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Old 03-27-2011, 13:44   #26
Reyn
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I like 12s. The most you work is 3 days in a row and get every other weekend off. Plus the short week you can take two days off and be off a week.

With 8s we had to work 6 on 2 off and didnt get a weekend but once every 6 weeks.
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Old 03-27-2011, 13:50   #27
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Our patrol shifts are 10 hours, which I think are perfect. Every "weekend" is three days off, although if you work a late evening or night shift that 1st day off can be pretty rough.

A buddy of mine, who I served in the Corps with, works 12's. They alternate working 3 on-4 off, and 4 on-3 off. I see the benefit as having plenty of time away from work, but the down side, IMHO, is that you are getting set up for some major fatigue on the days you are working.

Even working 4/10's there are times when you get late calls 2 or 3 days in a row. More than once I remember the bottom falling out, and working 14-18 hour days in a row. I was "lucky" enough to be an AI, back when we also diagramed homicide and OIS scenes, and getting my butt handed to me because I was lucky to get 4 hours of sleep before I had to be back to work. I've worked 20 hour days more than once or twice.

I could see 12 hour shifts increasing the frequency and possibility of this happening, and being completely useless due to exhaustion. I see that as a safety issue. Even driving can be dangerous at that point.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong....
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Old 03-27-2011, 14:01   #28
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I think 10-hour days are about the best of the best.
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Old 03-27-2011, 14:07   #29
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We work 12's on the Pittman and I love the schedule but our rotation sucks. We rotate days to nights every set of days. I don't care to work days and I don't care to work night but I hate working both in the same week every week. Your body never gets adjusted and doesn't know whether your supposed to be asleep or awake. Hopefully it will get changed some day. Personally I would prefer rotating every two weeks.
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Old 03-27-2011, 14:09   #30
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I've been on this system for about 6 years now and we like the 12s. The most you work is 3 days in a row and get every other weekend off. We rotated only once every year prior to this year and now we have started bidding for nights or days again because the senior officers were complaining.

The short week you can take two days off and be off a week. We have one day out of the two week roll that we only work 8 hrs to maintain an 80 hr pay period. I take mine every Sunday of the week end shift week. You can also roll your four to the short two day week and take the two days off and only burn 20 hours. The good part part of this is we usually have a full crew on the week end we work.

The up side to this is the Jr officers have a three day week end every other week not like my younger days when the only way you gat a week end off was to lay out and take the chewing for doing so. We never had supervisors work week ends prior to the 12's, now the whole crew works together and this I do believe is a better thing for the department.

This job is hard enough on a family without a schedule where Daddy works every week end and maybe nights too. At least every other week end offsets nights a little, but both are about un-bearable on a young officer; I still remember..............
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Old 03-27-2011, 14:21   #31
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I think 10-hour days are about the best of the best.
I agree, regular days off and the crisis created when you have staffing issues, I think the tens are better.
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Old 03-27-2011, 17:53   #32
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I think 10-hour days are about the best of the best.
I wish we had them. Our dets, traffic and K-9 have them. But management says that the 12s are easier to schedule for.
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Old 03-27-2011, 18:03   #33
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We went to twelves here a few years back.

Our schedule is two on, two off, three on (third day is a short day), two off, two on, three off.

Every other weekend off; a repeating two-week schedule.

We have four shifts staggered throughout the twenty-four hour block.

The upside is that the most you work is three days in a row.

The downside is that a twelve-hour shift really means a twelve-hour minimum. I'm stuck late almost every day that I work. It's really a thirteen- or fourteen-hour day.

The downside is that any shift except day shift is rough on family life. If you have court during the day, working that night is dangerous as far as fatigue goes. Fatigue on its own is an issue without even having court. A robbery-in-progress after you've been working eleven hours is something to think about.

Another upside is that, on one of the two weeks, you can get a week off by burning twenty-four hours of time.

So really, depending on what schedule you pick within the eight-, ten-, or twelve-hour system, it's whether you get burned out more quickly by (a) more days of work in a row, or (b) more hours in a single day.

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Old 03-27-2011, 18:39   #34
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So really, depending on what schedule you pick within the eight-, ten-, or twelve-hour system, it's whether you get burned out more quickly by (a) more days of work in a row, or (b) more hours in a single day.

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Old 03-27-2011, 20:59   #35
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My brother works 7 straight days in a row, 12 hour shifts (days) and then has 7 straight days off in a row. Then he comes back and works 7 straight days in a row, 12 hour night shifts, and then has 7 straight days off again.
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Old 03-27-2011, 21:47   #36
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We mainly work 11 and 12 hour shifts and I prefer them over my previous job which had 8 hour shifts. I like the extra days off and the fact I make the commute to work fewer times. We work 4 on 4 off.


We have a permanent early day shift (Alpha shift) that works 0430-1545 (11 1/4 hours). The rest of us rotate through the remaining shifts. The first week we'll work bravo, followed by charlie, next week delta, next week echo, and then back to bravo. Start of shift is in our briefing room for a 15 minutes.

Bravo 0645-1745 (11 hours)
Charlie 1245-0045 (11 hours)
Delta 1545-0345 (12 hours)
Echo 1845-0545 (11 hours)

We end up owing 32 hours a year which we make up with 4 training days (8 hour shifts) spread throughout the year. There is talk of making one more shift a 12 hour as well and then we wouldn't have to come in for days off to do training... it would be done on regular working days (likely during delta shifts because charlie and echo can cover the call load). The nice thing about having our overlapping shifts is it's pretty rare to get a late call. Even if you end up getting one, usually a later shift car will swing by and offer to take over the call.

Our call signs are based on district, shift, and car number. Last week I was 2C11.
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Old 03-27-2011, 22:03   #37
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My brother works 7 straight days in a row, 12 hour shifts (days) and then has 7 straight days off in a row. Then he comes back and works 7 straight days in a row, 12 hour night shifts, and then has 7 straight days off again.
Holy ****! Is that a cop shop or something else?

If I had that I would tell my wife to move wherever she would be happiest living alone and then I would rent a room or shack in town during my week on. Then I would drive or fly to wherever she lived. One of our guys lives in UT and commutes weekly to work. Before that we had a guy do it to NV.
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Old 03-27-2011, 22:34   #38
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I've never worked a placed that worked 12's, but to me, they make a lot of sense. The extra days off are especially nice. 8's are too short, IMO. If its busy or you really get into anything you're screwed and stuck over.

I used to work at a place that had 8 hour shifts and a "step down" schedule. Without a doubt, its the most insanely idiotic system ever. After your two days off you return to work on a mid-0800. Next comes a 2000 to 0400, then 1600-2400 x2 (usually), and finally a 0800 to 1600 before your days off again. Now, lets add in the fact that your 8 hour shift was never 8 hours, court and the seemingly constant extra details. It made for a miserable, exhausted existance. Personally, I always though the amount of fatigue this schedule caused was dangerous. All the disadvantages of both 8 and 12 hour shifts with the benefits of neither.
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Old 03-28-2011, 02:40   #39
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I work 8's....not by choice. However the way my rotation works, I have every other 4 day week end, which is very nice.

10 on 4 off
E/O Sat., Sun., Mon., and Tue., off.
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Old 03-28-2011, 07:46   #40
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12's look great on paper, but as many have indicated it can be exhausting, especially if working nights.

Commercial drivers can only drive for 11, and we must drive priority, deploy weapons, and make decisions necessitating a clear head. I think this would be much less exhausting if we could hang out at the station until called.
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Old 03-28-2011, 08:19   #41
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Hi, We are currently on a 8 Hr shift, I Like the 8 Hour shift for a lot of reasons, I know alot of people on 12's Some Like them Some Don't, I Don' Like them just wondering what you guys thought since some of the guys in our Dept want to go to them and we will be voting soon.

We are a busy Dept in the Summer and Slow in the Winter, I just know that time will either drag or you will be over loaded with work plus 12 on the desk will be rough.
Ive done both I would not even(unless it was one of those go to 12's or lose your job type of deals) go back to 12's. sure you may get a extra day off but the time after your shift is done is shot..for someone like me that tried to get/stay involved with my kids sports by helping to coach..id have to completely stop that cause the 12 hour shift would put me still at work when id normally be home eating supper and or then coaching/helping out with games or practices. The extra day off was "ok" but didnt really do anything for me I actually like my time after work(in my case if im working day shift 4pm-9pm) to be mine not taken up by work then being to tired to do anything but go to sleep to get ready for more work.

IMO in LE if your on a 12 hour shift(and we all know its more than 12 hrs) the only thing you have time to do on your work days is work and sleep then get back up and go to work and then sleep..the stuff people do inbetween..like play with kids....help with baseball/football/hockey practices/coaching, take family out to dinner...just anything you do after work pretty much is non existent on 12's...now if your a young non married guy and only really worried about yourself then they are GREAT...if your married and have a family you like to do things with it sucks.

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Old 03-28-2011, 08:29   #42
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12's look great on paper, but as many have indicated it can be exhausting, especially if working nights.

Commercial drivers can only drive for 11, and we must drive priority, deploy weapons, and make decisions necessitating a clear head. I think this would be much less exhausting if we could hang out at the station until called.
yup when we did 12's it was either(it switched a few times when people started complaining then stopped when about 7 people in a week finally just quit) 12 midnight-12noon or vice versa OR 6am-6pm or vice versa...if you really tried to get 7-8 hours sleep that left a whopping 1-2 hours before or after shift for "your time" and it was always bad times lol...wife is at work and kid in school at 1PM when you get home and you sleep till 10 PM when wife is going back to bed and kid has been in bed a hour or more...whoo hoo! the times you were off just always seemed to suck and be times only YOU could get something done...everyone else was either sleeping,at work or school....
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Old 03-28-2011, 08:52   #43
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Or facility works 12's, four on four off. Days stays on day and night stay on nights. Seems to work pretty good going from the schedule they had, before I started working there.
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Old 03-28-2011, 09:06   #44
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12's look great on paper, but as many have indicated it can be exhausting, especially if working nights.

Commercial drivers can only drive for 11, and we must drive priority, deploy weapons, and make decisions necessitating a clear head. I think this would be much less exhausting if we could hang out at the station until called.
This is a universal problem, IMO. In a job where we must be sharp at all times, many of us are zombies. (especially the night shift guys) Running around on 4 or 5 hours of sleep can be done for a while, but in the long term, its not safe, or healthy. (physically or mentally)



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IMO in LE if your on a 12 hour shift(and we all know its more than 12 hrs) the only thing you have time to do on your work days is work and sleep then get back up and go to work and then sleep..the stuff people do inbetween..like play with kids....help with baseball/football/hockey practices/coaching, take family out to dinner...just anything you do after work pretty much is non existent on 12's...now if your a young non married guy and only really worried about yourself then they are GREAT...if your married and have a family you like to do things with it sucks.

How is court scheduled in your area? One of my biggest complaints with 8's as a young officer is that more likely than not I'm going to have to come in for court on my days off. For me, that meant a 60 mile round trip, + the time spent in the courthouse. By the time it was done, my day off was shot in the ass. (and my department didn't pay a dime for any of it) Forget about a Fri., Sat., or Sun. off. Only the admin and people that have been around forever get to work banker's hours.

I agree about not having time for anything but sleep and work on 12's. With our stepdown schedule it was like that even on 8's, because you rarely had more than 12 hours between shifts. (and sometimes only 8) After my experiences the appeal of 12's is that I can at least plan on having a true weekend every so often.
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:15   #45
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I'm going to have to come in for court on my days off. For me, that meant a 60 mile round trip, + the time spent in the courthouse. By the time it was done, my day off was shot in the ass. (and my department didn't pay a dime for any of it)
(emphasis added) Wow. Not getting paid for duty-related court time? Sounds like a labor management issue there! Hopefully resolved by now?
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Old 03-28-2011, 13:03   #46
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(emphasis added) Wow. Not getting paid for duty-related court time? Sounds like a labor management issue there! Hopefully resolved by now?
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Old 03-28-2011, 15:30   #47
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We have both the 12 hour and 10 hour shifts with a certain amount of overlap. The 12 hour shifts are our main watches, with the 10 hour shifts being a mid-watch. The 12 hour shifts are more popular. Unlike many Departments we have no set pattern to days off. Once a month, we submit a "days off request" and we bid for the days off we want. You can pretty much arrange the days off you want within reason. I have seen guys work a long stretch, then take off a long stretch. It all depends on what the officers have going on that month. If you want to take a mini-vacation, you might work a 7 or 8 day stretch then ask for 7 or 8 days off in a row.

Each month, every watch commander will gather up all the days off requests then balance the watch. When there are conflicts, the days off are granted based on seniority and also certain needs or hardships. For example, if you are going out of state to see a sick relative, you may be granted those days off based upon compassionate needs and might even beat out someone with more seniority. Most officers understand that some day their special need may come up so they go with it. By and large it works. The junior officers understand that their days off are a gamble, but heck, that's what seniority is all about. Their turn will come some day.

As for watch preference, there is no rotation. As long as no one wants to move, no one moves. If you want to move, you have to do at least six months before you can bump someone off their watch and replace them.
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Old 03-28-2011, 16:03   #48
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This is a universal problem, IMO. In a job where we must be sharp at all times, many of us are zombies. (especially the night shift guys) Running around on 4 or 5 hours of sleep can be done for a while, but in the long term, its not safe, or healthy. (physically or mentally)






How is court scheduled in your area? One of my biggest complaints with 8's as a young officer is that more likely than not I'm going to have to come in for court on my days off. For me, that meant a 60 mile round trip, + the time spent in the courthouse. By the time it was done, my day off was shot in the ass. (and my department didn't pay a dime for any of it) Forget about a Fri., Sat., or Sun. off. Only the admin and people that have been around forever get to work banker's hours.

I agree about not having time for anything but sleep and work on 12's. With our stepdown schedule it was like that even on 8's, because you rarely had more than 12 hours between shifts. (and sometimes only 8) After my experiences the appeal of 12's is that I can at least plan on having a true weekend every so often.
They tried to schedule the court stuff on your work days I cant think of a lot of time I was there on my "off" days Only time was if something got rescheduled for something like weather or sickness..i think I can remember a total of 3-5 times I came in in the evening on my "off" time and the most I spent there was about 45 min to a hour. I was small town and id say 85+% of the time people just pleaded out and didnt ask for a 'trial" or witnesses or anything..this was back in 1990-93 era though now im working as a Hack

oh and you would not have had to worry about a 60 mile trip most of a trip you would have had to make is 6 miles...the Chief would NOT hire anyone that was not a resident and lived in the township area . I lived about 1/4 mile from the barracks and about 1.5 miles from the court house . The judges all lived within 2 miles of me for off hour arraignments..so it was a pretty convenient set up. Plus the one judge was a ex-state trooper and he knew what it was like so he was VERY good at making sure you didnt have to come in on your time.

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Old 03-28-2011, 16:39   #49
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I wish we had them. Our dets, traffic and K-9 have them. But management says that the 12s are easier to schedule for.
Of course 12's are easier to schedule. You only need 4 patrol shifts for 24/7 coverage of each area (if you do it the way my buddy's department does it, which IMHO makes the most sense). With 8's 10's you need at least 6 patrol shifts.

With 12's you don't have to factor the overlapping days of multiple shifts into the schedule, like you 8's and 10's (if you do it the way my buddy's department does it, which IMHO makes the most sense).

If 12's work for a department, and their officers like it, that's awesome. I personally prefer 4/10's for my reasons previously stated, but I'm a nobody. I think that if the only reason administrators have their officers work 12's is because it makes scheduling easier for them, that's a raw deal. Especially if it's to the detriment of their officers.
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Old 03-29-2011, 14:39   #50
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Holy ****! Is that a cop shop or something else?

If I had that I would tell my wife to move wherever she would be happiest living alone and then I would rent a room or shack in town during my week on. Then I would drive or fly to wherever she lived. One of our guys lives in UT and commutes weekly to work. Before that we had a guy do it to NV.
He's a pilot for a life-flight helicopter outfit.
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