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Old 03-09-2011, 07:41   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
...The fact is that policing is an industrious and proactive endeavor. You simply can’t wait in one spot hoping for criminals to approach you....
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Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
YAWN;

NCL you are right. I agree with everything you say. Hell, I wish you were in charge of law enforcement all across the USA. Every citizen in the country would be assured of the sanctity of their constitutional rights. Every perp would be behind bars. They would name town squares after you. Statues would be erected in your honor.

And I would raise as many pigeons as I could in the vicinity of those statues.
Sean, when have you read the part in bold posted by a non-LEO? Isn't that good for a small attaboy? He's a "Believer".
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:03   #82
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I'll give him triple bonus points for that part of his posting.


However, the VAST majority of his argument is that the police today actively conspire to violate the constitutional rights of our citizens. He sits on the sidelines throwing zingers at law enforcement and questioning the motivation of actions taken and policies that are in place.

He culls video snippets of isolated incidents and articles that detail specific conflicts and uses these to paint all law enforcement with the same brush. If you read the thread carefully he has an unswerving ability to dodge facts and questions which would put the superiority of his arguments at risk.

There is no open dialogue with him, but rather an ongoing diatribe about the abuses of law enforcement. If one were to read enough of his postings you would believe the LEO's of this country were the SS sending Jews to concentration camps.

Bring on the pigeons............
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:39   #83
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I'll give him triple bonus points for that part of his posting.

...he has an unswerving ability to dodge facts and questions which would put the superiority of his arguments at risk.
Why, yes, I have noticed that fact. That is why I try and ask for clarification and "Yes" or "No" answers to other questions.

We'll see how that works...
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:53   #84
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More toward the original question:

"Anti-authority" or like behavior can be legal or illegal. The law (through a jury of your peers or the Supreme Court) can justify the moral basis of your actions and you can indeed invoke change - such as Rosa Parks. I'm sure there were plenty of LEO that thought Rosa was "anti-authority", but she stood on the courage of her convictions. Most, and I imagine the great majority that LEO are forced to deal with each day, do not and would most likely fail the test if they tried.

Anti-authority is not by definition a bad thing. But it does put the onus on the objector to successfully prove the moral basis of their case - which might involve quite a bit of personal sacrifice to accomplish. That's the difference between courage and somebody just blowing steam.

IMO, of course.
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:09   #85
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My answers in blue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post

Really, this is a simple question answerable with either "Yes" or "No".

Let me ask it another, more specific way.

In doing your research on the effectiveness of sobriety checkpoints, checkpoints set up at times and places that law enforcement believed would give them a higher probability of encountering someone driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs, regardless of the degree of success in achieving the goal of citing or arresting someone for driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs,

You have already suggested that I am involved in “phantom engineering,” so I will ask you the question. What is your benchmark of success? Is success insignificant only because the department made an effort?

did you record the number of people cited or apprehended at those sobriety checkpoints for the commission of other crimes of lesser or greater severity than driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs? Yes, I have recorded these numbers. Would you like to see some numbers?

Now, notwithstanding your first three paragraphs,…
You did not answer my question. Are you referring to sobriety checkpoints or other types of checkpoints?

the question does not ask for any evidence, facts, opinions, or personal beliefs on the effectiveness of DUI checkpoints or any other checkpoints, nor does it require discussion of the illegality of non-DUI checkpoints.
You have expressed a lot of personal beliefs and opinions, but you have not provided any evidence or facts for your claims in this entire thread.

It is simply, "Did you record the number of people cited or apprehended/arrested for crimes other than driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs?"
The short answer, again, is yes. And?



You have creatively set yourself up as teacher and pedant, but you have not answered any of my questions in this entire thread. You make many claims, but have not provided any evidence. I provide evidence, but you decline to address the evidence. You, instead, move to another subject and continue asking more questions.

I will ask you the same question. Have you recorded (in your department) numbers regarding non-DUI arrests and citations? How do your roving patrol statistics compare with your checkpoint statistics? You stated you believe DUI checkpoints have different results depending on time and place.” Do you have any evidence for this? If so, please provide.
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:15   #86
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If you read the thread carefully he has an unswerving ability to dodge facts and questions which would put the superiority of his arguments at risk.

I am the only one here providing any evidence to back my claims. No one else, including you, has provided any facts, statistics, or evidence to back what is claimed.

What facts have I dodged? What facts have been presented to me? Please provide your own facts. Please provide any facts. Please be specific.
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:49   #87
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"Did you discover any data from checkpoints where persons were found to be operating a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol or drugs?"

I answered that question throughout this thread. You would know the answer is yes if you bothered to read anything instead of marking through things.

So here, again, is an example supporting the answer of yes.

I have answered your question, now please answer mine. My question for you is why would you continue to use checkpoints if the evidence shows that roving and saturation patrols always work better than checkpoints? If you disagree with the premise in that question, please show your evidence where checkpoints work better than roving/saturation patrols.


“If you look at statistics, statistics will probably tell you a saturation patrol is more successful…” said Lt. David Kloos, barrack commander for the Maryland State Police Hagerstown barrack. A typical checkpoint uses about 10 troopers for five hours and costs about $2,000, he said. During the last State Police checkpoint in Hagerstown, held Oct. 31, troopers stopped 880 cars and made three DUI arrests, Kloos said. Saturation patrols watching alternate routes around the checkpoint made one additional DUI arrest, he said. A saturation patrol without a checkpoint requires only three or four troopers and costs a fraction of what a checkpoint costs. The troopers work four hours of overtime, usually from 11 p.m. until 3 a.m., and each aims to make three to four stops per hour, Kloos said. (Source: Hagerstown Herald Mail December 28 2008)
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:52   #88
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Really, this is a simple question answerable with either "Yes" or "No".

Let me ask it another, more specific way.

In doing your research on the effectiveness of sobriety checkpoints, checkpoints set up at times and places that law enforcement believed would give them a higher probability of encountering someone driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs, regardless of the degree of success in achieving the goal of citing or arresting someone for driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs, did you record the number of people cited or apprehended at those sobriety checkpoints for the commission of other crimes of lesser or greater severity than driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
You have already suggested that I am involved in “phantom engineering,” so I will ask you the question. What is your benchmark of success? Is success insignificant only because the department made an effort?
I have no "benchmark" for success.
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
It is simply, "Did you record the number of people cited or apprehended/arrested for crimes other than driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
Yes, I have recorded these numbers. Would you like to see some numbers?
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Now, notwithstanding your first three paragraphs,
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
You did not answer my question. Are you referring to sobriety checkpoints or other types of checkpoints?
What is this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
In doing your research on the effectiveness of sobriety checkpoints...at those sobriety checkpoints...
I mean, you quoted it...What is ambiguous about that?
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
...the question does not ask for any evidence, facts, opinions, or personal beliefs on the effectiveness of DUI checkpoints or any other checkpoints, nor does it require discussion of the illegality of non-DUI checkpoints.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
You have expressed a lot of personal beliefs and opinions, but you have not provided any evidence or facts for your claims in this entire thread.
Please cite the posts where I "expressed lot of personal beliefs and opinions." Please quote them.
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
The short answer, again, is yes. And?

You have creatively set yourself up as teacher and pedant, but you have not answered any of my questions in this entire thread. You make many claims, but have not provided any evidence.
What claims have I made?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
I provide evidence, but you decline to address the evidence. You, instead, move to another subject and continue asking more questions.
That statement is more applicable to your responses, not mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
I will ask you the same question. Have you recorded (in your department) numbers regarding non-DUI arrests and citations?
I am not in LE. I am not employed by any department.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
How do your roving patrol statistics compare with your checkpoint statistics? You stated you “believe DUI checkpoints have different results depending on time and place.” Do you have any evidence for this? If so, please provide.
Again, I'm not in LE.

I've asked you to quote where I have made the statements you allege I've made. How about doing that.
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:59   #89
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Quote:
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Please cite the posts where I "expressed lot of personal beliefs and opinions." Please quote them.

Here is one. You stated in post #57 that you “...believe DUI checkpoints have different results depending on time and place." What is your evidence for this claim?
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:17   #90
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
I answered that question throughout this thread. You would know the answer is yes if you bothered to read anything instead of marking through things.

So here, again, is an example supporting the answer of yes.

I have answered your question, now please answer mine. My question for you is why would you continue to use checkpoints if the evidence shows that roving and saturation patrols always work better than checkpoints? If you disagree with the premise in that question, please show your evidence where checkpoints work better than roving/saturation patrols.
I do not use checkpoints. Neither do I use saturation patrols. I am not in law enforcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
“If you look at statistics, statistics will probably tell you a saturation patrol is more successful…” said Lt. David Kloos, barrack commander for the Maryland State Police Hagerstown barrack. A typical checkpoint uses about 10 troopers for five hours and costs about $2,000, he said. During the last State Police checkpoint in Hagerstown, held Oct. 31, troopers stopped 880 cars and made three DUI arrests, Kloos said. Saturation patrols watching alternate routes around the checkpoint made one additional DUI arrest, he said. A saturation patrol without a checkpoint requires only three or four troopers and costs a fraction of what a checkpoint costs. The troopers work four hours of overtime, usually from 11 p.m. until 3 a.m., and each aims to make three to four stops per hour, Kloos said. (Source: Hagerstown Herald Mail December 28 2008)
Do you have other 'evidence' of arrests made for DUI during checkpoint operations, or just that one? How many checkpoints resulted in the arrest of persons for DUI?

Has Maryland stopped using checkpoints?
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:22   #91
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I've asked you to quote where I have made the statements you allege I've made.

Hey Russ, here's some good videos for you:

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Old 03-09-2011, 11:26   #92
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I do not use checkpoints. Neither do I use saturation patrols. I am not in law enforcement.

You said in post # 57 that you “...believe DUI checkpoints have different results depending on time and place."

If you are not in law enforcement, then what is the basis of this claim? Where is your supporting evidence?
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:31   #93
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Here is one. You stated in post #57 that you “...believe DUI checkpoints have different results depending on time and place." What is your evidence for this claim?
Local media reports and personal conversations with cops over the years indicate that some places and times have been less successful than others. Since my interest was less than yours, I did not record those reports or conversations.

I also spoke with the officer who was awarded a citation for his DUI arrest record one year resulting from his patrol activity. He confirmed that it's all about being in the right place at the right time within his patrol area.

So, yes, I believe if you're not set up in an appropriate position at an appropriate time, results will be poor. If you're in the proper place at the appropriate time, the results will be better.

That might also come under the classification of using instincts and common sense to recognize the difference.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:32   #94
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Here is one. You stated in post #57 that you “...believe DUI checkpoints have different results depending on time and place." What is your evidence for this claim?
Do I really need to run a checkpoint in a school zone on Wednesday morning to show that I get different results from one near the bars at 0100 Saturday?

If the number of drunks on the road varies by day and time--and it does--then checkpoint results, which sample the cars on the road, have to vary as well. C'mon.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:32   #95
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Do you have other 'evidence'...
Do you have any evidence of anything? It seems I'm the one posting all the research. I have not seen anything from you.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:33   #96
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Guess you are pointing out I did not make the comments as alleged by you.

Thank you.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:41   #97
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Do I really need to run a checkpoint in a school zone on Wednesday morning to show that I get different results from one near the bars at 0100 Saturday?

If the number of drunks on the road varies by day and time--and it does--then checkpoint results, which sample the cars on the road, have to vary as well. C'mon.

And yet, surprisingly, places like school zones are where checkpoints are run. And yes, I can document that, too.

I have also observed such checkpoints. My neighbor encountered one on our farm road. Yep, that's right, a farm road. I also once noticed an officer doing impromptu checkpoints when I lived in Iredell County. He was getting out of his car and holding up his hand to stop cars. His blue light was not flashing, as required by law. I walked up to question him, but he quickly made himself scarce. Guess he got tired of dealing with Amish farmers.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:44   #98
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Do I really need to run a checkpoint in a school zone on Wednesday morning to show that I get different results from one near the bars at 0100 Saturday?
You don't get different results. The failure rate is the same. And yes, I can document that, too.

If you have something to the contrary, then please post it.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:44   #99
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Do you have any evidence of anything? It seems I'm the one posting all the research. I have not seen anything from you.
Not everyone is as rabid about the checkpoint issue as you. I do not believe anyone else on GT has accumulated the data you have. I have not. I stated above the sources of my information.
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Local media reports and personal conversations with cops over the years indicate that some places and times have been less successful than others. Since my interest was less than yours, I did not record those reports or conversations.

I also spoke with the officer who was awarded a citation for his DUI arrest record one year resulting from his patrol activity. He confirmed that it's all about being in the right place at the right time within his patrol area.

So, yes, I believe if you're not set up in an appropriate position at an appropriate time, results will be poor. If you're in the proper place at the appropriate time, the results will be better.

That might also come under the classification of using instincts and common sense to recognize the difference.
I would like to see the data in your collection where there were arrests for DUI to include whether they were just first time offenders, repeat offenders, habitual offenders, offenders previously involved in accidents resulting in injury or death, offenders on probation for previous DUI convictions, and offenders driving on licenses suspended for previous DUI arrests and convictions.

You are eager to provide 'evidence' of ineffective checkpoints. Do you have examples where any of the above individuals were caught in a checkpoint?
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:47   #100
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And yet, surprisingly, places like school zones are where checkpoints are run. And yes, I can document that, too.

I have also observed such checkpoints. My neighbor encountered one on our farm road. Yep, that's right, a farm road. I also once noticed an officer doing impromptu checkpoints when I lived in Iredell County. He was getting out of his car and holding up his hand to stop cars. His blue light was not flashing, as required by law. I walked up to question him, but he quickly made himself scarce. Guess he got tired of dealing with Amish farmers.
Did you contact his agency and ask why he was there?
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