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Old 03-28-2011, 08:19   #41
CBennett
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Originally Posted by BLACK Z View Post
Hi, We are currently on a 8 Hr shift, I Like the 8 Hour shift for a lot of reasons, I know alot of people on 12's Some Like them Some Don't, I Don' Like them just wondering what you guys thought since some of the guys in our Dept want to go to them and we will be voting soon.

We are a busy Dept in the Summer and Slow in the Winter, I just know that time will either drag or you will be over loaded with work plus 12 on the desk will be rough.
Ive done both I would not even(unless it was one of those go to 12's or lose your job type of deals) go back to 12's. sure you may get a extra day off but the time after your shift is done is shot..for someone like me that tried to get/stay involved with my kids sports by helping to coach..id have to completely stop that cause the 12 hour shift would put me still at work when id normally be home eating supper and or then coaching/helping out with games or practices. The extra day off was "ok" but didnt really do anything for me I actually like my time after work(in my case if im working day shift 4pm-9pm) to be mine not taken up by work then being to tired to do anything but go to sleep to get ready for more work.

IMO in LE if your on a 12 hour shift(and we all know its more than 12 hrs) the only thing you have time to do on your work days is work and sleep then get back up and go to work and then sleep..the stuff people do inbetween..like play with kids....help with baseball/football/hockey practices/coaching, take family out to dinner...just anything you do after work pretty much is non existent on 12's...now if your a young non married guy and only really worried about yourself then they are GREAT...if your married and have a family you like to do things with it sucks.

Last edited by CBennett; 03-28-2011 at 08:23..
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Old 03-28-2011, 08:29   #42
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12's look great on paper, but as many have indicated it can be exhausting, especially if working nights.

Commercial drivers can only drive for 11, and we must drive priority, deploy weapons, and make decisions necessitating a clear head. I think this would be much less exhausting if we could hang out at the station until called.
yup when we did 12's it was either(it switched a few times when people started complaining then stopped when about 7 people in a week finally just quit) 12 midnight-12noon or vice versa OR 6am-6pm or vice versa...if you really tried to get 7-8 hours sleep that left a whopping 1-2 hours before or after shift for "your time" and it was always bad times lol...wife is at work and kid in school at 1PM when you get home and you sleep till 10 PM when wife is going back to bed and kid has been in bed a hour or more...whoo hoo! the times you were off just always seemed to suck and be times only YOU could get something done...everyone else was either sleeping,at work or school....
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Old 03-28-2011, 08:52   #43
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Or facility works 12's, four on four off. Days stays on day and night stay on nights. Seems to work pretty good going from the schedule they had, before I started working there.
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Old 03-28-2011, 09:06   #44
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12's look great on paper, but as many have indicated it can be exhausting, especially if working nights.

Commercial drivers can only drive for 11, and we must drive priority, deploy weapons, and make decisions necessitating a clear head. I think this would be much less exhausting if we could hang out at the station until called.
This is a universal problem, IMO. In a job where we must be sharp at all times, many of us are zombies. (especially the night shift guys) Running around on 4 or 5 hours of sleep can be done for a while, but in the long term, its not safe, or healthy. (physically or mentally)



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IMO in LE if your on a 12 hour shift(and we all know its more than 12 hrs) the only thing you have time to do on your work days is work and sleep then get back up and go to work and then sleep..the stuff people do inbetween..like play with kids....help with baseball/football/hockey practices/coaching, take family out to dinner...just anything you do after work pretty much is non existent on 12's...now if your a young non married guy and only really worried about yourself then they are GREAT...if your married and have a family you like to do things with it sucks.

How is court scheduled in your area? One of my biggest complaints with 8's as a young officer is that more likely than not I'm going to have to come in for court on my days off. For me, that meant a 60 mile round trip, + the time spent in the courthouse. By the time it was done, my day off was shot in the ass. (and my department didn't pay a dime for any of it) Forget about a Fri., Sat., or Sun. off. Only the admin and people that have been around forever get to work banker's hours.

I agree about not having time for anything but sleep and work on 12's. With our stepdown schedule it was like that even on 8's, because you rarely had more than 12 hours between shifts. (and sometimes only 8) After my experiences the appeal of 12's is that I can at least plan on having a true weekend every so often.
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:15   #45
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I'm going to have to come in for court on my days off. For me, that meant a 60 mile round trip, + the time spent in the courthouse. By the time it was done, my day off was shot in the ass. (and my department didn't pay a dime for any of it)
(emphasis added) Wow. Not getting paid for duty-related court time? Sounds like a labor management issue there! Hopefully resolved by now?
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Old 03-28-2011, 13:03   #46
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(emphasis added) Wow. Not getting paid for duty-related court time? Sounds like a labor management issue there! Hopefully resolved by now?
Yea, I quit!
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Old 03-28-2011, 15:30   #47
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We have both the 12 hour and 10 hour shifts with a certain amount of overlap. The 12 hour shifts are our main watches, with the 10 hour shifts being a mid-watch. The 12 hour shifts are more popular. Unlike many Departments we have no set pattern to days off. Once a month, we submit a "days off request" and we bid for the days off we want. You can pretty much arrange the days off you want within reason. I have seen guys work a long stretch, then take off a long stretch. It all depends on what the officers have going on that month. If you want to take a mini-vacation, you might work a 7 or 8 day stretch then ask for 7 or 8 days off in a row.

Each month, every watch commander will gather up all the days off requests then balance the watch. When there are conflicts, the days off are granted based on seniority and also certain needs or hardships. For example, if you are going out of state to see a sick relative, you may be granted those days off based upon compassionate needs and might even beat out someone with more seniority. Most officers understand that some day their special need may come up so they go with it. By and large it works. The junior officers understand that their days off are a gamble, but heck, that's what seniority is all about. Their turn will come some day.

As for watch preference, there is no rotation. As long as no one wants to move, no one moves. If you want to move, you have to do at least six months before you can bump someone off their watch and replace them.
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Old 03-28-2011, 16:03   #48
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This is a universal problem, IMO. In a job where we must be sharp at all times, many of us are zombies. (especially the night shift guys) Running around on 4 or 5 hours of sleep can be done for a while, but in the long term, its not safe, or healthy. (physically or mentally)






How is court scheduled in your area? One of my biggest complaints with 8's as a young officer is that more likely than not I'm going to have to come in for court on my days off. For me, that meant a 60 mile round trip, + the time spent in the courthouse. By the time it was done, my day off was shot in the ass. (and my department didn't pay a dime for any of it) Forget about a Fri., Sat., or Sun. off. Only the admin and people that have been around forever get to work banker's hours.

I agree about not having time for anything but sleep and work on 12's. With our stepdown schedule it was like that even on 8's, because you rarely had more than 12 hours between shifts. (and sometimes only 8) After my experiences the appeal of 12's is that I can at least plan on having a true weekend every so often.
They tried to schedule the court stuff on your work days I cant think of a lot of time I was there on my "off" days Only time was if something got rescheduled for something like weather or sickness..i think I can remember a total of 3-5 times I came in in the evening on my "off" time and the most I spent there was about 45 min to a hour. I was small town and id say 85+% of the time people just pleaded out and didnt ask for a 'trial" or witnesses or anything..this was back in 1990-93 era though now im working as a Hack

oh and you would not have had to worry about a 60 mile trip most of a trip you would have had to make is 6 miles...the Chief would NOT hire anyone that was not a resident and lived in the township area . I lived about 1/4 mile from the barracks and about 1.5 miles from the court house . The judges all lived within 2 miles of me for off hour arraignments..so it was a pretty convenient set up. Plus the one judge was a ex-state trooper and he knew what it was like so he was VERY good at making sure you didnt have to come in on your time.

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Old 03-28-2011, 16:39   #49
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I wish we had them. Our dets, traffic and K-9 have them. But management says that the 12s are easier to schedule for.
Of course 12's are easier to schedule. You only need 4 patrol shifts for 24/7 coverage of each area (if you do it the way my buddy's department does it, which IMHO makes the most sense). With 8's 10's you need at least 6 patrol shifts.

With 12's you don't have to factor the overlapping days of multiple shifts into the schedule, like you 8's and 10's (if you do it the way my buddy's department does it, which IMHO makes the most sense).

If 12's work for a department, and their officers like it, that's awesome. I personally prefer 4/10's for my reasons previously stated, but I'm a nobody. I think that if the only reason administrators have their officers work 12's is because it makes scheduling easier for them, that's a raw deal. Especially if it's to the detriment of their officers.
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Old 03-29-2011, 14:39   #50
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Holy ****! Is that a cop shop or something else?

If I had that I would tell my wife to move wherever she would be happiest living alone and then I would rent a room or shack in town during my week on. Then I would drive or fly to wherever she lived. One of our guys lives in UT and commutes weekly to work. Before that we had a guy do it to NV.
He's a pilot for a life-flight helicopter outfit.
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Old 03-29-2011, 18:35   #51
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I love them. If you wisely use your leave time you can take a ton of 7 day stretches off. I always schedule any time off on the "short week" so I only need to use 24 hours to be off 7 days.
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Old 03-30-2011, 06:43   #52
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I love them. If you wisely use your leave time you can take a ton of 7 day stretches off. I always schedule any time off on the "short week" so I only need to use 24 hours to be off 7 days.
This.

My wife loves my 12 hour schedule because of all the time off I have. If mama is happy, then all is well at my house.
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Old 03-30-2011, 10:50   #53
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Holy ****! Is that a cop shop or something else?

If I had that I would tell my wife to move wherever she would be happiest living alone and then I would rent a room or shack in town during my week on. Then I would drive or fly to wherever she lived. One of our guys lives in UT and commutes weekly to work. Before that we had a guy do it to NV.
Is your guy from Utah driving in or flying? I was out your way this Christmas and couldn't see counting on making it through the mountains in the winter.
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Old 03-30-2011, 13:31   #54
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I love them. If you wisely use your leave time you can take a ton of 7 day stretches off. I always schedule any time off on the "short week" so I only need to use 24 hours to be off 7 days.
We're able to do something similar with 4/10's at shift change. One shift I worked you were able to take a "2 for 8" (2 days vacation for 8 days off in a row), and another was "1 for 7" when we rotated our work schedule.

We couldn't do it all the time, but it was available when the schedule allowed.
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Old 03-30-2011, 14:21   #55
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Is your guy from Utah driving in or flying? I was out your way this Christmas and couldn't see counting on making it through the mountains in the winter.
The guy from UT is flying. Very rarely will he drive. He only drives in the late spring to early fall when he needs to do something like move furniture or his wife and kids join him for most of the summer out here. The rest of the year he flys in and out.

The guy who did the NV/CA trip for 6 years before he retired drove a little more often at first but as he got older he only drove when necessary. I think the 5-6 hour drive was too rough and ate up too much time.

The UT guy uses a SW CC to build up his air miles to take the family to HI to keep the wife happy. Or at least as happy as she can be. They have an interesting relationship to begin with. I think the two of them being apart for 4/7ths of a week helps out their marriage.

If they put us on 12s and we ended up with OT at the end of every shift I would want to move the hell out of the state to deal with all of the stress. Hard to take the work home if you are a state or two away from it all.
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Old 04-02-2011, 08:35   #56
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How would a 10 HR SCHD lay out and what kind of man power would you need?
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Old 04-02-2011, 10:16   #57
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Our 10 hour days run kind of like 8 hour days in terms of manpower but we short graves and throw extra bodies on swings since swings is there during bar closing time. If we went to 8s all we would do in terms of manpower is take some people from swings and put them on graves. Our overlap times are 0730-0830 which is mostly taken up with roll call and gearing up or down, 1630-1730 which is als taken up with roll call and gearing up or down, and 2230-0230 which is when we need it most on Thurs-Sat and sometimes Tues.
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Old 04-02-2011, 10:22   #58
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How would a 10 HR SCHD lay out and what kind of man power would you need?
It depends on the area and coverage needs.... Here, each area command (or whatever the hell we're call them these days) runs 7 patrol shifts. 2 day shifts, 3 evening shifts, and 2 night shifts. Patrol rotates their schedule (days on/off).

The day and night shifts work weekends for a month (or 28 days to be exact), then have weekends off, then back to weekends. Their work days are either tues-fri or fri-mon. Every Friday there are 2 day shifts and 2 night shifts working.

Evening shifts are trickier, because they try to work it out so two evening shifts work every night (there will be an early evening shift, and a late evening shift). This is because evenings are the busiest times (and it sucks for family life. Shifts usually range from 3p-1a to 6p-4a). Some times the schedule has an "Alamo" shift (when there's only 1 evening shift on). The different areas overlap their shifts schedules, and days on/off so as not too thin out coverage too much. It can get screwy.

I could see making it work with 2 evening shifts, but that would be more for someplace that isn't nearly as busy. If I were to come up with a 4/10 schedule for where one shift on at a time is sufficient, I would probably run the schedule something like this:

6 patrol shifts-

Day Shift 1 schedule is Tues-Fri (6a-4p)
Day Shift 2 schedule is Fri-Mon (6a-4p)


Evening Shift 1 schedule is Mon-Thurs (3p-1a)
Evening Shift 2 schedule is Thurs-Sun (3p-1a)

Night Shift 1 schedule is Tues-Fri (9p-7a)
Night Shift 2 schedule is Fri-Mon (9p-7a)

Days that shifts that are doubled up can be used for training, special assignments or projects, allowing extra people off, etc...
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Old 04-02-2011, 11:12   #59
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What do you see as the min staffing needed to have say five guys on at once?
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Old 04-02-2011, 11:39   #60
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We run 5 on graves whenfully staffed, 6 on swings when fully staffed, and 5 on days fully staffed.

Of course we have a few specialty positions such as K9, traffic, downtown, parks, etc that work during days or swings hours that add to staffing.

In all for us to run our patrol shifts at full staffing we need 94 authorzed total with about40-45 on patrol. I personally think we are top heavy and with too many people in specialty units and not enough on patrol. Minimum staffing for all shift for the whole week is about 30 people.

We also work on the team concept where there are two schedules in the week Wed-Sat and Sun-Wed. If we are short people we will work a schedule where everybody has different days off. With that scheduling we could go as low as 25 or so and not be short on the shifts. Which is sad to say because investigations or other specialty units are the last to get cut vs. patrol.
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