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Old 03-09-2011, 10:50   #101
NorthCarolinaLiberty
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.....
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
I do not believe anyone else on GT has accumulated the data you have. I have not.
You have no data, but you seem to be in favor of them. I don't want to put words in your mouth though, so I will ask you. Are you in favor of checkpoints?

I stated above the sources of my information.

No, you did not. You stated that you “...believe DUI checkpoints have different results depending on time and place." You did not supply a source of information.
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:54   #102
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Do I really need to run a checkpoint in a school zone on Wednesday morning to show that I get different results from one near the bars at 0100 Saturday?

If the number of drunks on the road varies by day and time--and it does--then checkpoint results, which sample the cars on the road, have to vary as well. C'mon.
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
And yet, surprisingly, places like school zones are where checkpoints are run. And yes, I can document that, too.

I have also observed such checkpoints. My neighbor encountered one on our farm road. Yep, that's right, a farm road. I also once noticed an officer doing impromptu checkpoints when I lived in Iredell County. He was getting out of his car and holding up his hand to stop cars. His blue light was not flashing, as required by law. I walked up to question him, but he quickly made himself scarce. Guess he got tired of dealing with Amish farmers.
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
You don't get different results. The failure rate is the same. And yes, I can document that, too.

If you have something to the contrary, then please post it.
Please, do show documentation of DUI checkpoints in school zones at 1000 hrs and DUI checkpoints at 0100 hrs near bars.

This should be interesting. I really want to know the agencies setting up DUI checkpoints in a school zone at 1000 hrs.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:06   #103
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Not everyone is as rabid about the checkpoint issue as you.

No, my friend, just responding to rabid law enforcement. Kind of like this law enforcement agent who asks his superiors if he should **** with a motorist.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd3eBXwBSfU
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:09   #104
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Local media reports

So the 11 o'clock news is doing a comparison of checkpoints between school zones, bars, and highway exits?
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:14   #105
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I also spoke with the officer who was awarded a citation for his DUI arrest record one year resulting from his patrol activity. He confirmed that it's all about being in the right place at the right time within his patrol area.

Saturation patrol or checkpoint?

So, yes, I believe if you're not set up in an appropriate position at an appropriate time, results will be poor. If you're in the proper place at the appropriate time, the results will be better.

Checkpoints only allow you to be in one place at one time. You basically wait for offenders to come to you.

That might also come under the classification of using instincts and common sense to recognize the difference.
Instincts are used in patrol, not in waiting for offenders to come to you while sitting at a checkpoint.


You also never answered my main question. If roving/saturation patrols always work better than checkpoints, why would you use checkpoints?

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Old 03-09-2011, 11:16   #106
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This should be interesting. I really want to know the agencies setting up DUI checkpoints in a school zone at 1000 hrs.

What are you going to do about it?
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:18   #107
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
No, my friend, just responding to rabid law enforcement. Kind of like this law enforcement agent who asks his superiors if he should **** with a motorist...
Responding in a like kind way...rabid...like I said.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:21   #108
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Please, do show documentation of DUI checkpoints in school zones at 1000 hrs and DUI checkpoints at 0100 hrs near bars.

This should be interesting. I really want to know the agencies setting up DUI checkpoints in a school zone at 1000 hrs.
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
What are you going to do about it?
So you really do not have documentation of the difference between the two situations.

Okay...
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:25   #109
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
So the 11 o'clock news is doing a comparison of checkpoints between school zones, bars, and highway exits?
Not that I remember, but, again, I did not say they did, did I.

I asked you for your information showing the "comparison of checkpoints between school zones, bars..." which you said you have.

Of course you expanded that to include a new element not mentioned before by me, a "highway exit".
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:25   #110
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I would like to see the data in your collection where there were arrests for DUI to include whether they were just first time offenders, repeat offenders, habitual offenders, offenders previously involved in accidents resulting in injury or death, offenders on probation for previous DUI convictions, and offenders driving on licenses suspended for previous DUI arrests and convictions.

Yes, I'm sure you would.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:46   #111
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I also spoke with the officer who was awarded a citation for his DUI arrest record one year resulting from his patrol activity. He confirmed that it's all about being in the right place at the right time within his patrol area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
Saturation patrol or checkpoint?
Read the parts in bold. Again, you quoted the answer to your question.

Wait, you said "saturation patrol". You defined that earlier as three or four patrol units working in concert (to paraphrase). No, he worked alone, as I understand the citation and his fellow patrol officers.
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
So, yes, I believe if you're not set up in an appropriate position at an appropriate time, results will be poor. If you're in the proper place at the appropriate time, the results will be better.
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
Checkpoints only allow you to be in one place at one time. You basically wait for offenders to come to you.
How does your response have anything to do with my statement comment about selecting the most appropriate location and time for a DUI operation?
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
That might also come under the classification of using instincts and common sense to recognize the difference.
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
Instincts are used in patrol, not in waiting for offenders to come to you while sitting at a checkpoint.
It applies to the selection of time and location regardless of technique.
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You also never answered my main question. If roving/saturation patrols always work better than checkpoints, why would you use checkpoints?
That's probably better answered by the administrators within the departments using both methods.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:50   #112
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Yes, I'm sure you would.
More evidence of the "kwikrnu syndrome".

Have fun playing your game with others...
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Last edited by RussP; 03-09-2011 at 11:53..
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:17   #113
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If anybody is interested in checkpoint information beyond this thread, please check the following websites:


www.checkpointusa.org
This is probably the best source of information on the internet for internal border patrol checkpoints. Terry Bressi is the owner and currently has a pending court case. Terry has spent over $12,000 of his own money and countless hours.
You can contribute to his legal fund or just contribute to the discussion. Find information on others types of checkpoints. There are other good links, videos, and useful information.




www.roadblock.org
Roadblock Registry. List a checkpoint you have encountered or find the locations of checkpoints. Learn about checkpoints in general.




www.abionline.org
The American Beverage Institute


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Old 03-09-2011, 12:46   #114
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Please, do show documentation of DUI checkpoints in school zones at 1000 hrs and DUI checkpoints at 0100 hrs near bars.

This should be interesting. I really want to know the agencies setting up DUI checkpoints in a school zone at 1000 hrs.
Your request is at least as silly as the checkpoints you oppose. No I'm not going to.

On the off chance that you're both serious and well-intentioned about this, I'll direct your attention to NHTSA at http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811155.PDF . Go to page 3 and note that there is up to a 4x variation on impaired-driver events between day-time and night-time, even as days have more traffic due to business and commutes. Note also the variance between weekend and weekday. That checkpoints sample from the same population of drivers on the roads can't help but to see a variation in people they encounter requires only trivial deduction.

Moving on...
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Old 03-09-2011, 13:07   #115
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Do I really need to run a checkpoint in a school zone on Wednesday morning to show that I get different results from one near the bars at 0100 Saturday?

If the number of drunks on the road varies by day and time--and it does--then checkpoint results, which sample the cars on the road, have to vary as well. C'mon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
And yet, surprisingly, places like school zones are where checkpoints are run. And yes, I can document that, too.

I have also observed such checkpoints. My neighbor encountered one on our farm road. Yep, that's right, a farm road. I also once noticed an officer doing impromptu checkpoints when I lived in Iredell County. He was getting out of his car and holding up his hand to stop cars. His blue light was not flashing, as required by law. I walked up to question him, but he quickly made himself scarce. Guess he got tired of dealing with Amish farmers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
You don't get different results. The failure rate is the same. And yes, I can document that, too.

If you have something to the contrary, then please post it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Please, do show documentation of DUI checkpoints in school zones at 1000 hrs and DUI checkpoints at 0100 hrs near bars.

This should be interesting. I really want to know the agencies setting up DUI checkpoints in a school zone at 1000 hrs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Your request is at least as silly as the checkpoints you oppose. No I'm not going to.

On the off chance that you're both serious and well-intentioned about this, I'll direct your attention to NHTSA at http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811155.PDF . Go to page 3 and note that there is up to a 4x variation on impaired-driver events between day-time and night-time, even as days have more traffic due to business and commutes. Note also the variance between weekend and weekday. That checkpoints sample from the same population of drivers on the roads can't help but to see a variation in people they encounter requires only trivial deduction.

Moving on...
I believe you wanted to quote NCL, too.
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Old 03-09-2011, 14:19   #116
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Well,

I can sum this thread up very easily. Anyone who attempts to follow it is more likely to get a DUI than someone who doesn't. This thread only makes sense if you drink a lot of alcohol and will drive a person to drink who attempts to understand it. Therefore, since a drunk person is more likely to get a DUI than a sober person, this thread can cause a person to be more likely to get a DUI.

I am off to get a beer....

-Dana
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Old 03-09-2011, 17:21   #117
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False dilemma. And maybe you mistook my use of "obstruction". I used it in the common manner, not the criminal one.

Q: Are there people who advocate or practice not ever talking to police under any circumstances?
A: Yes.

Suppose police ask them about something for the public good, in no way intended or able to incriminate them, and they spout the "Am I being detained/talk to my lawyer" line. Might a reasonable person class that as obstructionist behavior, fueled by anti-authority views, maybe rationalized as exercise of rights? I say yes, and I'll bet reasonable people agree. Let's experiment:

Me: Excuse me, Mr. WC....I'm looking for a missing child. She's not dressed for the weather and needs her insulin.

You (remember, you aren't guilty of anything): I have nothing to say about that. Contact my attorney if you want any information. Am I being detained?

Do you really see that as a plucky Everyman hero, engaged in the noble exercise of his rights? Or do you see a jerk?
Yes, I did mistake your use of the word "obstruction". When speaking in a non-legalese sense, I will agree that silence could be obstruction.
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Old 03-09-2011, 17:31   #118
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Let's experiment:

Me: Excuse me, Mr. WC....I'm looking for a missing child. She's not dressed for the weather and needs her insulin.

You (remember, you aren't guilty of anything): I have nothing to say about that. Contact my attorney if you want any information. Am I being detained?

Do you really see that as a plucky Everyman hero, engaged in the noble exercise of his rights? Or do you see a jerk?

I see a strawman post not even grounded in reality.
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Old 03-09-2011, 17:33   #119
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Well,

I can sum this thread up very easily. Anyone who attempts to follow it is more likely to get a DUI than someone who doesn't. This thread only makes sense if you drink a lot of alcohol and will drive a person to drink who attempts to understand it. Therefore, since a drunk person is more likely to get a DUI than a sober person, this thread can cause a person to be more likely to get a DUI.

I am off to get a beer....

-Dana

Well, I only drink water, but I almost got double vision myself.


I can sum up my posts in the three words: Checkpoints don't work.
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Old 03-09-2011, 18:12   #120
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I see a strawman post not even grounded in reality.
Which part do you believe is an argument not made by the type of person I've called "anti-authority"? Do you think that there aren't people with the stance, "I'll never talk to any police officer under any circumstances"? Do you think that there are not people out there who view almost all officers as illegitimate and holding no authority whatsoever?

You can't be that sheltered.
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Old 03-09-2011, 18:39   #121
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Which part do you believe is an argument not made by the type of person I've called "anti-authority"? Do you think that there aren't people with the stance, "I'll never talk to any police officer under any circumstances"? Do you think that there are not people out there who view almost all officers as illegitimate and holding no authority whatsoever?

You can't be that sheltered.

I always thought your posts to pretty sensible and well thought out, but this example is just out there. An officer asks about a little girl and the rebel says, "Am I being detained?" I mean, dude, come on.
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Old 03-09-2011, 18:54   #122
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Intellectually Dishonest.
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Old 03-09-2011, 19:41   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Which part do you believe is an argument not made by the type of person I've called "anti-authority"? Do you think that there aren't people with the stance, "I'll never talk to any police officer under any circumstances"? Do you think that there are not people out there who view almost all officers as illegitimate and holding no authority whatsoever?

You can't be that sheltered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
I always thought your posts to pretty sensible and well thought out, but this example is just out there. An officer asks about a little girl and the rebel says, "Am I being detained?" I mean, dude, come on.
Now there you go again, dismissing questions put to you.
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Which part do you believe is an argument not made by the type of person I've called "anti-authority"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
And the answer is:______________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Do you think that there aren't people with the stance, "I'll never talk to any police officer under any circumstances"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
And the answer is:______________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Do you think that there are not people out there who view almost all officers as illegitimate and holding no authority whatsoever?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
And the answer is:________________________________________
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Old 03-10-2011, 20:17   #124
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I've been off-line for a while and see that this thread is up to five-plus pages. So, I'll be straggling a bit...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Who filed the complaint that caused the arrest? The school did. Are the police to ignore the complaint?
I think you missed the irony.

The school teachers, operating under "Zero-Tolerance" policies (well-discussed on this web site and others), call the police for a stick figure drawing.

The police, normally having wide latitude (discretion, I think you'd call it), decide to parrot the school's Zero-Tolerance policy and arrest the student for said stick figure drawing.

So there you have it.
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Old 03-10-2011, 20:40   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Q: Are there people who advocate or practice not ever talking to police under any circumstances?
A: Yes.
Yes, these advocates are called *Attorneys*. Maybe they know something that you're not telling us?

Quote:
Suppose police ask them about something for the public good, in no way intended or able to incriminate them, and they spout the "Am I being detained/talk to my lawyer" line.
Do you remember all of the talk on Rush, Hannity, and O'Reilly about "Perjury Traps?" See also, "Scooter Libby." That's when someone says something from memory that turns out to not be completely true. That person is later prosecuted.

Quote:
Might a reasonable person class that as obstructionist behavior, fueled by anti-authority views,
No one has told us what "anti-authority" means and now you're using it as a definition within this thread. Cart before horse.

Quote:
Do you really see that as a plucky Everyman hero, engaged in the noble exercise of his rights? Or do you see a jerk?
Perhaps I see a lawyer. Let's say he truthfully says, "No, I haven't seen her." Then, a few days later, a security camera shows the man walking on the way to the donut shop as he absent-mindedly passes the girl.

I suppose a "rational person" might very well think that strange... strange, because it is strange. It's not very likely to happen, now, is it?

A more real scenario is this...

Quote:
Cop: "Mind if I search your vehicle?"

American Citizen: "You'll need a warrant first."
Completely normal. What is *not* normal (although, perhaps common on CopTalk) is to accuse the Citizen of being "anti-authority." To label with that as-yet-to-be-defined term, is utterly funkadelically STOOPID.

Now, compare that with a similar seen in Bolivia:

Quote:
Federale: "Get the ***** out of your car, ****** bag!!"

Bolivian peasant: "Si', Senor."
See the difference?
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