is my master plan working???? LOL Seriously it can, go forever, something else though allot of rails dont fit pistons.
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Old 02-14-2011, 21:43   #54
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I agree, rails are hard to find (at the moment) for piston guns. Luckily for me, I dont even like quad rails in the first place lol. I have done the lights lasers bipods thing and its just useless and way to heavy. Over the years I have noticed that I personally dont need aluminum quad rails aka cheese graters lol. I always ended up slapping on a whole bunch of panel covers. Also aluminum absorbs heat and retains it longer which some times forced me to wear gloves. I hate wearing gloves in the desert!!!

That being said, I have grown to love my Magpul MOE hand guards. They are super light weight, resistant to heat, resistant to cold, resistant to chemicals. I can ad very tiny picatinny rails for a light or a grip and be done with it. No panels to mess with. Not quite KISS but not quite tacticool either. At 6lbs 9oz I really cant complain about weight. Ad in the fact that I have a very clean chamber at the end of the day and I am pretty much in heaven! Did I ever mention that I am old and lazy and cant stand cleaning that dang star chamber???

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Last edited by mixflip; 02-14-2011 at 21:46..
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:58   #55
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Quote:
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Actually, just keep it lubed and you won't have any problems. One of the most common misconceptions regarding the AR platform is that they must be clean to be reliable. It just isn't true. A very dirty rifle will run reliably as long as it's wet.
Yep. I have never cleaned my latest AR to the draconian standards of the NRA/military, and in the 3 courses (4000 +/-) rounds I have never had a firearm induced failure (couple of magazine and ammo failures).

OP: I own both piston and DI AR's, and I truly believe they both have their merits. One is a proven platform that will perform well under most circumstances, the other is an evolution of the AR and offers advantages to suppressed and/or SBR shooting. The problem you will run into with this type of discussion in mediums like online forums is that, for the most part, comments are going to support only what type of rifle the member owns. This creates the koolaid atmosphere and it's damn near impossible to have an intellectual discussion on the subject.

My recommendation to you is that you find a site with an extensive training forum and read the AAR's from various courses. Most will mention if a particular weapon system has failed. After reading multiple reports you may see a pattern with a particular brand and decide you don't want to go that route.
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Last edited by pleaforwar; 02-15-2011 at 07:59..
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:01   #56
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Piston guns are head and shoulders above the rest. I have been issued both. Piston guns require less maintenance, clean faster, and tend to have less wear and breakage. Rails and accessories are easy to find. Our POF's run flawlessly.
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:00   #57
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Originally Posted by pleaforwar View Post
Yep. I have never cleaned my latest AR to the draconian standards of the NRA/military, and in the 3 courses (4000 +/-) rounds I have never had a firearm induced failure (couple of magazine and ammo failures).

OP: I own both piston and DI AR's, and I truly believe they both have their merits. One is a proven platform that will perform well under most circumstances, the other is an evolution of the AR and offers advantages to suppressed and/or SBR shooting. The problem you will run into with this type of discussion in mediums like online forums is that, for the most part, comments are going to support only what type of rifle the member owns. This creates the koolaid atmosphere and it's damn near impossible to have an intellectual discussion on the subject.

My recommendation to you is that you find a site with an extensive training forum and read the AAR's from various courses. Most will mention if a particular weapon system has failed. After reading multiple reports you may see a pattern with a particular brand and decide you don't want to go that route.
very good post!
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Old 02-15-2011, 10:15   #58
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My recommendation to you is that you find a site with an extensive training forum and read the AAR's from various courses. Most will mention if a particular weapon system has failed. After reading multiple reports you may see a pattern with a particular brand and decide you don't want to go that route.[/QUOTE]

Any particular sites with these AAR's?

Thanks
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Old 02-15-2011, 10:22   #59
mstennes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pleaforwar View Post
Yep. I have never cleaned my latest AR to the draconian standards of the NRA/military, and in the 3 courses (4000 +/-) rounds I have never had a firearm induced failure (couple of magazine and ammo failures).

OP: I own both piston and DI AR's, and I truly believe they both have their merits. One is a proven platform that will perform well under most circumstances, the other is an evolution of the AR and offers advantages to suppressed and/or SBR shooting. The problem you will run into with this type of discussion in mediums like online forums is that, for the most part, comments are going to support only what type of rifle the member owns. This creates the koolaid atmosphere and it's damn near impossible to have an intellectual discussion on the subject.

My recommendation to you is that you find a site with an extensive training forum and read the AAR's from various courses. Most will mention if a particular weapon system has failed. After reading multiple reports you may see a pattern with a particular brand and decide you don't want to go that route.
Very good post indeed, I have come to the conclusion, that allot of AR owners are experts because they heard this or read that. Heres a link most if not all will find very interesting.
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vsp...hy14_oct10.pdf
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Old 02-15-2011, 10:23   #60
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Originally Posted by pleaforwar View Post
My recommendation to you is that you find a site with an extensive training forum and read the AAR's from various courses. Most will mention if a particular weapon system has failed. After reading multiple reports you may see a pattern with a particular brand and decide you don't want to go that route.
That and look and see what real world trainers, end users are using who go in harms way, or teach those who do.

Last edited by mstennes; 02-15-2011 at 10:25..
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