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Old 03-06-2011, 19:15   #26
Sam Spade
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Please define "suitable".
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Old 03-06-2011, 19:27   #27
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So, my question is, what is "anti-authority" as it relates to an American Citizen under the Constitution?
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Are there any supreme court justices who are members of Glock talk?

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Old 03-06-2011, 20:02   #28
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Was Rosa Parks enlightened?

No, she didn't do what the man tell her to do. Anti-authority.


Civil Liberties Issues



Patrick Henry?

No again. What kind of loser doesn't sign the constitution?


Socrates?

Come on, Rick D. Do we have to get the GT authorities to make you drink your hemlock?

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Old 03-06-2011, 20:11   #29
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...I still haven't gotten a suitable answer to what anti-authoriatism is...
And I'll wager you will not read here any answer you deem suitable.

As Sam said, "Post #5."
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Old 03-06-2011, 21:16   #30
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Yes, I read Post #5 where he said that refusing to speak to police was "anti-authority" when, in fact it is SOP and taught to and practiced by every criminal defense attorney in the nation (or he'd be disbarred).

If, then, he is saying that such a commonplace is an example of anti-authority, then it has no real meaning in this Constitutional Republic where, I am told, we have a right to remain silent.

A non-starter, gents.
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Old 03-06-2011, 23:15   #31
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Is that what you read? Because it's not what I wrote.

Define "suitable".
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Old 03-07-2011, 01:16   #32
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Likewise, just because not talking to cops is often wise exercise of one's rights the instances of obstruction based on dislike of authority can't be wished away.
Which is it? Is it a right not to speak with the police or obstruction? It can't be both.

Or are you stating that a person who dislikes law enforcement loses the right to silence?
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Old 03-07-2011, 07:46   #33
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Hope that helps.
Rick,

Posting my response in your two other threads on the same subject to give you a chance to reply.
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Old 03-07-2011, 08:36   #34
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I'm 62 years old and I've seen the progression from the friendly neighborhood cop (who knew the difference between a criminal and decent folk) and the now militarized police force (yes "force") who generally treat everyone as a criminal until the individual can prove differently. A police force who's focus is on them going home safe...

How about being pro rights and expecting the government... and it's representatives/employees... to respect the rights of "we the people" and to obey the laws... starting with the law of the land the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights, the respective State Constitutions, and the respective lesser laws.

Would my expecting such a thing make me "anti authority"? Or does it just make me someone some LE think should just shut up and obey because "authority" is what keeps society together and the officer is that "authority"?

Oddly enough I'm not anti authority nor am I anti LE... I just expect LE to respect the same rights and obey the same laws I have to.
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:18   #35
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Which is it? Is it a right not to speak with the police or obstruction? It can't be both.

Or are you stating that a person who dislikes law enforcement loses the right to silence?
Sure it can be both. Or do you really believe that people can't have different motives for the same action?
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Old 03-07-2011, 16:48   #36
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I'm 62 years old and I've seen the progression from the friendly neighborhood cop (who knew the difference between a criminal and decent folk) and the now militarized police force (yes "force") who generally treat everyone as a criminal until the individual can prove differently.

...

Oddly enough I'm not anti authority nor am I anti LE... I just expect LE to respect the same rights and obey the same laws I have to.
I was always fairly neutral about such things until I started to notice changes in the mid-1990s. There were some glimpses of these things just starting in the late 1970s/early 1980s.

I don't know the details of LE training, but it seems LE is less likely to rely on commone sense and instincts than in the past. It seems like letting everyone prove they're not doing anything wrong is the path of least resistance.

I don't know a lot about LE on GT, but there is one law enforcement GT poster who has about 32 years experience. His posts usually strike common sense and reliance on skills.
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Old 03-07-2011, 17:01   #37
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...I don't know the details of LE training, but it seems LE is less likely to rely on commone sense and instincts than in the past. It seems like letting everyone prove they're not doing anything wrong is the path of least resistance...
What do you mean by the part in bold? Can you give an example?
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Old 03-07-2011, 17:56   #38
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What do you mean by the part in bold? Can you give an example?
Off-topic. Start a new thread if you wish to pursue this side issue.
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Old 03-07-2011, 18:01   #39
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What do you mean by the part in bold? Can you give an example?
--I see no common sense in this video. Here is a decorated veteran who complies, but the BP insists on harassment. The BP goes as far as calling CID.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meGJ0Wiou3U



--I see no common sense in this video. Terry Bressi passes through this checkpoint daily on his way to work at Kitt Observatory. The regular BP has clearly known his identity for the past several years. Terry has a pending lawsuit, but the BP insists on playing games.

The BP runs a drug sniffing dog around Terry’s car:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdDEBT-UoJ0

The rookie asks the other BP agents if he should just mess with Terry (except substitute the 4 letter word for intercourse).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd3eBXwBSfU
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--I can also tell you about and provide audio and video of Brett Darrow, the man Missouri police just can’t get enough of at their checkpoints. There’s also the case of Steven Anderson, the man who was tazed and beaten at a checkpoint when he declined to talk with law enforcement (the case against him was dismissed, by the way. Steven has now filed his own lawsuit).


--I could show you video from the San Diego man who went to Mexico to buy floor tiles and was harassed at an internal checkpoint. You can also listen to the story of my 82 year old neighbor who was bothered by our local sheriff who has nothing better to do in a sleepy town on a Saturday night.


--I can also give you accounts from people who drink one glass of wine at a restaurant. They are asked at a checkpoint if they’ve had anything to drink. They reply, “One glass of wine,” and are immediately sent to secondary for alcohol impairment testing. Call Sarah Longwell at the American Beverage Institute to get the lowdown on those stories.

--Have a conversation with former Boone North Carolina Police Chief, Bill Post. He once told me that detecting drunks in saturation patrols and roving patrols is too difficult. That is why they prefer checkpoints.


--I could show you the mounds of evidence showing that these checkpoints don’t work, either as a deterrent to drunk driving or arresting more drunks. Law enforcement still conducts checkpoints despite all of this evidence. I see no common sense in that.


--No, I won’t be talking to the police any more either. They can no longer tell the difference between a common drunk and someone standing up for their rights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIupHbRTpb8

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Old 03-07-2011, 19:49   #40
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
...I don't know the details of LE training, but it seems LE is less likely to rely on commone sense and instincts than in the past. It seems like letting everyone prove they're not doing anything wrong is the path of least resistance...
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What do you mean by the part in bold? Can you give an example?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
--I see no common sense in this video. Here is a decorated veteran who complies, but the BP insists on harassment. The BP goes as far as calling CID.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meGJ0Wiou3U



--I see no common sense in this video. Terry Bressi passes through this checkpoint daily on his way to work at Kitt Observatory. The regular BP has clearly known his identity for the past several years. Terry has a pending lawsuit, but the BP insists on playing games.

The BP runs a drug sniffing dog around Terry’s car:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdDEBT-UoJ0

The rookie asks the other BP agents if he should just mess with Terry (except substitute the 4 letter word for intercourse).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd3eBXwBSfU
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--I can also tell you about and provide audio and video of Brett Darrow, the man Missouri police just can’t get enough of at their checkpoints. There’s also the case of Steven Anderson, the man who was tazed and beaten at a checkpoint when he declined to talk with law enforcement (the case against him was dismissed, by the way. Steven has now filed his own lawsuit).


--I could show you video from the San Diego man who went to Mexico to buy floor tiles and was harassed at an internal checkpoint. You can also listen to the story of my 82 year old neighbor who was bothered by our local sheriff who has nothing better to do in a sleepy town on a Saturday night.


--I can also give you accounts from people who drink one glass of wine at a restaurant. They are asked at a checkpoint if they’ve had anything to drink. They reply, “One glass of wine,” and are immediately sent to secondary for alcohol impairment testing. Call Sarah Longwell at the American Beverage Institute to get the lowdown on those stories.

--Have a conversation with former Boone North Carolina Police Chief, Bill Post. He once told me that detecting drunks in saturation patrols and roving patrols is too difficult. That is why they prefer checkpoints.


--I could show you the mounds of evidence showing that these checkpoints don’t work, either as a deterrent to drunk driving or arresting more drunks. Law enforcement still conducts checkpoints despite all of this evidence. I see no common sense in that.


--No, I won’t be talking to the police any more either. They can no longer tell the difference between a common drunk and someone standing up for their rights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIupHbRTpb8
You make a broad, general comment that "LE is less likely to rely on commone sense and instincts than in the past."

Then you post links to incidents related to a very narrow aspect of law enforcement duties - checkpoints, border checkpoints and DUI checkpoints.

While I doubt you will agree, instincts and common sense are well and alive in the other parts of law enforcement. Now, if I am wrong, show me instances outside of "checkpoints" (although I still don't see the correlation between instincts and commonsense and DUI checkpoints) where instincts weren't applied.

Thanks...
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Old 03-07-2011, 21:02   #41
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Quote:
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Now, if I am wrong, show me instances outside of "checkpoints" (although I still don't see the correlation between instincts and commonsense and DUI checkpoints) where instincts weren't applied.

Thanks...
Police arresting elementary students for violation of "Zero Tolerance" policies, like drawing stick figures...

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-arvada...,7099823.story
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Old 03-07-2011, 21:31   #42
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Police arresting elementary students for violation of "Zero Tolerance" policies, like drawing stick figures...

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-arvada...,7099823.story
Who filed the complaint that caused the arrest? The school did. Are the police to ignore the complaint?

I suggest everyone read the linked news story. Here is a part of it.
Quote:
“Tim” is being treated for Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder and his therapist told him to draw pictures when got upset, rather than disrupt the class. So that’s what he did.

Last October, he drew stick figures of himself with a gun, pointed at four other stick figures with the words “teacher must die.” He felt calmer and was throwing the picture away when the teacher saw it and sent him to the principal’s office.
I guess instincts and common sense should dictate ignoring "teacher must die". Tell the school that. Their instincts and common sense said otherwise. They filed the complaint.

Or maybe it was the teacher who was the target of the drawing... Is he/she just a 'poor scared teacher'?..

[Edited to clarify sarcasm re: teacher]
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Old 03-07-2011, 21:46   #43
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(although I still don't see the correlation between instincts and commonsense and DUI checkpoints) where instincts weren't applied.

Well, I can only ask you to take a look at those videos and read my examples again. I am not even in law enforcement, but those are quite obvious to me. If you don't agree with those, it is not likely you'd agree with other types (outside checkpoints) of 4th amendment issues I have already posted in this forum.

I also would not call checkpoints a narrow issue, especially when its involvement include a wide variety of groups: DHS, local and county law enforcement in 39 states, MADD, Department of Transportation, etc. The Supreme Court has basically declared 100 miles in the US border a constitution free zone for internal border patrol checkpoints. That is no narrow strip of land.
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Old 03-08-2011, 04:32   #44
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Tell the school that. Their instincts and common sense said otherwise. They filed the complaint.

Yeah, the instincts of the school were so good that they sent the kid back to his class and just let him go home that day. The common sense of the police was so good that they went to the kid’s house that night for an arrest, complete with fingerprinting and time behind bars. Maybe his cellmate was that New Jersey 7 year old with his assault nerf gun.


Or maybe it was the teacher who was the target of the drawing... Poor scared teacher...

Oh, the target, huh? Hope that teacher was wearing a diaper.

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Old 03-08-2011, 06:27   #45
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Sure it can be both. Or do you really believe that people can't have different motives for the same action?
No, it can't be both. Silence is a legal right and obstruction is a crime. Its one or the other.
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Old 03-08-2011, 09:33   #46
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No, it can't be both. Silence is a legal right and obstruction is a crime. Its one or the other.
False dilemma. And maybe you mistook my use of "obstruction". I used it in the common manner, not the criminal one.

Q: Are there people who advocate or practice not ever talking to police under any circumstances?
A: Yes.

Suppose police ask them about something for the public good, in no way intended or able to incriminate them, and they spout the "Am I being detained/talk to my lawyer" line. Might a reasonable person class that as obstructionist behavior, fueled by anti-authority views, maybe rationalized as exercise of rights? I say yes, and I'll bet reasonable people agree. Let's experiment:

Me: Excuse me, Mr. WC....I'm looking for a missing child. She's not dressed for the weather and needs her insulin.

You (remember, you aren't guilty of anything): I have nothing to say about that. Contact my attorney if you want any information. Am I being detained?

Do you really see that as a plucky Everyman hero, engaged in the noble exercise of his rights? Or do you see a jerk?
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Old 03-08-2011, 11:05   #47
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Well, I can only ask you to take a look at those videos and read my examples again. I am not even in law enforcement, but those are quite obvious to me.
Have you ever sat down with people in law enforcement and discussed those examples?
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If you don't agree with those, it is not likely you'd agree with other types (outside checkpoints) of 4th amendment issues I have already posted in this forum.
Why do you say it's not likely I'll agree that there may be 4th Amendment issues in other aspects of enforcing the laws of the land?
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I also would not call checkpoints a narrow issue, especially when its involvement include a wide variety of groups: DHS, local and county law enforcement in 39 states, MADD, Department of Transportation, etc. The Supreme Court has basically declared 100 miles in the US border a constitution free zone for internal border patrol checkpoints. That is no narrow strip of land.
Check points are a larger part of law enforcement in some regions based on problems unique to that piece of geographic area. It becomes a larger part of the policing effort in other areas based on time of year.

When has MADD set up checkpoints? And, I didn't realize DOT had police powers to enforce state laws.
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Old 03-08-2011, 11:32   #48
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Yeah, the instincts of the school were so good that they sent the kid back to his class and just let him go home that day. The common sense of the police was so good that they went to the kid’s house that night for an arrest, complete with fingerprinting and time behind bars. Maybe his cellmate was that New Jersey 7 year old with his assault nerf gun.
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Oh, the target, huh? Hope that teacher was wearing a diaper.
I don't believe any of us have all the facts surrounding this. That should make it sorta hard to draw reasonable conclusions about the actions of the school and police.

An interesting fact is the incident occurred last October, yet the report is dated February 22, 2011. Was there a news article in October?
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Old 03-08-2011, 11:39   #49
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Have you ever sat down with people in law enforcement and discussed those examples?

Yes, read post #39.

Why do you say it's not likely I'll agree that there may be 4th Amendment issues in other aspects of enforcing the laws of the land?

You'll have to tell me. I am basing that on your reaction to my examples in post #39. You made the comment that nothing went wrong in any of those examples.
You seem to think that it's okay for a border patrol agent to consider motorist Terry Bressi and then ask his fellow agents, "What do you usually do, just **** with him?" You seem to think it's okay for BP to lie (first video) and then call the motorist's CO and CID.

Check points are a larger part of law enforcement in some regions based on problems unique to that piece of geographic area. It becomes a larger part of the policing effort in other areas based on time of year.

Washington State just defeated a bill that proposed checkpoints in that state. The bill did not even get a reading on the floor. Texas is currently considering a bill, but those proposals have gone down to defeat every single year since 2003.

I have gathered evidence for the past three years showing checkpoints do not work, either as a deterrent or for arresting drunks. I'll post this evidence if you are going to read it. You did not seem to bother much with my other examples, so you tell me if you will consider it.

When has MADD set up checkpoints? And, I didn't realize DOT had police powers to enforce state laws.

MADD aggressively pushes for checkpoints legislation in the 11 states that prohibit them. The Department of Transportation gives money to states and localities that perform checkpoints.
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Old 03-08-2011, 11:43   #50
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I don't believe any of us have all the facts surrounding this. That should make it sorta hard to draw reasonable conclusions about the actions of the school and police.

Well, you seemed to draw conclusions in your post.

Watch the video. It is more extensive than the article.

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