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Old 07-24-2011, 16:51   #81
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What model gun fired these? Is the extractor a factory original, unaltered?
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Old 07-24-2011, 19:13   #82
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g-29 with all factory parts minus wolf main spring and KKM barrel.
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Old 07-25-2011, 14:05   #83
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Concerning the Maximum pressures listed in the Lyman 49th edition for 10mm, these loads were worked up using the Copper Crusher equipment, and the pressures given in CUP, not PSI. I have not been able to find the SAAMI maximum pressure for 10mm in CUP. All the references I found list the maximum in PSI only, at 37,500 PSI. It appears from the Lyman data that they are using 30,000 CUP as the maximum. This may have been the SAAMI maximum in CUP at one time, if they ever developed a CUP maximum for that cartirdge, but I do not know. I do not think there is any reliable general formula to convert between CUP and PSI. It seems to be different for each cartridge.

I am not convinced that the reloading manual publishers have purposefully backed off on their maximum loads from the SAAMI MAP.

Thanks for pointing out that the loads you are using are well above the published maximuims. It appears from the pictures that the loads that the OP was using were generating pressures in exess of 65,000 PSI, due to the fact that the brass was beginning to flow, enlarging the primer pockets and causing the primers to fall out. I think brass does not start to flow until about 65,000 to 70,000 PSI, if I remember correctly.

Last edited by Gary Davidson; 07-25-2011 at 14:06..
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Old 07-25-2011, 16:31   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Davidson View Post
I am not convinced that the reloading manual publishers have purposefully backed off on their maximum loads from the SAAMI MAP.
I am.

Quote:

Thanks for pointing out that the loads you are using are well above the published maximuims. It appears from the pictures that the loads that the OP was using were generating pressures in exess of 65,000 PSI, due to the fact that the brass was beginning to flow, enlarging the primer pockets and causing the primers to fall out. I think brass does not start to flow until about 65,000 to 70,000 PSI, if I remember correctly.
Nonsense. Every system has a weak link and in the case of the 10mm cartridge, the weak link is the large primer pocket. It will fail far below 65k psi - I do not believe any load listed anywhere in this forum's pages (other than those associated with clear blowouts where the gun is blown apart) were resulting in anywhere near that level of pressure.

You know when you are reaching maximum SAAMI pressure on the 10mm when the primers start blowing out. I have reached that conclusion by experimenting and extrapolating known, tested numbers for specific loads. Much of that I have Mike McNett to thank for. There is no shortage of information on this forum and the 10mm reloading forum (and of course the various load books and reloading catalogs and manuals, of which there are quite a few).
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Old 07-26-2011, 11:41   #85
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Kegs, I stand corrected about the pressures. I just called Hornady and talked to the tech guy about this, and he said that the head portion of pistol brass is typically not nearly as hard as, say, a 300 RUM case head, so it would start flowing at a much lower pressure, so a guess of 65,000 PSI is likely way out of line as you say.

This is what is great about these forums. I learn something new every day. I also try to be very open to the possibility that what I think I know may be wrong.

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Old 07-27-2011, 19:57   #86
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Originally Posted by Gary Davidson View Post
I just called Hornady and talked to the tech guy about this, and he said that the head portion of pistol brass is typically not nearly as hard as, say, a 300 RUM case head, so it would start flowing at a much lower pressure, so a guess of 65,000 PSI is likely way out of line as you say.
Gary, I made the same mistake and had to post a correction on a different thread. Thanks for passing on the info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegs
You know when you are reaching maximum SAAMI pressure on the 10mm when the primers start blowing out.
Kegs, when you say "maximum SAAMI pressure", are you referring to the 37,500psi number? The reason I ask is because I have seen someone post that 37,500 psi is the maximum average pressure, but there is a higher maximum peak pressure. All the info I have found on 10mm Auto states that 37,500 is the SAAMI max pressure. I wish I could remember where I saw that post about peak pressure.

I feel comfortable with the velocities I've achieved with my handloads, and I'm confident that they are safe. However, I haven't lost any primers yet. I could be overly conservative with my loads (would rather make my mistake on that side instead of a catastrophic failure), but it would be nice to know what margin level I have should I ever want to push onward and reach the lost primers point.

I'm anxiously awaiting XmmAuto's lab results when he gets up and running. Seems like everything I do is like educated guesswork concerning where I am on the pressure curve (except that Mike McNett had some pretty stout loads tested and posted that they were under 37,500). I know I have a comfy safety margin, but I certainly don't want to be posting pictures of my G20 on this thread.

Thanks!
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Old 07-27-2011, 22:02   #87
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Good information!

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Originally Posted by TDC20 View Post
Gary, I made the same mistake and had to post a correction on a different thread. Thanks for passing on the info.



Kegs, when you say "maximum SAAMI pressure", are you referring to the 37,500psi number? The reason I ask is because I have seen someone post that 37,500 psi is the maximum average pressure, but there is a higher maximum peak pressure. All the info I have found on 10mm Auto states that 37,500 is the SAAMI max pressure. I wish I could remember where I saw that post about peak pressure.

I feel comfortable with the velocities I've achieved with my handloads, and I'm confident that they are safe. However, I haven't lost any primers yet. I could be overly conservative with my loads (would rather make my mistake on that side instead of a catastrophic failure), but it would be nice to know what margin level I have should I ever want to push onward and reach the lost primers point.

I'm anxiously awaiting XmmAuto's lab results when he gets up and running. Seems like everything I do is like educated guesswork concerning where I am on the pressure curve (except that Mike McNett had some pretty stout loads tested and posted that they were under 37,500). I know I have a comfy safety margin, but I certainly don't want to be posting pictures of my G20 on this thread.

Thanks!
All good information!
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Old 07-28-2011, 06:32   #88
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Originally Posted by TDC20 View Post
Gary, I made the same mistake and had to post a correction on a different thread. Thanks for passing on the info.



Kegs, when you say "maximum SAAMI pressure", are you referring to the 37,500psi number? The reason I ask is because I have seen someone post that 37,500 psi is the maximum average pressure, but there is a higher maximum peak pressure. All the info I have found on 10mm Auto states that 37,500 is the SAAMI max pressure. I wish I could remember where I saw that post about peak pressure.

I feel comfortable with the velocities I've achieved with my handloads, and I'm confident that they are safe. However, I haven't lost any primers yet. I could be overly conservative with my loads (would rather make my mistake on that side instead of a catastrophic failure), but it would be nice to know what margin level I have should I ever want to push onward and reach the lost primers point.

I'm anxiously awaiting XmmAuto's lab results when he gets up and running. Seems like everything I do is like educated guesswork concerning where I am on the pressure curve (except that Mike McNett had some pretty stout loads tested and posted that they were under 37,500). I know I have a comfy safety margin, but I certainly don't want to be posting pictures of my G20 on this thread.

Thanks!
SAAMI pressures are "MAX AVERAGE"

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm
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Old 07-28-2011, 20:07   #89
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Thanks, mudrush.

So, I would assume that maximum average pressure implies that there is some safety margin built into the SAAMI spec that allows a little bit of variation above that, as would be necessary because it would be impossible even with great care to load lots of ammo that had a standard deviation in velocity of zero. What that tells me is that I really shouldn't try to push pressure past 37,500, but as long as they're averaging 37,500, I'm OK even if some peak over that a little.

Will the large primers stay in the brass at 37,500 psi, and only fall out when the pressure exceeds the average a bit? I'm just trying to get a feel for where "redline" is on this cartridge since I have no pressure testing capability and have to rely on other less accurate empirical data to determine my max loads.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 07-28-2011, 23:13   #90
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I'd certainly like to learn more about the NORMA loadings and max/peak pressures of the 10mm. I loaded some 180 grain Montana Gold JHP's in new Starline Brass with 11.2 grains of Longshot and a CCI-350 LPM primers. I shot the loads from a Smith & Wesson 610 6 1/2" Revolver and guessing from felt recoil, target impact and past experiences with this load in other guns, it was probably approaching ~1500fps (See my data below). Headstamp was smearing, primers were flattening and the cases in moonclips had to be "tapped" free from the cylinder - so definitely signs of over-pressure, but primers didn't fall out

This is from the 10mm Reloading Forum > Hodgdon Powder Data Forum:

Originally Posted by MCNETT:

"Here is some info from my work with Longshot. Always start 1.0gr lower and work up in .2gr increments until you see pressure signs. (Waters' method):
Starline Brass, CCI 350 primers, 1.26" OAL. 10 shot avg. G20 85F and 5000ft elevation.

135gr Nosler 13.2gr LS - 1542fps
165 GSHP 10.4gr LS - 1356fps
180 GSHP 9.6gr LS - 1294fps
200 XTP 8.2gr LS - 1172fps

These are loads that I have worked up to and are under 37,500psi when I had them tested. I hope this helps!

-Mike"

This is from one of my previous posts (whenmonkeysfly):

"My data for a 180 grain TMJ is ~100fps more and brass looked stressed:

Hodgdon Longshot
Speer 180 Grain TC FMJ
New Starline Brass
CCI-350 Primers
1.255 OAL
6" LWD Barrel
Wolff 22# Spring
60F, Sea Level

String 1 - (9.6 Grains of Hodgdon Longshot)
1) 1403.0 4.4
2) 1392.0 -6.6
3) 1388.0 -10.6
4) 1408.0 9.4
5) 1402.0 3.4

High: 1408.0
Low: 1388.0
E.S.: 20.0
Ave.: 1398.6
S.D.: 8.3
95%: 11.5

Do you think it's the six inch barrel and sea level?

I'm looking to develop a 180 grain CMJ/JHP at ~1300fps. I seem to be getting close to those velocities with 8.4 grains of Longshot (.1 grain less than minimum?). Go figure? Just puzzled... any ideas or suggestions?"

Anyway, I found this on the net. The author doesn't cite references, so I'm somewhat skeptical of some of his information:


"Originally, NORMA loaded their 200gr.(grain) bullet at 1200fps (feet per second) and the 170gr. bullet at 1400fps. The original loads are very powerful, and I have chronographed the 170gr. bullet with velocities between 1335 to 1360fps from my S&W 610 5" barrel. I have heard and it seems confirmed that the early NORMA 10mm cartridges were not loaded too carefully. None the less, the NORMA loads are more powerful than those loaded by the major ammunition manufacturers today. Currently, there are numerous bullet weights available for the 10mm. The weights range from 135gr. to 210gr. The 10mm is a strong cartridge and is able to hold up to punishing pressures. The case was designed to withstand 53 000cup (maximum proof test round), a very impressive feat when other automatic handgun cartridges fall below 40 000cup. Original NORMA loads had cup pressures of +40 000. Current 10mm loads are anemic to original hot loads, and probably average only 38000cup. Most commercial loads have a mean pressure starting at 37 000cup and some of the more powerful loads go up to 45 000cup. Next to the .45ACP (22 000cup), and 9mm (35 700+cup) maximum pressures, the 10mm Auto is powerful indeed. Comparing the 10mm to magnum cartridges, the maximum pressures range from 46 000cup for the .357MAG down to 43 700 for the .41MAG and .44MAG. Due to the high velocities that the 10mm generates, it is a very flat shooting cartridge, which helps with longer shots. The 10mm achieves its peak pressure very quickly, and therefore needs either a strong recoil spring or strong lockup to contain the gases until the pressures become safe. The various semi automatic designs used to shoot the 10mm have strong recoil springs in order to slow the slide velocity."

(Here's the whole website: http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm01.html )

The S&W 610 I shot my loads from is a heavy N-frame revolver... the same frame the 460 and 500 use... so it's built like a tank. I think one could safely shoot a 180 grain bullet at 1400fps from a 10mm handgun. Now, I wouldn't want to shoot it a lot and/or often, because it's so punishing to the end user and firearm, but I think it's well within the capabilities of the 10mm Auto.

SAAMI Max, Peak, PSI/CUP? "The case was designed to withstand 53,000cup (maximum proof test round), a very impressive feat when other automatic handgun cartridges fall below 40 000cup." Wow, if accurate! Time for bed... with PSI's running through my head....
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Old 07-29-2011, 08:24   #91
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Thanks, mudrush.

So, I would assume that maximum average pressure implies that there is some safety margin built into the SAAMI spec that allows a little bit of variation above that, as would be necessary because it would be impossible even with great care to load lots of ammo that had a standard deviation in velocity of zero. What that tells me is that I really shouldn't try to push pressure past 37,500, but as long as they're averaging 37,500, I'm OK even if some peak over that a little.

Will the large primers stay in the brass at 37,500 psi, and only fall out when the pressure exceeds the average a bit? I'm just trying to get a feel for where "redline" is on this cartridge since I have no pressure testing capability and have to rely on other less accurate empirical data to determine my max loads.

Thanks in advance.
Looking for the redline on the 10mm is a tough one, I"d say.

When you think you have it established, along comes and issue.

I personally don't think the stock glock and other unsupported chambers can run at a real 37.5kpsi peak continously, much less a 37.5kpsi average.

That's why I recommend a aftermarket fully supported chamber.

I think it puts the oneous(spelling) on the brass to hold the pressure.
Nothing being perfect in this world, brass included, It's just not a good design for a firearm. Brass can have imperfections that are not visible to the eye.

My loads that I sell for stock barrels run at not more than 36kpsi for this reason.

The large primers will stay in the brass at even higher pressures as long as the slide doesn't unlock before the pressure drops.

Last edited by mudrush; 07-29-2011 at 08:26..
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Old 07-29-2011, 14:36   #92
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I emailed AmmoGuide and asked them about the information below (since that is where I quoted it from):

"10mm Information Posted on AmmoGuide

Can you tell me where this information came from (references)?

"Some 10mm Auto specifications approach high-power rifle loads, such as a mean working pressure of 37,000 psi and a maximum pressure of 44,000 psi. Producing substantially more muzzle energy than a .357 Magnum, it is double that of the .45 ACP."

Thanks for bringing that passage to our attention.

Our original source of that information was Frank Barnes' "Cartridges of the World", 9th Edition, page 279. .. "According to data furnished by Norma, the ammunition is loaded to a mean working pressure of 37,000 psi with a maximum pressure of 44,000 psi. This is getting up in the area of some rifle loads... This makes this cartridge more powerful than the .357 Magnum... Muzzle energy is about double that of the .45 Automatic...".

On review, we find that info optimistic for the 10mm and as a result of your query, have revised the cartridge’s description at AmmoGuide.com. SAAMI rates the 10mm's Maximum Average Pressure at 37,500 psi with a Maximum Probable Sample Mean of 40,400 psi. No published 10mm SAAMI pressure limit extends to 44,000 psi.

Please note that in May of this year, we incorporated SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure limits in the "Specifications" section of our detailed cartridge information pages and the correct Maximum Average Pressure for the 10mm has been reflected there since that time. (See http://ammoguide.com/?agnews=agn110601#no1)

Again, thanks for bringing that passage to our attention and please let us know if we can be of further assistance.

ammoguide

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Old 07-29-2011, 15:15   #93
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Which is why some ammo co.'s #'s using Barnes bullets have alway been absolutely unbelievable to me. The bullets are lloonngg and the recoil is very, very light. I don't need a chrono to tell me that they're far off the BF #'s.

IMO, 10mm is the only auto cartridge those bullets are any good for and IMO only the 125 and 140 are they any good in 10mm. I've got good exspansion with 125's in 10mm and .40. The 140's in .40 barely expanded at all in bare water jugs from a Glock 22. The 155's in 10mm expanded some but not even close to the 140's or 125's. The 140 and 155 in 10mm Mag would be sick on hog.

No way in hell I'll touch an 80 gr. Barnes in .380! It's bad enough as is but to throw 115+ gr. length bullet in that case with a featherweight expanding bullet?
I think this thread convinced me to keep the barnes bullets isolated to the 300 Weatherby/2506 and use regular stuff for glock 20. XTPs so far work just fine
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Old 07-29-2011, 23:55   #94
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Looking for the redline on the 10mm is a tough one, I"d say.

When you think you have it established, along comes and issue.

I personally don't think the stock glock and other unsupported chambers can run at a real 37.5kpsi peak continously, much less a 37.5kpsi average.

That's why I recommend a aftermarket fully supported chamber.

I think it puts the oneous(spelling) on the brass to hold the pressure.
Nothing being perfect in this world, brass included, It's just not a good design for a firearm. Brass can have imperfections that are not visible to the eye.

My loads that I sell for stock barrels run at not more than 36kpsi for this reason.

The large primers will stay in the brass at even higher pressures as long as the slide doesn't unlock before the pressure drops.
Thanks mudrush! This is great news, because I haven't even Glock smiled any brass in my stock barrel yet, so I should have plenty of margin. And yes, it makes perfect sense that the slide coming out of battery before the pressure drops off will push the primers out.

I value your experience, thanks for sharing it!
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Old 07-30-2011, 00:12   #95
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Originally Posted by whenmonkeysfly View Post
I emailed AmmoGuide and asked them about the information below (since that is where I quoted it from):

"10mm Information Posted on AmmoGuide

Can you tell me where this information came from (references)?

"Some 10mm Auto specifications approach high-power rifle loads, such as a mean working pressure of 37,000 psi and a maximum pressure of 44,000 psi. Producing substantially more muzzle energy than a .357 Magnum, it is double that of the .45 ACP."

Thanks for bringing that passage to our attention.

Our original source of that information was Frank Barnes' "Cartridges of the World", 9th Edition, page 279. .. "According to data furnished by Norma, the ammunition is loaded to a mean working pressure of 37,000 psi with a maximum pressure of 44,000 psi. This is getting up in the area of some rifle loads... This makes this cartridge more powerful than the .357 Magnum... Muzzle energy is about double that of the .45 Automatic...".

On review, we find that info optimistic for the 10mm and as a result of your query, have revised the cartridge’s description at AmmoGuide.com. SAAMI rates the 10mm's Maximum Average Pressure at 37,500 psi with a Maximum Probable Sample Mean of 40,400 psi. No published 10mm SAAMI pressure limit extends to 44,000 psi.

Please note that in May of this year, we incorporated SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure limits in the "Specifications" section of our detailed cartridge information pages and the correct Maximum Average Pressure for the 10mm has been reflected there since that time. (See http://ammoguide.com/?agnews=agn110601#no1)

Again, thanks for bringing that passage to our attention and please let us know if we can be of further assistance.

ammoguide

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(And, changing my Glock Talk signature.)
Great information, whenmonkeysfly Thanks for researching that and posting Ammoguide's response. Now we all know where that came from, and even more importantly, that the original MPSM pressure documented in that source was probably a typo. 40,400 makes more sense to me as that's 7.7% above the Max Average, vs. the 44,000 number, which is 17.3% over. Intuitively, 17.3% over the Max. Average seems like a lot. I would have guessed about 10% with a proof load significantly more than that.

BTW, I did some 180 gr. loads with 9.7gr. Longshot and CCI#300 primers in a 6" LW barrel and got almost exactly the same velocities (1400fps) with no brass issues or pressure signs at all. The difference would most likely be the standard vs. magnum primers. If you like I will post the details on the Hodgdon sticky.

Thanks!
EDIT: I found this on SAAMI's site. It's their official test document on all their cartridges, dated March 1993. It lists the MPSM pressure as 40,500.
http://www.saami.org/specifications_...wnload/205.pdf
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Old 07-30-2011, 09:02   #96
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Originally Posted by TDC20 View Post
Great information, whenmonkeysfly Thanks for researching that and posting Ammoguide's response. Now we all know where that came from, and even more importantly, that the original MPSM pressure documented in that source was probably a typo. 40,400 makes more sense to me as that's 7.7% above the Max Average, vs. the 44,000 number, which is 17.3% over. Intuitively, 17.3% over the Max. Average seems like a lot. I would have guessed about 10% with a proof load significantly more than that.

BTW, I did some 180 gr. loads with 9.7gr. Longshot and CCI#300 primers in a 6" LW barrel and got almost exactly the same velocities (1400fps) with no brass issues or pressure signs at all. The difference would most likely be the standard vs. magnum primers. If you like I will post the details on the Hodgdon sticky.

Thanks!
EDIT: I found this on SAAMI's site. It's their official test document on all their cartridges, dated March 1993. It lists the MPSM pressure as 40,500.
http://www.saami.org/specifications_...wnload/205.pdf
Great info TDC20. Looking forward to your post on Longshot on the Hogdgon thread. I'm currently working up some 155 grain Montana Gold's with 9.2 grains of Longshot, Starline Brass, 1.255 OAL, CCI-300's with my Dan Wesson Razorback Limited 10mm/5" barrel. I will also test with a G20/KKM Precision 6" barrel. (I really like Longshot and I think as a lot of range and possibilities.)
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Old 12-17-2011, 17:24   #97
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Yikes!
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Old 02-15-2012, 17:09   #98
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Yep, Those are a bit too much, better to load for reliability not just velocity...Yes the copper solids are very long bullets, the Barnes 140's are as long as the Hornady 200XTP's. see my post http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1327396

I had to re-adjust the AA9 loading, I dropped down to 12.7 grains and bullet will only seat to 1.270", This may get adjusted again to seat to 1.255". I may also adjust the AA7 load upward some, as I continue to study everthing I can using these solid copper bullets.

Thanks for the pics they capture and show your experience well. The high impulse is pushing the slide back while pressure is still high, casing is swollen tight to chamber, hence the extractor over bite and the brass flow. Seeing the missing primers and leaks, also shows that the slide moved back away from the case head at some point before the bullet exited the barrel. A stronger recoil spring is not the answer for this either. You are wise to seek a different loading!
I dropped my load to 12.0 grains AA#9 to get the COL of 1.25/1.26 with 200 grain XTP. Gets close to 1200fps but hard to overcharge with AA#9
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Old 05-13-2012, 21:49   #99
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what are these flat spots on the one side of the rim?
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Old 05-13-2012, 22:16   #100
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That's from the case head swelling against the side of the breech face in the slide.
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