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Old 03-08-2011, 12:14   #51
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
I don't believe any of us have all the facts surrounding this. That should make it sorta hard to draw reasonable conclusions about the actions of the school and police.

An interesting fact is the incident occurred last October, yet the report is dated February 22, 2011. Was there a news article in October?
It was quite clearly presented on the news that the school allowed him to return to class because he wasnt a threat and the police came to his home later that night. I saw it on the evening news.

There is more going on in that City (Arvada) than meets the eye.

-Dana
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Old 03-08-2011, 12:18   #52
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Lets be honest here. Terry Bressi and the border patrol (regardless of who is right and who is wrong) are in what used to be called a pissing match.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines a pissing contest as "a competition to see who can urinate the farthest or highest" and (in extended use) as "any contest which is futile or purposeless especially ones pursued in a conspicuously aggressive manner."

When pissing matches start, they don't end easily.

-Dana
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Old 03-08-2011, 12:24   #53
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My interaction with the CBP agents is always quite pleasant. The "agent" asks be to put my passport on a scanner, put my finger on the glass to make sure I am who I say I am and in 30 seconds I am on my way. The border agent Kiosk always even welcomes me to the USA.

Back when I had to take the human CBP agent, I came into the country over my limit on alcohol. The agent asked me what I had. I said 5 liters of wine. He said only 3 were allowed duty free. I offered to pay the import duty and he said to continue on and didnt want to collect the tax but thanks for declaring the taxable items.

Sometimes, I have figured out in life if you are an *****hat to people, they will be *****hats right back. If you treat them nicely, they often are more willing to help out.

I bet that if Terri would have made a good impression on them and he saw the agents every day, they would wave him through since they obviosuly recognize people. But what do I know?

-Dana
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Old 03-08-2011, 12:35   #54
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The "agent" asks be to put my passport on a scanner, put my finger on the glass to make sure I am who I say I am and in 30 seconds I am on my way. The border agent Kiosk always even welcomes me to the USA.

We are talking about internal border patrol checkpoints. The examples I present never involve crossing an international border. You can encounter one of these checkpoints up to 100 miles inside the US border.
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Old 03-08-2011, 12:41   #55
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Lets be honest here. Terry Bressi and the border patrol (regardless of who is right and who is wrong) are in what used to be called a pissing match.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines a pissing contest as "a competition to see who can urinate the farthest or highest" and (in extended use) as "any contest which is futile or purposeless especially ones pursued in a conspicuously aggressive manner."

When pissing matches start, they don't end easily.

-Dana
Terry is simply traveling back and forth to work. He is not crossing an international border. The camera is to protect himself.

No, this has not ended easily, but it will be decided by a court of law. The case is currently pending and will likely have ramifications for BP checkpoints in Maine, Washington, and other areas. It could also have an effect on local law enforcement checkpoints.

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Old 03-08-2011, 13:00   #56
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
We are talking about internal border patrol checkpoints. The examples I present never involve crossing an international border. You can encounter one of these checkpoints up to 100 miles inside the US border.
I do not agree with border checkpoint not at the border. That said, the officers did not choose where to put the check points.

I also don't agree with many TSA regulations to fly.

However, that said, if you try and get into a pissing match with the cop/CBP agent/TSA agent/tax guy, they will generally oblige your request. Generally they have the upper hand.

For example, in my line of work, I have to fly lot. I have the choice if the closet homosexual wants to feel me up or not. But the choice is I don't fly. If I want a pissing match, at a minimum I don't get on the plane. That means no paycheck. So, its wise to choose pissing matches.

-Dana
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Old 03-08-2011, 13:22   #57
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
Yes, read post #39.
You talked to one former Chief of Police?
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
You'll have to tell me. I am basing that on your reaction to my examples in post #39. You made the comment that nothing went wrong in any of those examples.
How about quoting where I said that.
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
You seem to think that it's okay for a border patrol agent to consider motorist Terry Bressi and then ask his fellow agents, "What do you usually do, just **** with him?" You seem to think it's okay for BP to lie (first video) and then call the motorist's CO and CID.
Again, where did I say that?
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
Washington State just defeated a bill that proposed checkpoints in that state. The bill did not even get a reading on the floor. Texas is currently considering a bill, but those proposals have gone down to defeat every single year since 2003.

I have gathered evidence for the past three years showing checkpoints do not work, either as a deterrent or for arresting drunks. I'll post this evidence if you are going to read it. You did not seem to bother much with my other examples, so you tell me if you will consider it.
Your reply has no relationship to my comment. I read your other examples. I just chose to not comment on them individually. No need to post your evidence. I already believe DUI checkpoints have different results depending on time and place.
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MADD aggressively pushes for checkpoints legislation in the 11 states that prohibit them. The Department of Transportation gives money to states and localities that perform checkpoints.
Yep, they do that, but you lumped them in with law enforcement in your previous posts.
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Old 03-08-2011, 13:33   #58
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Well, you seemed to draw conclusions in your post.
What conclusions did I draw?
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Watch the video. It is more extensive than the article.
I did, and still, we don't have all the facts.
Don't you have further questions of the school administrators? How about the teacher? How about other students? How about the parents? How about relatives? How about the police officers who took the school's complaint? How about the officers dispatched to bring the boy in?

Any questions, or is the media's interpretation based on their limited facts enough?
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Old 03-08-2011, 15:39   #59
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I already believe DUI checkpoints have different results depending on time and place.

You believe that based on what evidence? I have never found one police report, figure, etc. that shows checkpoints apprehend more drunks than roving patrols. There is no evidence that checkpoints are a deterrent.

There is plenty of evidence showing roving patrols always work better than checkpoints. There is evidence that checkpoints are not a deterrent.

The DHS, itself, said internal border patrol checkpoints are ineffective.
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Old 03-08-2011, 15:44   #60
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NCL,

IMHO "deterrence" is always hard to measure. It's the old "prove a negative" thing.

Effectiveness, or potential effectiveness, may be easier to discuss.

Myself, I've always been a fan of roving patrols, but also know that when we (MN) did sobriety checkpoints, there were people who were deterred from driving because even thought they felt they were "good drunk drivers" they didn't want to get caught in a net, despite having "no driving conduct".

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Old 03-08-2011, 15:53   #61
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That said, the officers did not choose where to put the check points.

Yes, they do.



However, that said, if you try and get into a pissing match with the cop/CBP agent/TSA agent/tax guy, they will generally oblige your request. Generally they have the upper hand.


We are not talking urinating matches. We are talking right and wrong.

They did not get the upper hand with any of these motorists:


Apparently the officer does not know the definition of obstruction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIupHbRTpb8


The officer should keep his hands out of people's cars. It's a good way to lose your arm if a dog is on the seat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btzlmMRU6pI


Why won't the BP agent tell the motorist where he's been all day?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1e7EBze6ho


The stumblings of this rookie agent tells me she should learn the law:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6uw7506xMw


This BP agent wants to search the motorist's car because the car is dirty. Try again, BP agent:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4zYizaMmDo





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Old 03-08-2011, 16:02   #62
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NCL,

IMHO "deterrence" is always hard to measure. It's the old "prove a negative" thing.
It's not hard to measure; it just has not been done that much. Here is one example showing checkpoints are not a deterrent:

The Maryland anti-drunk driving campaign called Checkpoint Strikeforce was evaluated for deterrence. The review found that there was no deterrent effect:

"To date, there is no evidence to indicate that this campaign, which involves a number of sobriety checkpoints and media activities to promote these efforts, has had any impact on public perceptions, driver behaviors, or alcohol-related motor vehicle crashes and injuries. This conclusion is drawn after examining statistics for alcohol-related crashes, police citations for impaired driving, and public perceptions of alcohol-impaired driving risk. (Source: Health Promotion Reports, July 1 2009)



Effectiveness, or potential effectiveness, may be easier to discuss.
What is potential effectiveness?


Myself, I've always been a fan of roving patrols, but also know that when we (MN) did sobriety checkpoints, there were people who were deterred from driving because even thought they felt they were "good drunk drivers" they didn't want to get caught in a net, despite having "no driving conduct".
I hope you're not talking Minnesota. Checkpoints are illegal in that state. Unless, of course, you are talking about those "voluntary" checkpoints that LE tried to slip under the radar and other watchful eyes.
Who were these people who did not want to get caught? How many? Did you measure this?

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Old 03-08-2011, 16:25   #63
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So was OPs question ever answered?

----------------------------------------------------------------

Which is a person who doesn't talk to the police?

An obstructionist obstructing just to obstruct.

OR

A citizen exercising his or her 4th amendment right.

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Old 03-08-2011, 16:39   #64
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I already believe DUI checkpoints have different results depending on time and place.
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
You believe that based on what evidence? I have never found one police report, figure, etc. that shows checkpoints apprehend more drunks than roving patrols. There is no evidence that checkpoints are a deterrent.

There is plenty of evidence showing roving patrols always work better than checkpoints. There is evidence that checkpoints are not a deterrent.

The DHS, itself, said internal border patrol checkpoints are ineffective.
Where did I quantify the effectiveness of DUI checkpoints?

Where did I say they are/are not a deterrent?

You are engineering responses to phantom arguments I am not making.

How about responding to the questions I asked.
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Old 03-08-2011, 16:43   #65
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NCL,

IMHO "deterrence" is always hard to measure. It's the old "prove a negative" thing.

Effectiveness, or potential effectiveness, may be easier to discuss.

Myself, I've always been a fan of roving patrols, but also know that when we (MN) did sobriety checkpoints, there were people who were deterred from driving because even thought they felt they were "good drunk drivers" they didn't want to get caught in a net, despite having "no driving conduct".

TBO, are other non-alcohol related offenders caught during a sobriety checkpoint operation?
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Old 03-08-2011, 17:06   #66
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Where did I quantify the effectiveness of DUI checkpoints?

Where did I say they are/are not a deterrent?

You are engineering responses to phantom arguments I am not making.

How about responding to the questions I asked.
What is this, a Laurel and Hardy skit?

You say you believe sobriety checkpoints have "different results depending on time and place." Please show your evidence.

I say otherwise. Here are examples from my evidence:

1.The FBI compared saturation patrols vs. checkpoints in Ohio, Missouri, and Tennessee. The study showed that, “Overall, measured in arrests per hour, a dedicated saturation patrol is the most effective method of apprehending offenders.” (Source: FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, January 2003)

2. "I'm no big fan of them," Chief Deputy Pat Butler [Ohio County, West Virginia] said about checkpoints. "They're OK for informational purposes, but I think DUI saturation patrols are much more effective." (Source: Kansas City Star, July 8, 2008)

3. "States with infrequent checkpoints claimed a lack of funding and police resources for not conducting more checkpoints, preferred saturation patrols over checkpoints because they were more "productive," and used large number of police officers at checkpoints." (Source: Accident Analysis and Prevention, November 2003)

4. “If you look at statistics, statistics will probably tell you a saturation patrol is more successful…” said Lt. David Kloos, barrack commander for the Maryland State Police Hagerstown barrack. A typical checkpoint uses about 10 troopers for five hours and costs about $2,000, he said. During the last State Police checkpoint in Hagerstown, held Oct. 31, troopers stopped 880 cars and made three DUI arrests, Kloos said. Saturation patrols watching alternate routes around the checkpoint made one additional DUI arrest, he said. A saturation patrol without a checkpoint requires only three or four troopers and costs a fraction of what a checkpoint costs. The troopers work four hours of overtime, usually from 11 p.m. until 3 a.m., and each aims to make three to four stops per hour, Kloos said. (Source: Hagerstown Herald Mail December 28 2008)

5. I personally corresponded with former Boone North Carolina Police Chief Bill Post regarding a November 20 2008 checkpoint in Boone. Chief Post told me that 10% of drivers are impaired after 10pm. This would mean (he said) that 10% of drivers are arrested per checkpoint. In fact, the arrest rate at the November 20 checkpoint was 1-2%. (Source: Correspondence with Chief Post November 28 2008).

6. A checkpoint in Tuscon Arizona yielded a less than one percent arrest rate. A total of 571 vehicles passed the checkpoint, with 4 DUI arrests, a rate of 7/10 of one percent. (Source: Pima County Sheriff’s Document October 5 2005)

7. Saturation patrols vs. checkpoints in Worcester County Maryland:

August 27, 2010 checkpoint
739 cars
0 DWI arrests
Arrest rate: 0%


August 27, 2010 roving patrol
32 cars
2 DWI arrests
Arrest rate: 8%


Source:
www.delmarvanow.com
August 29, 2010



8. People reject checkpoints when they know the facts:
From trafficsafetyinfo.net:

Gov. Chris Gergoire’s plan to institute checkpoints to catch drunk drivers has stalled in Olympia. Judging by the results of an online poll by the Whatcom County Traffic Safety Task Force, local residents wouldn’t have taken too kindly to it either.
From Traffic Safety Coordinator Doug Dahl:

Two weeks ago our online poll asked Whatcom County drivers if they wanted sobriety checkpoints in our state. Visitors to our site overwhelmingly voted “NO” to DUI checkpoints. The final results were as follows:

yes: 20% (30 votes)
no: 80% (117 votes)

Some people who responded also included an e-mail explaining their point of view. You can read those responses at www.trafficsafetyinfo.com.

Update: The most recently proposed WA State checkpoint bill went down to almost immediate defeat on February 17 2011. It did not even get a reading on the floor. I received about 15 email replies (including the committee chair) that expressed opposition to this bill.


9. The Maryland anti-drunk driving campaign called Checkpoint Strikeforce was evaluated for deterrence. The review found that there was no deterrent effect:

"To date, there is no evidence to indicate that this campaign, which involves a number of sobriety checkpoints and media activities to promote these efforts, has had any impact on public perceptions, driver behaviors, or alcohol-related motor vehicle crashes and injuries. This conclusion is drawn after examining statistics for alcohol-related crashes, police citations for impaired driving, and public perceptions of alcohol-impaired driving risk. (Source: Health Promotion Reports, July 1 2009)




10. By some estimates, police fail to detect signs of impairment in one-half of drivers with blood alcohol concentrations higher than the legal limit, so sobriety checkpoints are hardly foolproof. Mcknight and Voas, 2001—“Prevention of Alcohol-Related Road Crashes” In International Handbook of Alcohol Dependence and Problems Chicester (United Kingdom): Wiley

Also in: “Drinking drivers missed at sobriety checkpoints” Journal of Studies on Alcohol; v. 58; pages 513-517; JK wells; MA Greene; RD Foss; SA Ferguson; AF Williams; 1997

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Old 03-08-2011, 17:09   #67
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So was OPs question ever answered?
No, it seems that some here like to ask a lot of questions and make assertions without much evidence.
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Old 03-08-2011, 17:23   #68
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TBO, are other non-alcohol related offenders caught during a sobriety checkpoint operation?
Yes, such things as:
  • Drugs
  • Guns
  • Warrants
  • Deserters
  • Driving License violations (DAR/DAS/DAC/etc)
  • Insurance violations
  • Registration violations
  • Equipment violations
  • Other arrests (Domestic Violence, Restraining Order violations, Probations violations, etc).

There's more, but that's a good list.
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Old 03-08-2011, 17:25   #69
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What is this, a Laurel and Hardy skit?

You say you believe sobriety checkpoints have "different results depending on time and place." Please show your evidence....
Laurel & Hardy? No, this a a one man monologue...you're the expert on checkpoints.

Just for the record, what is the basis, the reason for your fight against checkpoints? Never mind...I found what I was looking for.
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Old 03-08-2011, 17:27   #70
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You talked to one former Chief of Police?
That is one example (he was chief at the time, by the way). I have not seen any examples of anything from you.

Are we not talking? Have I not talked with other LE here? I also read the COP forum and GNG.

I have also talked with mayors and council members of two towns in my area. I have talked with patrol officers. I have read views about checkpoints from other officers.
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Old 03-08-2011, 17:36   #71
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Yes, such things as:
  • Drugs
  • Guns
  • Warrants
  • Deserters
  • Driving License violations (DAR/DAS/DAC/etc)
  • Insurance violations
  • Registration violations
  • Equipment violations
  • Other arrests (Domestic Violence, Restraining Order violations, Probations violations, etc).

There's more, but that's a good list.
That's pretty similar to what other law enforcement officers I know have told me over the last few years.

Those who make the mid-block u-turns can be fun, too.
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Old 03-08-2011, 17:59   #72
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That's pretty similar to what other law enforcement officers I know have told me over the last few years.

Those who make the mid-block u-turns can be fun, too.

So, the "sobriety" checkpoints really are not what people claim.

You might also add other items to that list, including checkpoints for seatbelts, child car seats, and fireworks (yes, fireworks).

Here are some of the fines for seatbelt violations in various states:


Alabama, $10
California, $147
Connecticut, $37
Hawaii, $55
Massachusetts, $25
North Carolina, $100
Oregon, $107
Rhode Island, $85
Washington, $124

Source: My phone calls to various DMVs, March 2010


It is now my conclusion that the "sobriety" checkpoints are really not effective at doing much of anything regarding drunks. Those same "sobriety" checkpoints however, have written themselves a blank check to check about anything they'd like.

It is certainly gratifying to see the police parenting everyone, while also cashing in with hefty fines.
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Old 03-08-2011, 18:09   #73
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Laurel & Hardy? No, this a a one man monologue...you're the expert on checkpoints.

Well, it is interesting to have conversations with people who are involved with checkpoints. I find that many make assumptions that checkpoints work. There are others who know they don't work, but stubbornly cling to them.


State legislators and others can get very overwhelmed, so they often don't have the details regarding a particular issue.


Just for the record, what is the basis, the reason for your fight against checkpoints? Never mind...I found what I was looking for.

It's because I'm anti-authority, of course.
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Old 03-08-2011, 21:17   #74
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So, the "sobriety" checkpoints really are not what people claim.

You might also add other items to that list, including checkpoints for seatbelts, child car seats, and fireworks (yes, fireworks).

Here are some of the fines for seatbelt violations in various states:


Alabama, $10
California, $147
Connecticut, $37
Hawaii, $55
Massachusetts, $25
North Carolina, $100
Oregon, $107
Rhode Island, $85
Washington, $124

Source: My phone calls to various DMVs, March 2010


It is now my conclusion that the "sobriety" checkpoints are really not effective at doing much of anything regarding drunks. Those same "sobriety" checkpoints however, have written themselves a blank check to check about anything they'd like.

It is certainly gratifying to see the police parenting everyone, while also cashing in with hefty fines.
In doing your research, did you record the number of people cited or apprehended for the commission of other crimes?
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Old 03-08-2011, 21:18   #75
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
It's because I'm anti-authority, of course.
Yes you are.
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