[chivvalry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-vUYeJXSrA

"Hey, Junior!" comes a voice from the other side of the squad car.
"Junior?!" I replied, as I turned around. I thought to myself, that's kind of a condescending way to greet someone, isn't it? As I turned, I prepared to ask the police officer what I could help him with.

It was then that I noticed the officer had his gun trained on my chest.

Scary stuff.

[RussP]

We are going to continue discussing this incident, now focusing on how to solve the issues and problems surrounding this incident.

If you choose to post in this thread, follow ALL GT Rules, TOS and posting guidelines.

Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

Rude and insulting posts will not be tolerated.

This is a serious issue that deserves serious discussion to resolve the problem with the Philly PD.

Make positive contributions to the discussion and all will be good.

RussP

[clos1084]

who called mmr's Preston and Steve this morning abt this lol?

[RussP]

Originally Posted by clos1084

who called mmr's Preston and Steve this morning abt this lol?

He did.

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2ce3n0m&s=7

Originally Posted by ViperGTS19801

You should be able to get the podcast tomorrow at www.prestonandsteve.com - it wasn't anything special, I just thought I would use their "Open Phone Philadelphia" segment to get the word out real quick that OC is legal in Philly if you have an LTCF from PA. Didn't have the time to get into any other details like reciprocal licenses, though.

[RussP]

I believe we should just cut to the chase and decide how best to correct the issues citizens of Philadelphia have regarding the lawful carry of firearms within the city limits.

THE main issue is the exception granted to 'cities of the first class'. Changing that exception will require legislative action or a legal challenge. Who is best suited to begin those processes?

Next is, lacking a better phrase, the rehabilitation of PPD. What is the best way to begin that process? Who is best qualified to organize the effort?

Another task is educating the public in Philadelphia about the legality of open carry. Are there a couple of squeaky clean open carriers who can representative the rest? Who can organize radio interviews, press releases, informational meetings, etc.?

Those are the issues.

Who wants to take point?

[RussP]

Forgot, someone needs to counsel open carriers on the risks involved in carrying openly in Philly and the consequences of varying degrees of behavior...just in case.

[USAFE7]

Both VERY good observations Russ.

[Kith]

Originally Posted by RussP

Next is, lacking a better phrase, the rehabilitation of PPD. What is the best way to begin that process? Who is best qualified to organize the effort?

Ok, your way is better then mine, with less BS in the way of getting things done. I was trying to put out my way before I crashed for the night, so i'll get the links together tomorrow for the rest of what you're asking if no one else has by then.

I don't have, and don't know where to find, the answers to the two questions in bold.

Thanks for keeping us coherently making progress.

[Bruce M]

Originally Posted by RussP

Another task is educating the public in Philadelphia about the legality of open carry. Are there a couple of squeaky clean open carriers who can representative the rest? Who can organize radio interviews, press releases, informational meetings, etc.?


?

Someone who is squeaky clean probably is reserved in their actions and thoughts, and very deliberate in most everything they do. As a result they may wish to avoid the kind of controversy that can arise out of this. I am not suggesting that open carriers are not squeaky clean, but rather that those that are may eschew potential controversy.

[RussP]

Originally Posted by malakas

The entire paradigm of modern policing hinges on complying with Officer instructions, even if wrong. However, for that to work long term, there must be a fair process after the fact that makes things right. Overzealous Officers should still be complied with, but later on any wrongful actions need to be corrected through dicipline, lawsuits, retraining, fines, suspensions, even prison (if bad enough) or any number of ways. There is already that to some degree, but the question remains are there enough checks and balances on a broad scale and is the pendulum far enough on the side of John Q Public or is it almost always automatically on the side of agents of goverment?...

See, you do understand. Resolving those points will be part of the solution.

How about you taking the lead on establishing the necessary criteria.

[RussP]

Originally Posted by Bruce M

Someone who is squeaky clean probably is reserved in their actions and thoughts, and very deliberate in most everything they do. As a result they may wish to avoid the kind of controversy that can arise out of this. I am not suggesting that open carriers are not squeaky clean, but rather that those that are may eschew potential controversy.

There are plenty of candidates. If you read the posts on PAFOA.org you'll see many passionate supporters of the 2nd Amendment, concealed carry and open carry, who qualify.

For clarification, when you say they may wish to avoid the controversy that can arise, what controversy do you mean?

[Kith]

Originally Posted by RussP

I believe we should just cut to the chase and decide how best to correct the issues citizens of Philadelphia have regarding the lawful carry of firearms within the city limits.

THE main issue is the exception granted to 'cities of the first class'. Changing that exception will require legislative action or a legal challenge. Who is best suited to begin those processes?

Next is, lacking a better phrase, the rehabilitation of PPD. What is the best way to begin that process? Who is best qualified to organize the effort?

Another task is educating the public in Philadelphia about the legality of open carry. Are there a couple of squeaky clean open carriers who can representative the rest? Who can organize radio interviews, press releases, informational meetings, etc.?

Those are the issues.

Who wants to take point?

Part of being that good citizen you claim to be is taking an active part in the legislative process of your government.

Today's gonna be a long day for me, but to get you guys started on doing your homework, here's the very short version of what you'll need.

To get a bill passed into law in PA: (short version)

Legislative Reference Bureau writes it into bill form:
http://www.palrb.us/

Then it'll go to the House:
http://www.house.state.pa.us/index.cfm

If it passes there, it goes to the Senate:
http://www.pasen.gov/index.cfm

Then it'll land on the Governor's desk:
http://www.governor.state.pa.us

Then it becomes law if signed.

The process is much more involved then that, but those are the absolute bare basics.

Here's a list of links that'll help in this process:

Legislators by county:
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...ator/index.cfm

Email addresses, Members of the House:
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...ist.cfm?body=H

Email addresses, Members of the Senate:
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...ist.cfm?body=S

Contact PA Governor:
http://www.governor.state.pa.us/port...y/contact/2998

Other helpful contact links:

Contact PA Attorney General:
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/theoffice.aspx?id=71

Philadelphia City Council Members:
http://www.phila.gov/citycouncil/CouncilMembers.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok people, here's the deal.

This pretty much just applies to people from Pennsylvania.

Nothing will get done without effort, making changes to laws requires much more then a 5 minute attention span.

I challenge all of you to put your money where your mouth is.

If you didn't think this is what we were working towards, then make no mistake - the easy part was the talking we did here.

We're close to figuring out what to say to the people who can make changes for us.

For as much effort as went into criticizing the way things are, now put the same effort into making the changes you demand.

Nothing will change without people stepping up and taking action. It's gonna take more then one or two to make this happen.

So get your pens ready, you're gonna have a bunch of letters to send.

Type it up, print it out, and sign your name in pen at the bottom. Make sure your name is readable. Typed print version and signature in pen is best.

If you're capable of posting here, you're capable of mailing letters...at the very least sending emails. If you send an email, make sure to request a response.

Email is better then nothing, but a paper letter is much better then an email. Do both and you'll have more of an impact.

If you aren't sure about sending something, ask someone first. Coming off intelligently is more important then just snapping a message out.

...please try not to make blatent grammatical errors, and remember, contractions are bad form in professional letters. Spell check your work.

There's a difference between being heard and being listened to.

MOST IMPORTANT:

Your work doesn't stop with sending the letters. If a new bill is introduced, pay attention to it through the PA General Assembly website. If bad amendments get tagged on, write a whole new batch of letters in protest to all the people who will vote on it.

We want to fix things, not make them worse. Not paying attention can be worse then doing nothing.

I've been fortunate enough to have time over the last few days to spend here, but my work comes and goes in cycles. When I have downtime I have a lot, when I don't I barely get sleep. I'll swing by as often as I can to help with this.

Thanks for your help!

[Kith]

Originally Posted by RussP

How about we move on to developing solutions.

Yeah, you're thinking that's no fun, that takes work and is boring. For some, most, yeah it is. They prefer letting others do the heavy lifting.

Thankfully, there are those out there who thrive on solving problems and enjoy the satisfaction of knowing their hard work benefited many. It does feel good.

[johnnysquire]

Originally Posted by Kith

The exception granted to Philadelphia (cities of the first class) by state law, requiring a license to Open Carry in city limits, is a problem that needs to be corrected.

Can we agree on this?

We could achieve the same ends by changing 18 Pa.C.S. § 6122, which permits law enforcement officers to demand proof of license without probable cause or reasonable suspiscion. That would force PPD to change their policy with less upset to the apparent compromise reflected in 6108.

There may be other ways, too - maybe making open carry without a license a secondary offense. That said, I doubt any of these will get traction anytime soon without a headline case.

[Kith]

Originally Posted by RussP

...Another task is educating the public in Philadelphia about the legality of open carry. Are there a couple of squeaky clean open carriers who can representative the rest? Who can organize radio interviews, press releases, informational meetings, etc.? ...

Originally Posted by RussP

There are plenty of candidates. If you read the posts on PAFOA.org you'll see many passionate supporters of the 2nd Amendment, concealed carry and open carry, who qualify.

http://www.pafoa.org/

Being serious about effecting change will mean going to PAFOA to find more resources and people willing to edit and help draft the letters that need to be written.

Going there will also raise awareness of what we have learned over here.

People at that site are a great resource available to Pennsylvanians in what we are going to have to do to fix it, so just be aware of this fact.

Ok, that's it for my morning coffee, so time to get out the door.

I hope this helps everyone get started.

[Kith]

Originally Posted by johnnysquire

We could achieve the same ends by changing 18 Pa.C.S. § 6122, which permits law enforcement officers to demand proof of license without probable cause or reasonable suspiscion. That would force PPD to change their policy with less upset to the apparent compromise reflected in 6108.

There may be other ways, too - maybe making open carry without a license a secondary offense. That said, I doubt any of these will get traction anytime soon without a headline case.

Ok, one last thing -

This is a good post and bears more discussion.

[chivvalry]

Originally Posted by Kith

http://www.pafoa.org/

Being serious about effecting change will mean going to PAFOA to find more resources and people willing to edit and help draft the letters that need to be written.

Going there will also raise awareness of what we have learned over here.

People at that site are a great resource available to Pennsylvanians in what we are going to have to do to fix it, so just be aware of this fact.

Ok, that's it for my morning coffee, so time to get out the door.

I hope this helps everyone get started.

I hope you don't mind but I already posted (quoted) your previous "here's what to do" message over on the PAFOA forum.

[Fox]

If there is state preemption, it's likely that city hall is going to act as if state preemption does not exist.

So why not make criminal penalties for city politicians and police that are going against the law?

[Gallium]

Originally Posted by RussP

...

This is a serious issue that deserves serious discussion to resolve the problem with the Philly PD.
...

You say "...problem with the Philly PD"

but the scope of the issue is far wider than just with the PD. So far in my tiny mind I've identified...

1. A legislative issue.

2. A training issue. A Philly Sgt should be aware of what is, and is not the law as it applies to folks who can (and how they can) carry guns within that jurisdiction.

3. A human issue. Someone who decides to OC should realize they are as prone to interactions from the police as say, a woman in NYC who decides to go shirtless (it is legal here). That person should make deliberate attempts at being platonic, calm and as cordial as possible. It is entirely feasible to follow lawful commands by LE without making an ass of yourself, or allow your comments or actions to catalyze the situation.

4. An issue of tactics. Some may wear their armor openly, but due consideration should be given to the fact that one is advertising one has a gun. I suspect there are parts of Philly the OCer would not venture in - day or night open carrying, but might venture thru those parts concealed carrying.

[RussP]

Originally Posted by NYC Drew

You say "...problem with the Philly PD"

but the scope of the issue is far wider than just with the PD...

Yes it is...see post #3.

[OldCurlyWolf]

Originally Posted by USAFE7

Both VERY good observations Russ.

I Agree.

[guyandarifle]

As I understand it VA (as a state) allows OC without permit. It is also my understanding that Philly, being a City of the First Class requires a special carry permit.

Here's what I don't understand; this essentially makes the entire state of TN (and any other state that requires a permit to carry regardless) one great big Philly. Outside of a few niche exceptions (hunting, etc) carrying a loaded firearm in any manner is prohibited.

So if LE in the whole state of TN can handle what, at least to my understanding, is essentially the same situation that Philly has then either TN LEO's deserve some real kudos or the PPD is left looking like total idiots by comparison.

Or am I still missing something?

[Bruce M]

Originally Posted by RussP

There are plenty of candidates. If you read the posts on PAFOA.org you'll see many passionate supporters of the 2nd Amendment, concealed carry and open carry, who qualify.

For clarification, when you say they may wish to avoid the controversy that can arise, what controversy do you mean?

For one, the issue that apparently the Philadelphia Police Department is not fond of open carry, and contact between them and open carry can result in controversy. My gut instinct is that at least some of the open carriers may not wish to carry openly with a large city/urban area.

[Sam Spade]

From the cheap seats:

Y'all need to ignore PPD in this process. Make the changes legislatively first and separate from any concerns about how PPD handled the encounter. Departments are very territorial about their rules and procedures. Street cops are even more territorial about safety issues. Getting into a whizzing contest and trying to impose something like the earlier "training" manual will get heels dug in.

[Dragoon44]

Originally Posted by Sam Spade

From the cheap seats:

Y'all need to ignore PPD in this process. Make the changes legislatively first and separate from any concerns about how PPD handled the encounter. Departments are very territorial about their rules and procedures. Street cops are even more territorial about safety issues. Getting into a whizzing contest and trying to impose something like the earlier "training" manual will get heels dug in.

I agree, plus removing the city of the first class thing will remove the basis for the policy as well.