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Old 05-27-2011, 06:51   #41
whenmonkeysfly
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And I just got one of these for load development and critter control:

The 10 Ring

(A Smith and Wesson 610 6 1/2" 10mm)
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Old 05-27-2011, 08:12   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whenmonkeysfly View Post
And I just got one of these for load development and critter control:

The 10 Ring

(A Smith and Wesson 610 6 1/2" 10mm)
You dirty rat!! I'd love one of those ... the only thing I'd want differently than yours is an unfluted cylinder.

Nice grab!
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Old 05-27-2011, 09:55   #43
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The pics of the brass in this thread are the same as I have gotten while testing.

The chamber on a kkm barrel is not truly fully supported. This almost looks like a glock chamber, but not to the same degree.

I have tested with Lone wolf and storm lake without having this issue.

KKM is very good but not quite a max pressure chamber.
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Old 05-27-2011, 11:07   #44
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I like the KKM because they are a bit more forgiving on chamber tolerances, some of the true "match" chambers are so tight and picky you would have to chamber check each round after loading.

Glock gives so much room in the chamber because the gun Has to work, un-burnt powder or debris could cause a round not to fully chamber and not fire in a match chamber. So glock is great for duty use.

KKM is the next best in my opinion for real world use, match shooting, hunting or self defense when your gun has to fire. The three seconds it takes to clear a failure to fire could have crappy results.
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<o:p></o:p>
I was loading blind for lead free bullets, lesson learned by me, hopefully nobody reads this and makes the same error. <o:p></o:p>

Last edited by Burien; 05-27-2011 at 11:13..
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Old 05-27-2011, 15:35   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
Do you see how the book maxes out at 30,000psi for 800-X? Well the 10mm has a 37,500psi ceiling.
Not to mention the FACT that 37,500 PSI is SAAMI AVERAGE maximum rated pressure for the 10mm Auto.
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Old 05-27-2011, 21:57   #46
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Originally Posted by Burien View Post
I like the KKM because they are a bit more forgiving on chamber tolerances, some of the true "match" chambers are so tight and picky you would have to chamber check each round after loading.

Glock gives so much room in the chamber because the gun Has to work, un-burnt powder or debris could cause a round not to fully chamber and not fire in a match chamber. So glock is great for duty use.

KKM is the next best in my opinion for real world use, match shooting, hunting or self defense when your gun has to fire. The three seconds it takes to clear a failure to fire could have crappy results.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I was loading blind for lead free bullets, lesson learned by me, hopefully nobody reads this and makes the same error. <o:p></o:p>

I agree, It just depends on the intended purpose.

I polish the tight lone wolf chambers until I like them and still get a fully supported chamber.
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Old 06-20-2011, 13:06   #47
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summer is here, watch out for ammo in the hot sun, effects preassure on some max loads.
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Old 06-20-2011, 13:22   #48
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The problem seems to be that many of the loading books have been watered down to the point of the cartridge not reaching full potential. That's not true of all of them (Hornady's new manual is pretty hot), but some (Lyman) are EXTREMELY conservative. Look up some 10mm loads for 800-X if you don't believe this. Do you see how the book maxes out at 30,000psi for 800-X? Well the 10mm has a 37,500psi ceiling.

I'm not saying some of us don't do stupid stuff, and I agree with you that it's almost like a sickness exclusive to 10mm. With .45ACP, I don't go over book at all. With 10mm, however, I have. I think it's just because everyone that loads for 10mm is looking for performance, not just paper killing, easy recoiling stuff. If you just want light recoil target stuff, you have no business with a 10mm. However, if you are seeking performance, you buy a 10mm. And in the same vein, if you are seeking performance, you push the limits.

I know we do some dangerous stuff, but it's not like 3 out of every 5 of us are missing fingers. We are very careful about working stuff up slowly, checking for expansion, etc. Every once in a while an accident happens, but I doubt it happens more frequently among us than it does among the general gun shooting group.
I think the majority of this "watering" down is coming from the large volume of semi supported chambers out in the world. Not just Glock.

I personally have come to the conclusion that without a fully supported chamber and increased spring, You can't run at 37.5kpsi consistently without some risks. Everyone is cautious.

With these chambers, you depend on the brass alone.

But, If the brass had a thicker base wall/web area, maybe. IMHO

Last edited by mudrush; 06-20-2011 at 14:06..
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Old 06-20-2011, 14:10   #49
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summer is here, watch out for ammo in the hot sun, effects preassure on some max loads.
You're right. I chronoed recently some of my loads developed at winter temperatures and beside nice increase of speed there are "nice" signs of overpressure as well
So today I loaded some of my main wood loads with 8,3% less powder.
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Old 06-20-2011, 14:58   #50
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Here is the situation with SAAMI for the 10mm it is not a ceiling at 37,500 but an average of the MAP(Maximum Average Pressure) testing.

This is based on 10 cartridge test and the MAP of that test is scored based on the results.

Manufactures are responsible because they can be held liable, people like Mudrush, DT, BB are trying to provide for a select market of custom ammo but they don't know your equipment or it's condition while using their products, even though they test using exact or simular pistols.

It is possible that brass manufactures are not being as consistant to the true pressure rating, thus casings being made thinner or which are softer and flow/shear easier. Different manufactures building for thier own cartridge specs could account for the stuff we are seeing.

I hear a lot of people say that StarLine is soft and they see bulging or smiles but atribute this to lack of support. Combination of both come to mind here!

I have seen Federal Brass as shot from MP-5 10's which exibit splits on the initial factory loading. This can be a result of the fluted chamber of the MP-5 and or the cartridge case being brittle as made by Federal.

As a handloader I am responsible for my own safety...that being said...
I select the componets I wish to assemble for a particular loading.
I setup my pistol with increased recoil springs and/or stock or aftermarket barrels for my situation.
I build my loadings and test to insure 100% function more than maximum velocity although a balance for both are possible, because I take time to test and evaluate my findings. It is not that loader "A" did this that I can duplicate exactly what he/she did and expect the exact same results or safety.

I use many already fired cases from many different manufactures and test loads using some of each, but attention and careful inspection are part of every aspect of quality control on my part! I do throw away many rejected cases that show problems at any stage of the loading process, doing them single stage yeilds many opertunities to visually inspect them at each step. While working near the edge of ballistic performance I hand weigh each and every charge as though they are match grade ammunition, but that's how I roll'em! Yes it is slower! But I have 100% cofidence in my work that equals a satisfaction that pays dividens in quality custom ammunition at reasonable cost to me.

To those who use or intend to use progressive presses...leave yourself some room for variances, as there are many operations happening at the same time. Know and understand your equipment, eliminate any and all distractions and stay focused on what is going on! The one that scares me is powder bridging...this is where powder sort of gets stuck in the powder drop and all of a sudden it comes loose into one case...can we say..."Oh Oh!" Big Bada Boom!

I will say if someone doesn't share the passion of handloding don't do it, but if you are willing to understand all the processes, understand the limitations and put forth the time and effort, you too can roll your own ammunition. Safely!
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Old 06-20-2011, 15:06   #51
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Yep, no more Lee progressive press loading for me with MAX 10mm loads, I use the Dillon 550 and hand weight each charge coming from my large powder bar measure. With 800x it varies from 13.5 to 13.0 when I'm loading for a 13.0 grain charge, so each one is weighed.
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Old 06-20-2011, 17:40   #52
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Quote:
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NEVER USE 800X and Mag primers in 10mm, just a reminder... I had to pull down some loads this weekend, save your time and DO NOT LOAD MAG primers with 800x in 10mm, not a good thing.
OK!! YOU weren't even scared after posting pics of smiling brass and missing primers BUT now you are scared and didn't show any pics of the aftermath?? OMG, I want to see brass that was partially dissintigrated or mushroom clouds and missing trees in the nearby forest! DO TELL!!
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Old 06-20-2011, 18:12   #53
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OK!! YOU weren't even scared after posting pics of smiling brass and missing primers BUT now you are scared and didn't show any pics of the aftermath?? OMG, I want to see brass that was partially dissintigrated or mushroom clouds and missing trees in the nearby forest! DO TELL!!
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Old 06-20-2011, 18:19   #54
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No guns were hurt on this, just more abused brass for my scrap pile.
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Old 06-20-2011, 19:59   #55
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No guns were hurt on this, just more abused brass for my scrap pile.
Whew! It doesn't matter if you get a little shrapnel in your face or if the brass is bad, I can finally relax because after 3 pages of posts, I find out the guns are ok. I think I will have a beer.
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Old 06-20-2011, 20:05   #56
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looks like you were fireforming 10mm belted magnum brass.
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Old 06-20-2011, 20:39   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burien View Post
Yep, no more Lee progressive press loading for me with MAX 10mm loads, I use the Dillon 550 and hand weight each charge coming from my large powder bar measure. With 800x it varies from 13.5 to 13.0 when I'm loading for a 13.0 grain charge, so each one is weighed.
I've only been rolling my own for over a year on a Dillon 550. While I'm very careful with this hobby I did have a situation that concerned me so I picked up a "Press Monitor" for the added accountability.

I don't weigh every charge EXCEPT for the # of 800x but I do use check weights to verify my Dillon elec scale before each session and randomly verify during each session. I fired my first rounds with this powder tonight breaking in a Tanfoglio Witness Limited. At 8.7 gr and a 180gr FMJ I was at max load per my manuals. Those loads were stout and I liked them. Can't imagine 13 grains...wow! I also ran some LS loads that were at max and they were a close 2nd.

Thanks for posting the pics. It helps this newbie understand some of the fineer points I have not been taught.
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Old 06-20-2011, 21:13   #58
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800x - 13.0 grains is great with the 135 grain nosler JHP, others on here push them with more nitro under the cap, but I stick with 13.0-13.1, over 100 fired and the only problem I have is running out of watermellon targets!

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Old 06-21-2011, 07:13   #59
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Even with meticulous brass inspection, It is possible to have a flawed piece of brass from any manufacturer. You are still depending on the brass to handle the pressure in the unsupported areas of the chamber.

I have had situations where I know the pressures were at the Max Saami average and still had a blowout.

Ammo brass is anealed so that it can stretch to meet the chamber wall without splitting, then contract after the firing to allow easy extraction. This is a narrow state for a piece of brass to be in. And varies.

The anealing process is not suppose to be used on the base and lower wall to allow it to stay harder and stronger. But the anealing process is just a method of heating the top area of brass.

Variances in the timing/temperature or startup/stopping of this process can cause variances that are not visible to the eye.

Maybe only one in 10k pieces has some sort of issue. But you can't see it. The only way to protect against this issue is to not depend on the brass to hold the pressure(full chamber support), or back way off on the load.

Last edited by mudrush; 06-21-2011 at 07:43..
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Old 06-21-2011, 08:37   #60
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Being an old fart, I'm fond of the writings of Elmer Kieth.

Recently I was perusing "Gun Notes" were old Elmer is cursing the usage of the words "Maximum Loads". He went on to point out that in his opinion these should be called dangerous loads, due to the many, many variables involved in components, loading technique, firearms and environment. He claimed that smokeless power can quickly reach a certain point were it detonates.

For the younger guys who may not have heard of Old Man Keith, he was no stranger to hot rodding loads, especially the .44 Special, his work convinced Smith and Wesson and Remington to produce the .41 and .44 Magnum, back in the day.

He suggests the "best" load was often below max, with the most important criteria of a load being safety, accuracy and bullet construction, pointing out that to much velocity can be a bad thing if the bullet isn't constructed for it. Not to mention the unnecessary pounding of the gun.

Food for thought.

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