[PhotoFeller]

I want a short barrel, pistol grip 12ga pump to carry concealed for hiking and jaunts in the Everglades and while driving long trips:

How short can the barrel be legally?

How much does the Federal stamp cost for this type of weapon with, say, a 12" barrel?

Does anyone make custom scabbards with a shoulder strap or over-the-back carry sling? The scabbard would have to conceal the gun completely.

Who builds a factory gun of this description, or would it be a custom build?

[uzimon]

chop it yourself and save $, after you get the $200 tax stamp back of course. on a form 1

[vafish]

18" is as short as the barrel can be without the $200 tax stamp.

If you want to go pistol grip only there is the option of an AOW for only a $5 tax stamp.

[PhotoFeller]

Originally Posted by vafish

18" is as short as the barrel can be without the $200 tax stamp.

If you want to go pistol grip only there is the option of an AOW for only a $5 tax stamp.

Sorry, but AOW isn't an abbreviation I'm familiar with. I sure like the sound of a $5 stamp. I want pistol grip only. What is the process to get the $5 stamp?

Who builds the gun I've described with a15" barrel? I'd like something similar to my Rem 870 quality wise.

Any thoughts on the scabbard?

Sorry to have so many questions. This is an area that I know nothing about and you guys are experts. Thanks.

[uzimon]

Originally Posted by PhotoFeller

Sorry, but AOW isn't an abbreviation I'm familiar with. I sure like the sound of a $5 stamp. I want pistol grip only. What is the process to get the $5 stamp?

Who builds the gun I've described with a15" barrel? I'd like something similar to my Rem 870 quality wise.

Any thoughts on the scabbard?

Sorry to have so many questions. This is an area that I know nothing about and you guys are experts. Thanks.

aow is "any other weapon". if you take a shotgun that was never designed to have a shoulder stock, and chop the bbl, it can be designated as an aow. if you "make" (chop) it yourself, you still have to pay a $200 tax stamp. you can buy an aow, but
an aow shotgun usually runs over $750, plus the $5 stamp. it cannot have a butttstock attached, otherwise it won't be an aow anymore, it'll be a short bbl shotgun.
you can get a $175 rem 870 from a pawn shop and chop it yourself and you will have everything an aow is and the ability to install a stock

[Glockster17]

Check this out: http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

[MrMurphy]

18" with a Butler Creek folding stock. Add a HSGI scabbard to the pack and camoflauge it up some so it doesn't scream gun.

Bring a pistol and four mags, you can't always have the long gun handy.

[PhotoFeller]

Originally Posted by MrMurphy

18" with a Butler Creek folding stock. Add a HSGI scabbard to the pack and camoflauge it up some so it doesn't scream gun.

Bring a pistol and four mags, you can't always have the long gun handy.

MrMurphy...

You seem familiar with the rig I seek. Tell me more.

I live in Florida, so I must carry my shotgun concealed. I visualize a short barrel shotgun in a quiver-type back pack with my ESSE Junglas knife attached. I want to be able to reach over my shoulder to draw the shotgun.

The HSGI scabbards I saw on their site were designed for guns with stocks; are you suggesting a short barrel might be concealed in one of these?

[MrMurphy]

Call HSGI.

Talk to Gene. He's the owner. Tell him what you're looking to do. Either they'll have something already like it, or they'll do a custom. A scabbard like they make for an M4 could easily be closed off with a flap and a fastex buckle without much work. It'd basically be a MOLLE-pack equivalent of the old M1A1 carbine paratrooper bag.

[PhotoFeller]

Originally Posted by MrMurphy

Call HSGI.

Talk to Gene. He's the owner. Tell him what you're looking to do. Either they'll have something already like it, or they'll do a custom. A scabbard like they make for an M4 could easily be closed off with a flap and a fastex buckle without much work. It'd basically be a MOLLE-pack equivalent of the old M1A1 carbine paratrooper bag.

My thanks. May I tell Gene you suggested I call?

Please explain the quote that accompanies your posts. Source? Significance to you...your philosophy?

[MrMurphy]

He does not know me under this name, though we once spent a few hours discussing a custom 40mm launcher rig being made for my unit at the time when I was stationed in Europe.


If you don't recognize a line from the Boondock Saints, you need to go watch it.

[8th SPS USAF]

SBS- short bbl shotgun- under 18" bbl with stock Tax $200
AOW- any othere weapon- under 18" bbl no stock Tax $5
If you cut your own BBL after you get the F1 back w/tax is $200
You can't cut a bbl and make it an AOW it has to come from factory this way

I have owned several Rem 870 AOW's very nice and fun guns to shoot

[PhotoFeller]

Originally Posted by 8th SPS USAF

SBS- short bbl shotgun- under 18" bbl with stock Tax $200
AOW- any othere weapon- under 18" bbl no stock Tax $5
If you cut your own BBL after you get the F1 back w/tax is $200
You can't cut a bbl and make it an AOW it has to come from factory this way

I have owned several Rem 870 AOW's very nice and fun guns to shoot

Do I need a lawyer to initiate the stamp acquisition? I assume there is an application process involving ATF.

Can I purchase the AOW or SBS prior to getting the stamp? There is a gun show coming up in 2weeks and I probably can't get a stamp by then.

Thanks.

[TxGun]

18" barrel; 26" OAL is legal. Less than that, you need a stamp.

[David Armstrong]

Originally Posted by PhotoFeller

Do I need a lawyer to initiate the stamp acquisition? I assume there is an application process involving ATF.

Can I purchase the AOW or SBS prior to getting the stamp? There is a gun show coming up in 2weeks and I probably can't get a stamp by then.

Thanks.

I'm going to throw a damper into the whole mess. Based on the posts you have little or know real knowledge about this isse. I'll also assume you have little or no experience with SBRs. The best thing you can do is go to a good Class 3 Dealer in your state, talk with him, and try to find a gun similar to what you think you want and try it out. The SBR (shotgun) is a very specialized firearm for actual use.

[Boeydafunk]

Good call Dave

[PhotoFeller]

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

I'm going to throw a damper into the whole mess. Based on the posts you have little or know real knowledge about this isse. I'll also assume you have little or no experience with SBRs. The best thing you can do is go to a good Class 3 Dealer in your state, talk with him, and try to find a gun similar to what you think you want and try it out. The SBR (shotgun) is a very specialized firearm for actual use.

What mess are you referring to? I admit to having little knowledge about the process of obtaining a stamp or, for that matter, the "specialized" nature of a short barrel shotgun. My query was not a fishing expedition nor was it insincere.

I was under the impression that this venue is provided for the free exchange of information from those who know to those who desire to know. Apparently you, Mr. Armstrong, because of your tenure, have decided my inquiry isn't based on sufficient knowledge of the subject. While I respect your vast knowledge and experience in these matters, I believe you have crossed the line here.

[PhotoFeller]

Originally Posted by Boeydafunk

Good call Dave

Just so I'll know how and when it's ok to ask a question in the future, please critique my posts by pointing out which statements contributed to the "mess". Thanks for your help.

[chemcmndr]

Originally Posted by PhotoFeller

Do I need a lawyer to initiate the stamp acquisition? I assume there is an application process involving ATF.

There is an application process that you must go through with the ATF that normally takes about 3 months. Whether or not you need a lawyer could depend on which route you take to acquiring your NFA firearms. Route 1 is called the "individual" route. This is where you fill out the paperwork in your name, submit your photograph and fingerprints for a background check and get the Chief LEO in your area to sign off on the forms saying that they have no reason to suspect you can't own NFA weapons. This option doesn't require a lawyer to be involved.

The second option is called the "trust" or "corporation" route. Here, a person will set up a living trust or a corporation that the weapons will be registered to. The advantage of this is so that multiple people (your family) can have access to or possess the weapons without having to file transfer paperwork, pay another tax, and wait another 3 months for ATF approval. The other reason people choose this route is if they have a Chief LEO that refuses to sign off on their paperwork. Since a trust or corporation is a business entity, the Chief LEO section on the form is left blank.

Originally Posted by PhotoFeller

Can I purchase the AOW or SBS prior to getting the stamp? There is a gun show coming up in 2weeks and I probably can't get a stamp by then.
Thanks.

By "purchase" if you mean just paying for the weapon, then yes, you can, and most likely will have to pay for it before you get the stamp. However, you cannot physically take possession of the weapon from the dealer or individual (if you file a form 4) or assemble/cut the barrel off of your shotgun (if you file a form 1) until you physically have the tax stamp in hand. In order to file the paperwork with the ATF, you need the serial number of the shotgun/AOW that you will be building/transferring.

Hope this helps. If you have any other questions, feel free to send me a PM.

[Boeydafunk]

Dave stated that since you lack knowledge about how and where to get such a shotgun, and that they are "specialized firearms" you should go speak with someone locally who can help you in your quest for such knowledge. I agree whole heartedly.

Secondly, why do you want a 12" barrel? Did you pick the number out of the air? Is 26" overall to large for your purpose? PM me and ill answer what ever I can for you.

In my opinion the rig you invision is worthless for all but a very small section of people and can be very dangerous to get out and put back in. This is not a movie. Instead of going through all the hassle, I would just go get a .44 magnum revolver and save the money. If you think of replying "with the shotgun I wont have to aim at something if its right there" get to a good class and learn about the shotgun.
DaFUnk

[ChuteTheMall]

Get a folding stock and an 18" tube, and avoid the paperwork.

Give that a fair trial before deciding you really need to shorten that barrel by 4 or 6 inches.
Also give the folding stock a fair trial before you decide to limit yourself to a pistol grip only.
I'm betting if the stock is unfolded, you'll be much faster and much more accurate. And when the stock is folded, well, there's your pistol grip version.

If you decide to go the AOW route, you are well advised to visit a local Class 3 dealer who can make your path smooth. I finally agreed with Dave.

Check out the link earlier in this thread to Serbu; I believe he's in Tampa, just above the swamps from you.

[WoodenPlank]

Originally Posted by PhotoFeller

MrMurphy...

You seem familiar with the rig I seek. Tell me more.

I live in Florida, so I must carry my shotgun concealed. I visualize a short barrel shotgun in a quiver-type back pack with my ESSE Junglas knife attached. I want to be able to reach over my shoulder to draw the shotgun.

The HSGI scabbards I saw on their site were designed for guns with stocks; are you suggesting a short barrel might be concealed in one of these?

I am pretty sure that a concealed, non-handgun firearm in Florida - even with CWL - is a no-no. Depending on where you are going to be (private property vs state park vs state game lands, etc), I would suggest some serious research into the legalities of doing such before you find yourself in a very deep hole.

ETA: That, combined with (as David pointed out) your obvious newness to SBR/SBS paperwork and legalities, seems to indicate to me you need to stay on the easy side of the legality fence, or perhaps avoid this shotgun route all-together. While getting an SBR/SBS/AOW/etc in FL is very doable (depending on county), the legalities of carrying and/or using one can get murky fast - especially anywhere other than private property, with landowner permission.

[PhotoFeller]

Thanks for your advice. It is very much appreciated.

After reflecting upon your comments, I am considering giving up this venture into a new area (for me) of firearm experience. Sounds like what I had in mind may be illegal in Florida, and I may not be well suited for a 'specialized' weapon anyway.

I regret my awkward effort to gather information about the stamp process, ATF regs, etc. My trip to the web site for ATF regs just wasn't fruitful. Sometimes it's more efficient to bite the bullet and schedule a bit of lawyer time.

Anyway, thanks for helping bring this thread to a quiet close.

[David Armstrong]

Originally Posted by PhotoFeller

What mess are you referring to? I admit to having little knowledge about the process of obtaining a stamp or, for that matter, the "specialized" nature of a short barrel shotgun.

Thus the mess.

My query was not a fishing expedition nor was it insincere.

Don't think anybody suggested otherwise.

I was under the impression that this venue is provided for the free exchange of information from those who know to those who desire to know. Apparently you, Mr. Armstrong, because of your tenure, have decided my inquiry isn't based on sufficient knowledge of the subject.

No, it has nothing to do with my tenure, it has everything to do with what you are asking and how you are asking it, which seems to indicate someone who has seen something they think is really spiffy in a magazine or on a video or something, and has come to a questionable decision about incorporating that object in to their lifestyle without having any real understanding of the issue.

While I respect your vast knowledge and experience in these matters, I believe you have crossed the line here. Furthermore, based upon all I have observed in your many posts, your comments seem a bit out of character.

Let's see now. You admit you don't have much if any idea what you are talking about, and I suggest that rather than fish around on an internet forum you actually go talk to someone who can tell you what is needed to do what you want AND who may be able to assist you in deciding if what you think you want is really what you want. If that bothers you perhaps it is you who needs to check out the lines.
You want me to step across the line. I don't mind. Here:
Buying an SBR shotgun for woods carry is a stupid idea. Putting it into a concealed scabbard to carry around on your back is a stupid idea.

Hope that cleared up any confusion.

[PhotoFeller]

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

Thus the mess.

Don't think anybody suggested otherwise.

No, it has nothing to do with my tenure, it has everything to do with what you are asking and how you are asking it, which seems to indicate someone who has seen something they think is really spiffy in a magazine or on a video or something, and has come to a questionable decision about incorporating that object in to their lifestyle without having any real understanding of the issue.

Let's see now. You admit you don't have much if any idea what you are talking about, and I suggest that rather than fish around on an internet forum you actually go talk to someone who can tell you what is needed to do what you want AND who may be able to assist you in deciding if what you think you want is really what you want. If that bothers you perhaps it is you who needs to check out the lines.
You want me to step across the line. I don't mind. Here:
Buying an SBR shotgun for woods carry is a stupid idea. Putting it into a concealed scabbard to carry around on your back is a stupid idea.

Hope that cleared up any confusion.

Thanks for a candid response. Perhaps my ideas lack wisdom, I'll give you that. I'll also concede that the idea is a bit unconventional.

I am 70, a little bit disabled with bad knees, but determined to continue prowling around outdoors, usually alone, in southwest Florida. When I moved here I envisioned exploring the bush with my 870 slung over my back as I did in Indiana for years; I just feel more comfortable with a shotgun than a handgun. However, open carry of a shotgun outside of hunting season is a no no. So, I bought a Judge; unfortunately it just didn't provide what I was looking for.

It occurred to me recently that it would be possible to carry a short shotgun in a pack or scabbard to satisfy the CC requirement and have real shotgun firepower. I am very conservative about firearm carry, and would not consider attempting to draw quickly from my back. I would probably carry condition 3 as I do a handgun. The primary idea would be to provide insurance in the event I get down and have to wait for help. We do have critters here...snakes, rabid skunks and raccoons, feral dogs, wild hogs, etc. Would a handgun accomplish the same thing? Yes, but I have always been a shotgun guy.

The reference I made to a 12" barrel was made only to probe for the regulatory requirement for a very short barrel length.

My remark about crossing the line referred to your generalization that the thread was a "mess", followed by criticism that I didn't know much about the subject. In fact, I was trying to gather information so I would know more about the regs and the ATF procedures. The tenor of your remarks, as I interpreted them, struck me as unnecessarily abrasive.

I hope you have a better understanding of the basis for my questions. I don't
expect you to think the idea had any merit. In fact, the entire proposition may be unlawful in Florida according to someone who posted that opinion.