[PghJim]

I just discovered something interesting. I had a few boxes left of Corbon 150gr 10mm ammo from when I first got my G29 and had not yet found DT. I just ordered DT 40 S&W 150gr Nosler rounds. Since the bullet is the same for both rounds, I thought I would chronograph them out of a 4.5" G29 and a 4.5" G23 (I have extended barrels). Both of them clocked at just over 1,300fps and when I checked the websites that is what they are advertised to do. The Corbon felt a little anemic out of the G29 compared to what I am used to. The DT 40 felt pretty stiff out of the G23, but still not as strong as a full DT 10mm out of the G29.

I am starting to like DT more and more. So you can get what Corbon calls 10mm performance out of your 40 S&W.

[Glolt20-91]

Are the older Corbon 150s Sierras or Noslers?

When using bullets designed for .40 velocities; it doesn't make sense to load them to velocities where they'd blow-up on impact.

Bob

[firemedic1343]

Originally Posted by PghJim

So you can get what Corbon calls 10mm performance out of your 40 S&W.

I'd guess you're shooting 40 S&W bullets out of both. That's why I'd never get a 40, you can always get underwhelming rounds to mimic the 40's performance.

Order a box of 10mm stuff from DT, for an apples to apples comparison.

[PghJim]

Originally Posted by Glolt20-91

Are the older Corbon 150s Sierras or Noslers?

When using bullets designed for .40 velocities; it doesn't make sense to load them to velocities where they'd blow-up on impact.

Bob

The bullets look the same, so I assume the Corbon's are Noslers, but I could be wrong. 150gr at 1,400fps is probably on the edge of too fast from DT (10mm). Although they fragment on bare jugs, a good portion of it still penetrates so I do not know if the fragmentation is so bad. If you look at the exit hole on the first jug, there is about 1.5" inch diameter of fragments that exit the first jug, besides the main portion of the bullet. Assuming these could do some damage, I am not sure the fragmentation of this DT round would not be desired.

[PghJim]

Originally Posted by firemedic1343

I'd guess you're shooting 40 S&W bullets out of both. That's why I'd never get a 40, you can always get underwhelming rounds to mimic the 40's performance.

Order a box of 10mm stuff from DT, for an apples to apples comparison.

I have a lot of DT stuff. I just thought it was interesting that the 10mm from Corbon is as fast as the 40 from DT. I would not consider the Corbon load to be a full 10mm load.

[agtman]

Originally Posted by PghJim

I have a lot of DT stuff. I just thought it was interesting that the 10mm from Corbon is as fast as the 40 from DT. I would not consider the Corbon load to be a full 10mm load.

You're right. Corbon's 10mm is really a mid-range 10mm load at best, not at the high-performance end of the cartridge's energy curve, as with DT or BB.

For example, DT's .40S&W 200gn XTP ammo is spec-ed to 1050fps, same as Hornady's factory 10mm ammo using the identical 200gn XTP. Sad but true. Way back in the day, when Hornady first released this 200gn 10mm load, it was spec-ed @ 1180fps (depending on barrel length).

What it demonstrates is how easy it is to produced watered-down 10mm loads, as well as how the advances in developing special, hybrid powders can push the limits of factory .40S&W ammo - which, except for DT AFAIK, all top out in bullet-weight w/ the 180gn slugs. It's DT hybid powders that make the 200gn XTP viable as a .40 load.

[Brucev]

"That's why I'd never get a 40, you can always get underwhelming rounds to mimic the 40's performance.

Order a box of 10mm stuff from DT, for an apples to apples comparison"

Ah... the voice of experience. People buy .40 S&W pistols because they meet their needs. Some folks do more than simply play with pistols at the range. Like the .45ACP, the 10mm is useful for some purposes, less so for others. I don't necessarily like it, but for some purposes, it's hard to beat a 9mm. Loading 10mm at something other than top power allows it to be something more than a boutique round of marginal interest. That's one of the reasons the .41 S&W Magnum never achieved the popularity of the .44 S&W Magnum... nothing readily available except full power loads. With the .44 one could use .44 Specials as well as full-power .44 Magnum loads.

As far as more effective loadings in the .40 S&W, excellent. It is a extremely useful round. More power and versatility only makes it better.

[firemedic1343]

Originally Posted by Brucev

Loading 10mm at something other than top power allows it to be something more than a boutique round of marginal interest.

As far as more effective loadings in the .40 S&W, excellent. It is a extremely useful round. More power and versatility only makes it better.

I'm sure the .40 is more than enough for people who only want to use it in the city. Or for BG's. In fact, with new 9mm loadings, .40 S&W seems to be used less and less by LEO's in my area.

I can only afford 1 handgun right now. I need something that will work for everything I need, including 4 legged critters. I would feel more underpowered with a .40 S&W than I would a 10mm. I just need something much more versatile than the .40

When refer to the cartridge with more power and versatility, you are obviously referring to the 10mm right?

[Glolt20-91]

Originally Posted by PghJim

The bullets look the same, so I assume the Corbon's are Noslers, but I could be wrong. 150gr at 1,400fps is probably on the edge of too fast from DT (10mm). Although they fragment on bare jugs, a good portion of it still penetrates so I do not know if the fragmentation is so bad. If you look at the exit hole on the first jug, there is about 1.5" inch diameter of fragments that exit the first jug, besides the main portion of the bullet. Assuming these could do some damage, I am not sure the fragmentation of this DT round would not be desired.

At one time Corbon used Sierra bullets for their self-defense ammo. Sierra does not make a 150gr bullet for 10mm velocities, using Sierra V handloading manual . . . max MV for 150gr JHPs:

.40 S&W - 1250fps
.400 Corbon - 1250fps
10mm - 1250fps

Nosler 6 max MV 150gr JHPs

.40 S&W - 1170fps
10mm - 1358fps

The problem with fragmentation is that the bullet can lose its momentum, therefore less penetration in soft tissue. Bullet fragments do not cause much in the way of soft tissue damage. Faster velocities put more pressure on the bullet at impact that can cause wider expansion resulting in less penetration.

Bob

[SDGlock23]

I chronographed 165gr Corbon JHP's out of my G20 and they were going around a whopping 1150fps...that's no better than factory 165gr .40, which is still a good load regardless. Maybe it was my lot, but that's pretty lame for a 10mm.

[PghJim]

Originally Posted by Glolt20-91

At one time Corbon used Sierra bullets for their self-defense ammo. Sierra does not make a 150gr bullet for 10mm velocities, using Sierra V handloading manual . . . max MV for 150gr JHPs:

.40 S&W - 1250fps
.400 Corbon - 1250fps
10mm - 1250fps

Nosler 6 max MV 150gr JHPs

.40 S&W - 1170fps
10mm - 1358fps

The problem with fragmentation is that the bullet can lose its momentum, therefore less penetration in soft tissue. Bullet fragments do not cause much in the way of soft tissue damage. Faster velocities put more pressure on the bullet at impact that can cause wider expansion resulting in less penetration.

Bob

First, it looks like Sierra does not go out on a limb with their 10mm load data. What are your thought on the 125 SJHP 357 Magnum round. It fragments quite a bit and about 60% penetrates about 10". Was (is) the round as effective as it is always protrayed?

[bmoore]

Corbons 10mm is so weak its a disgrace. Order some swampfox 150grn stuff in 10mm and then compare the two. Swampfox's 180grn is moving over 1300fps. Corbon loads their 10mm down to make their 400 corbon look amazing. They run their 165grn 10mm at 1250fps and then run their 400 corbon 165grn at 1300fps. Weirdos. You can run a 165grn 10mm at 1400fps all day long with no safety concern. Thats like if Sig watered down a 357 magnum and then ran up their 357 sig rounds. Weird. People love to water down the 10mm.

[Kegs]

The beauty of 10mm is that you can load it down to wimpy loads equal to the .40 s&w or you can load it up to full power loads for example, the 10 I shot tonight:

200gr. XTP @ 1235 average out of a G29 w/4.45" bbl.

That load was in no way the hottest load I have ran through my gun, in fact it was a toned down reload batch.

The hottest load I have ran through my gun is 135gr. at a 10-shot average of 1778 fps...a book load...and I still have one string to shoot that will likely average over 1800 fps - which is of course very near 1,000 foot pounds of energy AVERAGE = 4.45" barrel.

1,000 ft./lbs. of energy is stout .41 magnum territory with a 6 1/2" barrel!

----------------------------------------------------------

For the record, the hottest I have chronographed 40 s&w (conversion barrel 3.8" long) at is a recorded 200 xtp @ 1038 average.
That barrel has crappy support, so I held off shooting the rest of the strings.

Sometime in the future I will have a conversion barrel with full chamber support in .40 s&w and I expect I will be able to get a "little extra" power from that...TBC.

[Brucev]

I'm sure the .40 is more than enough for people who only want to use it in the city. Or for BG's. In fact, with new 9mm loadings, .40 S&W seems to be used less and less by LEO's in my area.

I can only afford 1 handgun right now. I need something that will work for everything I need, including 4 legged critters. I would feel more underpowered with a .40 S&W than I would a 10mm. I just need something much more versatile than the .40

When refer to the cartridge with more power and versatility, you are obviously referring to the 10mm right?

Very well remember only owning a single handgun... 6" S&W M-28. Lived in the "Sportsman's Paradise," i.e., Louisiana. It was a little much for somethings... a little light for others. But everything it got pointed at dropped and stayed dropped. Your 10mm will be fine. For some uses it will be a little much. For others it will be a little light, depending on where you live and what you hunt. Later, you'll end up with other handguns to suit other more specific needs.

The S&W .40 is a very good round, well suited to a variety of uses. For large game, I'll go to a heavy loaded .44 Special or a standard .44 Magnum. For small game, I enjoy .38 Specials fired from my (surprise) M-28. Exceptionally accurate revolver! From past and current contact with LE, the .40 S&W is just about the standard caliber against which everything else is compared. Cool. Cheers!

[agtman]

Originally Posted by Brucev

"That's why I'd never get a 40, you can always get underwhelming rounds to mimic the 40's performance.

Order a box of 10mm stuff from DT, for an apples to apples comparison"

Ah... the voice of experience. ***

As far as more effective loadings in the .40 S&W, excellent. It is a extremely useful round. More power and versatility only makes it better.

"More power and versatility" is what defines the 10mm AUTO, not the .40S&W, which is its offspring.

The .40 cartridge is a watered-down, less versatile "10mm" that was designed to fit 9mm-sized pistols.

[agtman]

Originally Posted by Brucev

"That's why I'd never get a 40, you can always get underwhelming rounds to mimic the 40's performance.

Order a box of 10mm stuff from DT, for an apples to apples comparison"

Ah... the voice of experience. ***

That's one of the reasons the .41 S&W Magnum never achieved the popularity of the .44 S&W Magnum... nothing readily available except full power loads. With the .44 one could use .44 Specials as well as full-power .44 Magnum loads.
***

Actually, that cartridge-versatility is true of the 10mm AUTO too, except in its case that includes both autoloaders and S&W's 610 wheelgun.

How so?

Well, with the 610, just as with the .44 & .357 magnum wheelies, you can always shoot the less powerful, less versatile little-brother cartridge, e.g., 10mm --> .40 S&W; .44mag --> .44Sp; .357mag -->. 38 Sp.

In 10mm autoloaders, like say, the Glock 20, you can do a 5-second barrel-swap with an aftermarket .40 tube and be up and shooting the .40Swishy-Walker as much as you want. There's also that same barrel-swap capability w/ the 10mm --> .357 Sig and 9x 25 Dillon.

The 10mm's popularity has lasted far longer, with more guns chambered for it, and has increased more in the last 10-12yrs, than the .41Mag ever did.

[firemedic1343]

Originally Posted by agtman

"More power and versatility" is what defines the 10mm AUTO, not the .40S&W, which is its offspring.

The .40 cartridge is a watered-down, less versatile "10mm" that was designed to fit 9mm-sized pistols.

Thanks for responding to BruceV, I couldn't bring myself to continue...

No offence intended BruceV, many people love the .40, it's a fine caliber, but far from the greatness of the 10mm

[Ak.Hiker]

CorBon loads their ammo for specific needs. Their 10mm self defense ammo does not need to run as hot as their hunting loads. They do not run a bullet past its design envelope. They do offer a real good 180 grain Bonded Core hunting load with a bullet designed for hunting. This one is loaded hotter than their SD ammo. Also many years ago CorBon was my only source for full power 200 grain FMJ loads designed for deep penetration. Their Penetrator bullet is tougher than the average run of the mill FMJ. It is built with a hard core and a thick jacket. Now days they load it down a bit from its original 1200 fps however it is still a good load.

[PghJim]

Originally Posted by Ak.Hiker

CorBon loads their ammo for specific needs. Their 10mm self defense ammo does not need to run as hot as their hunting loads. They do not run a bullet past its design envelope. They do offer a real good 180 grain Bonded Core hunting load with a bullet designed for hunting. This one is loaded hotter than their SD ammo. Also many years ago CorBon was my only source for full power 200 grain FMJ loads designed for deep penetration. Their Penetrator bullet is tougher than the average run of the mill FMJ. It is built with a hard core and a thick jacket. Now days they load it down a bit from its original 1200 fps however it is still a good load.

What do you think is a more effective SD load, CorBon's 150gr 40 S&W, or their 150gr 10mm load? If it is the 10mm load, you can now have that performance in a 40 S&W through DT.

[Ak.Hiker]

Originally Posted by PghJim

What do you think is a more effective SD load, CorBon's 150gr 40 S&W, or their 150gr 10mm load? If it is the 10mm load, you can now have that performance in a 40 S&W through DT.

I guess it would depend on the design of the bullet. We could say that the DT 40 S&W load and the CorBon 10mm load would have similar performance if they were using the same bullet. I also would think that the CorBon 40 S&W load would have good performance as well even though it is running a little slower. I like DT ammo as well. I have been testing out their 200 grain 40 S&W loading in my Glock 22 and I really like it. In fact I like it a lot. CorBon and DT both make great ammo. One thing to keep in mind is that CorBon is a member of SAAMI and has to work within their guidelines. That is when I noticed they reduced the velocity on some of their hunting loads. One of my favorite factory 45 Colt loads is their 300 grain loaded with the tough Sierra bullet. If you look on their web page it states that this load is not loaded to SAAMI specs. Most of their ammo is and as far as I know all of their SD ammo is SAAMI spec. So in this respect DT can load hotter. However they do a darn good job of it as I have never had any problems what so ever with DT loads in my Glocks.

[PghJim]

I shot the DT 150 gr Nosler 40 S&W and the DT 165 gr GS through 4 layers on denim into three jugs of water. The 150gr Nosler may be the best 40 load I have seen. It penetrated all three jugs and expanded to almost 0.70" and does not fragment much on bare jugs. It has not yet clogged with cloth in seven tries. The 150gr Nosler is on the right and the 165gr GS (DT) is on the left.

[agtman]

Originally Posted by PghJim

I shot the DT 150 gr Nosler 40 S&W and the DT 165 gr GS through 4 layers on denim into three jugs of water. The 150gr Nosler may be the best 40 load I have seen. It penetrated all three jugs and expanded to almost 0.70" and does not fragment much on bare jugs. It has not yet clogged with cloth in seven tries. The 150gr Nosler is on the right and the 165gr GS (DT) is on the left.

Your mushroomed 165gn GSHP (on the left, above) looks identical to the pic of a DT 10mm 165gn GS (early production, @ 1425fps/744fpe) I fired into wet phone books wrapped in denim for penetration testing.

One pic from the link below:



Link here to range report & pics (for the 165gn GS, scroll down to pics #10 thru #14):

http://www.bren-ten.com/agtman/id6.html

Just FYI, for what it's worth ...

[PghJim]

The jacket of the GS is a larger diameter that the core and it has separated with each shot I took. However, the jacket penetrated the same distance as the core, so I would have to think it would be an effective part of the stopping power.

Cool website. Thanks. Jim

[Ak.Hiker]

It looks like the DT 150 grain 40 S&W is a pretty good load. That Nosler bullet really held together.

[CanyonMan]

Originally Posted by Kegs

The beauty of 10mm is that you can load it down to wimpy loads equal to the .40 s&w or you can load it up to full power loads for example, the 10 I shot tonight:

200gr. XTP @ 1235 average out of a G29 w/4.45" bbl.

That load was in no way the hottest load I have ran through my gun, in fact it was a toned down reload batch.

The hottest load I have ran through my gun is 135gr. at a 10-shot average of 1778 fps...a book load...and I still have one string to shoot that will likely average over 1800 fps - which is of course very near 1,000 foot pounds of energy AVERAGE = 4.45" barrel.

1,000 ft./lbs. of energy is stout .41 magnum territory with a 6 1/2" barrel!

----------------------------------------------------------

For the record, the hottest I have chronographed 40 s&w (conversion barrel 3.8" long) at is a recorded 200 xtp @ 1038 average.
That barrel has crappy support, so I held off shooting the rest of the strings.

Sometime in the future I will have a conversion barrel with full chamber support in .40 s&w and I expect I will be able to get a "little extra" power
from that...TBC.

The hottest load I have ran through my gun is 135gr. at a 10-shot average of 1778 fps...a book load...and I still have one string to shoot that will likely average over 1800 fps - which is of course very near 1,000 foot pounds of energy AVERAGE = 4.45" barrel.

In your qoute above here, you said this is a 'book load." (14.2grs 800X is what I noticed you used to get this vel over on the 10mm reloading forum).

You showed a "link," (over on the 10mm reloading forum) with a partial piece of paper that says IMR at the top. This may be waaaaay old or something, or a mis-print. I don't know.

Point is. I have researched every book I can find and cannot find this loading. I talked with my buddy Mike at Hodgdon Powder co the other day, as I researched some data for some testing of my own I am about to do on some new HC bullets, and I mentioned to him this load of yours I saw over on the 10mm reloading forum, and he like to fell out of his chair when he heard this, and had no clue as to where this info came from either.... I guess we are behind the herd.

Would you please share "what book" you got this from ?


Thanks !





CM