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Old 03-25-2011, 11:26   #1
chivvalry
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Philadelphia police assault open carrier at gunpoint - Chapter II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-vUYeJXSrA

Quote:
"Hey, Junior!" comes a voice from the other side of the squad car.
"Junior?!" I replied, as I turned around. I thought to myself, that's kind of a condescending way to greet someone, isn't it? As I turned, I prepared to ask the police officer what I could help him with.

It was then that I noticed the officer had his gun trained on my chest.
Scary stuff.

Last edited by RussP; 03-30-2011 at 19:46..
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Old 03-30-2011, 19:57   #2
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We are going to continue discussing this incident.

If you choose to post in this thread, follow ALL GT Rules, TOS and posting guidelines.

Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

Rude and insulting posts will not be tolerated.

This is a serious issue that deserves serious discussion to resolve the problem with the Philly PD.

Make positive contributions to the discussion and all will be good.

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Old 03-30-2011, 20:12   #3
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Curious

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
..I do not agree, in this situation, the onus of responsibility (for avoiding conflict regarding carrying a gun) falls on the gun owner..
Just paraphrasing your response to my statement in the old thread and hoping you would clarify.

I happened to have read through a majority of the Mark's posts on PAFOA regarding his several encounters with PPD regarding his open carrying (one time he was stopped while on a park bench OCing while also wearing headphones)..and I can say without a doubt, he knew this encounter was coming.

Last edited by DrGlock36; 03-30-2011 at 20:15..
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Old 03-30-2011, 20:38   #4
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From the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania:

§ 21. Right to bear arms.
The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of
themselves and the State shall not be questioned.

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI...1.021.000..HTM


From Title 18 of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes:

§ 6120. Limitation on the regulation of firearms and
ammunition.
(a) General rule.--No county, municipality or township may
in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession,
transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition
components when carried or transported for purposes not
prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI...1.020.000..HTM

§ 6122. Proof of license and exception.
(a) General rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or
about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to
carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement
officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce
such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary
hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI...1.022.000..HTM

§ 6108. Carrying firearms on public streets or public property
in Philadelphia.
No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time
upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of
the first class unless:
(1) such person is licensed to carry a firearm;

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI...1.008.000..HTM


If anyone would like to cite any Pennsylvania law during this discussion, usage and linking to what is on the Pennsylvania General Assembly website would be best.

Pennsylvania General Assembly Website:
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/index.cfm

Consolidated Statutes (Main contents page):
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...cons_index.cfm

Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania:
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI.../HTM/00/00.HTM

Title 18 in it's entirety:
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI.../HTM/18/18.HTM

Title 18 Chapter 61 only (PA UFA):
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI...18/00.061..HTM
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Last edited by Kith; 03-31-2011 at 01:59.. Reason: Cleaned up links, re-cited directly from PA General Assembly
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Old 03-30-2011, 20:57   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrGlock36 View Post
Just paraphrasing your response to my statement in the old thread and hoping you would clarify.

I happened to have read through a majority of the Mark's posts on PAFOA regarding his several encounters with PPD regarding his open carrying (one time he was stopped while on a park bench OCing while also wearing headphones)..and I can say without a doubt, he knew this encounter was coming.
I will, tomorrow...long day.
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Old 03-30-2011, 21:57   #6
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I would like to put forth a few more sections of the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania for your consideration:

§ 1. Inherent rights of mankind.
All men are born equally free and independent, and have
certain inherent and indefeasible rights, among which are those
of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring,
possessing and protecting property and reputation, and of
pursuing their own happiness.

§ 25. Reservation of powers in people.
To guard against transgressions of the high powers which we
have delegated, we declare that everything in this article is
excepted out of the general powers of government and shall
forever remain inviolate.

§ 26. No discrimination by Commonwealth and its political
subdivisions.
Neither the Commonwealth nor any political subdivision
thereof shall deny to any person the enjoyment of any civil
right, nor discriminate against any person in the exercise of
any civil right.

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI...00/00.001..HTM


I live in Philadelphia, and would like to see this thread discussed.

I hope this helps us get a clear start, so everyone has access to the Pennsylvania Code from the most reputable place possible, at the PA General Assembly website.

I've tried to make it as easy as possible for anyone to cite any specific section of the consolidated statutes, so we don't have to waste time second guessing the validity of links or information.

Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses) Chapter 61 is the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act, which comprises the laws concerning firearms in Pennsylvania.

A few other sections of Title 18 can bear relevance, as laid out by some case law, which is why I included a link above in case anyone needs it.

Section 6120 is a pre-emption, prohibiting a municipality (such as Philadelphia) from drafting it's own laws to prohibit anything not specifically covered by state law. Laws concerning firearms in Pennsylvania are laid out by the state, Period. Just in case anyone was unclear on that point.

The only "City of the first class" in Pennsylvania is the City of Philadelphia.

I look forward to hearing what everyone has to say.
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Last edited by Kith; 03-31-2011 at 01:59.. Reason: Re-cited from the PA General Assembly website.
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Old 03-31-2011, 05:45   #7
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Patrick Link, ADA, letter on open carry.
http://www.thecrimsonpirate.com/rtkb...iaDALetter.pdf

2009 MPOETC training (OC Excerpt)
http://www.thecrimsonpirate.com/rtkb...pdate_2009.pdf

Philadelphia police memo (9/2010) *note that this memo seems to violate their training materials
http://www.thecrimsonpirate.com/rtkb...phiaOCMemo.pdf

Samspade's excellent discussion on legalities of police encounters
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=994145
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:59   #8
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This was posted on Real Police on 10/09/2010 by one of their Moderators, Joeyd6. http://www.realpolice.net/forums/ask...ml#post1108411
Quote:
GENERAL: 1272 09/22/10 12:53:20

TO : ALL COMMANDING OFFICERS / DEPARTMENT HEADS
SUBJECT : FIREARM OPEN CARRY LAW IN PHILADELPHIA

1. DIRECTIVE 137, ENTITLED “FIREARMS” IS BEING UPDATED
CONCERNING THE PENNSYLVANIA OPEN CARRY LAWS
REGARDING THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA. THIS TELETYPE
REFLECTS THE NEW POLICY AS IT WILL APPEAR IN THE
DIRECTIVE.

2. ALL OFFICERS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT PENNSYLVANIA IS
CONSIDERED AN “OPEN CARRY STATE” WITH THE EXCEPTION OF
PHILADELPHIA. IT IS IMPORTANT TO DEFINE A FEW TERMS USED,
WHICH ARE AS FOLLOWS:

“OPEN CARRY” REFERS TO THE ACT OF OPENLY AND VISIBLY
CARRYING A FIREARM ON ONE’S PERSON.

“OPEN CARRY STATE” REFERS TO A STATE THAT ALLOWS
PEOPLE TO OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A FIREARM ON ONE’S
PERSON WITHOUT A SPECIAL LICENSE OR PERMIT.

“CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE” REFERS TO A SPECIFIC
LICENSE ISSUED TO AN INDIVIDUAL AUTHORIZING THE PERSON
TO CARRY A FIREARM CONCEALED ON HIS OR HER PERSON OR
VEHICLE.

3. IN PHILADELPHIA, UNLIKE ANY OTHER PART OF THE STATE, FOR
ANY PERSON TO LAWFULLY, OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A
FIREARM, THAT PERSON MUST HAVE A CONCEALED CARRY
FIREARMS LICENSE. SO, IN PHILADELPHIA, IF A PERSON HAS A
VALID CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE, HE OR SHE CAN
LEGALLY CARRY A FIREARM EITHER OPEN AND VISIBLE OR
CONCEALED.

4. AN OFFICER ENCOUNTERING A PERSON CARRYING A FIREARM
OPENLY IN PHILADELPHIA SHOULD FOR THE SAFTEY OF PUBLIC
INVESTIGATE AS A POSSIBLE VUFA VIOLATION.

A. SINCE A SEPARATE LICENSE IS REQUIRED IN PHILADELPHIA
AND IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY OFFICER TO KNOW WHO DOES
AND DOES NOT HAVE A VALID CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE, IT
IS ENTIRELY REASONALBE FOR OFFICERS TO TEMPORARILY
DETAIN AND INVESTIGATE ANY INDIVIDUAL CARRYING A
FIREARM EXPOSED TO DETERMINE IF THE PERSON IS
OPERATING WITH THE LAW.

B. IMMEDIATLEY SEIZE ANY FIREARMS FOR OFFICER SAFETY
DURING THE STOP AND UNLOAD THE FIREARMS IF POSSIBLE,
BUT ONLY IF IT CAN BE DONE SAFELY.

C. A 75-48A MUST BE COMPLETED AND THE BASIS FOR THE STOP
WOULD BE A “POSSIBLE VUFA VIOLATION”

D. ONCE THE OFFICER RECEIVES CONFIRMATION THAT THE
CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE IS VALID, AND THERE ARE NO
OTHER OFFENSE OR VIOLATIONS BEING INVESTIGATED,
OFFICERS SHOULD RETURN THE FIREARM AND AMMUNITION
BACK TO THE INDIVIDUAL AT THE END OF THE STOP.

E. HOWEVER, IF THE INDIVIDUAL CANNOT PRODUCE A VALID
CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE OR THE LICENSE IS NOT VALID
(I.E. EXPIRED OR REVOKED), PROBABLE CAUSE THEN EXISTS
TO ARREST THE INDIVIDUAL FOR THE VUFAVIOLATION AND
TRANSPORT THE INDIVIDUAL TO THE DIVISIONAL DETECTIVES
FOR PROCESSING. THE FIREARM AND AMMUNITION SHOULD
BE PLACED ON A PROPERTY RECEIPT (75-3) AND MARKED AS
“ EVIDENCE”. A 75-48A FOR THE INITIAL STOP MUST BE
PREPARD ALONG WITH A 75-48 FOR THE VUFA ARREST.
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:06   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chivvalry View Post
...Philadelphia police memo (9/2010) *note that this memo seems to violate their training materials
http://www.thecrimsonpirate.com/rtkb...phiaOCMemo.pdf...
How does it do so?
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:30   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
How does it do so?
Question and answer #3 in the MPOTEC_OC training states that:

Quote:
Question #3- What can police legally do when they observe a person engaging in open carry?

Answer #3- In most cases, the police cannot engage the person in anything other than a mere encounter. Unless the person engaged in lawful open carry is in violation of a specific State or Federal firearm prohibition or is carrying in a restricted area (For example: prohibitions contained in §6105, possession by a minor §6110.1, possession on school property §912, possession in a court facility §913, carrying in Philadelphia §6108, carrying in a vehicle, carrying during a declared state of emergency §6107), the officer would not have specific reasonable suspicion of criminal activity merely based on observing a person engaged in open carry. Therefore, a stop and frisk or any other seizure would not be legally justified.
This does allow the exception of carry in Philadelphia being a legal justification for a stop and frisk, however, the memo demands the stop and frisk action which eliminates officer discretion and, in my opinion, amounts to an official stance that open carrying is to be oppressed by harassment.

Additionally:

Quote:
Officers should be aware that citizens may become alarmed or concerned when
they witness persons engaged in open carry. This may be due in part to individual
sensibilities regarding firearms and the fact that persons engaged in open carry are
infrequently encountered in Pennsylvania. However, a citizen’s alarm or concern
does not alone negatively impact the rights of a person engaging in the lawful open
carrying of a firearm. Officers receiving citizen reports of a “man with a gun”
would be prudent to respond to determine the nature of the report. However, the
rights of any person engaged in the lawful open carrying of a firearm must be
carefully considered when interacting with such person. Persons engaged in the
lawful open carrying of a firearm are not subject to seizure of their person or
property based solely on the fact that they are engaging in open carry, nor may they
be required to produce identification or other documents. A person who is
engaging in open carry in Philadelphia or in an area of declared emergency may be
required to produce a valid and lawfully issued license to carry a firearm or
establish an exemption. Of course, a person engaged in the open carrying of a
firearm may engage in violations of other laws or handle the firearm in an
inappropriate manner which could constitute offenses such as: disorderly conduct,
reckless endangerment, simple assault by physical menace, etc. However, merely
engaging in the open carrying of a firearm would not necessarily constitute such an
offense.
This also states that an individual MAY BE required to produce when carrying in Philadelphia... making it clear that it is officer discretion and should not have been mandated by the memo.
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Last edited by chivvalry; 03-31-2011 at 08:34..
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:51   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrGlock36 View Post
Just paraphrasing your response to my statement in the old thread and hoping you would clarify.

I happened to have read through a majority of the Mark's posts on PAFOA regarding his several encounters with PPD regarding his open carrying (one time he was stopped while on a park bench OCing while also wearing headphones)..and I can say without a doubt, he knew this encounter was coming.
The headphones thing was a bad idea on my part. I've learned from everyone OC encounter I've had and that's one of the important ones. No more compromising my SA while carrying. Or in general.

As for knowing it was going to happen - first of all, I did not know that it was going to happen that day. I was not trying to set up the police or anything like some people seem to think. However, in hindsight, I think it's a good thing to make hot-topic issues more visible, because then it may more easily expose the corruption or lack of respect for the law that some police departments have, and helps to effect a change in their policies and treatment of citizens.

I have to bring up Rosa Parks, but do you think she thought she was going to be left alone when she refused to move?
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:56   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperGTS19801 View Post
The headphones thing was a bad idea on my part. I've learned from everyone OC encounter I've had and that's one of the important ones. No more compromising my SA while carrying. Or in general.

As for knowing it was going to happen - first of all, I did not know that it was going to happen that day. I was not trying to set up the police or anything like some people seem to think. However, in hindsight, I think it's a good thing to make hot-topic issues more visible, because then it may more easily expose the corruption or lack of respect for the law that some police departments have, and helps to effect a change in their policies and treatment of citizens.

I have to bring up Rosa Parks, but do you think she thought she was going to be left alone when she refused to move?

Viper! Welcome and glad you made it. I never pictured you as a small black woman though...
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:59   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperGTS19801 View Post
...
Welcome, sir!
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Old 03-31-2011, 09:06   #14
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Thanks for the welcome. I'm excited to see how this thread turns out - I welcome dissenting opinions, but I hope it can focus on the behavior of the police and their disregard or ignorance of the law, and how to rectify the issue, and not an OC vs. CC debacle.
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Old 03-31-2011, 09:13   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperGTS19801 View Post
...As for knowing it was going to happen - first of all, I did not know that it was going to happen that day...

I have to bring up Rosa Parks, but do you think she thought she was going to be left alone when she refused to move?
There's a little conflict here. First you say, "...I did not know that it was going to happen...", but, then you compare your situation that day to Ms. Parks, saying, "...do you think she thought she was going to be left alone when she refused to move?"

Did you think, as you imply Ms. Parks thought, you were just going to left alone open carrying there in Philly?
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Old 03-31-2011, 09:14   #16
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Viper, welcome! Glad you could make it over here.
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Old 03-31-2011, 09:20   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperGTS19801 View Post
Thanks for the welcome. I'm excited to see how this thread turns out - I welcome dissenting opinions, but I hope it can focus on the behavior of the police and their disregard or ignorance of the law, and how to rectify the issue, and not an OC vs. CC debacle.
We're glad you came in.

The behavior of certain members of PPD is well documented on different forums. PPD's policy on dealing with open carriers is posted above as well as the applicable laws.

However, any discussion of this incident must include some discussion about you and the events leading up to that day. Around here it's referred to as totality of circumstances.

No, any effort to expand the focus of this thread to a broader discussion not directly, very directly linked to this topic will not be tolerated.
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Old 03-31-2011, 09:26   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
However, any discussion of this incident must include some discussion about you and the events leading up to that day. Around here it's referred to as totality of circumstances.
Or as I like to call it cop-speak for "How can I avoid taking responsibility for my unlawful actions".

This term comes up every time we discuss bad (or criminal) actions of a LEO and citizens. It appears to also be used when Police brass want to hide bad officers from the public view.
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Old 03-31-2011, 09:30   #19
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Top score! You've demonstrated a total lack of comprehension of what the totality of the circumstance means, legally speaking. Better go back and guard the hotel. Totality speaking, of course.
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Old 03-31-2011, 09:36   #20
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As a supporter of open carry, I use open carry when appropriate, which is mostly when I'm working, and use my own discernment to dictate when I feel it is appropriate or necessary. I don't open carry for the advocacy of it, I do it because its legal, and there are times when it benefits me.

I think there was fault on both the officers part and this new ViperGTS19801 fellow, Welcome by the way, the officer overreacted and ViperGTS didn't help the matter either by being confrontational. I would have obeyed the officers commands, and after the situation was over, I would have decided if I felt the officers actions were out of line enough to file a former complaint with the dept and took it from there.

I support your right to open carry, and I also support the right of the officers to put their safety temporarily above all else until they better understand the situation.

This could have been handled better by all parties involved, and I hope everyone involved learned something valuable from this.
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