GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-12-2011, 06:17   #26
MeefZah
Cover is Code 3
 
MeefZah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 3,501
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiremanMike View Post
It is certainly obvious that you couldn't care less about our struggle, because you feel you've been wronged by the union in the past.
I'm not sure where you keep coming up with this, I was not union at MG. Ironically, had I been, I'm sure none of that garbage would have happened. I don't feel "wronged" by the union. They are / were uninvolved with that issue.

As far as rate of pay at the state, for part time, it is still the second lowest paid agency in the metro area (Columbus State CC PD gets that honor, at $14.90 / hr to start. Incidentally most armed security in the metro area is around $14.00 / hr non union and unarmed court security starts at $15.90 / hr non-union). Full time at the state top pay is on par with a lot of other agencies, though. And yes, you are correct in a few points, I do pay into PERS-LE; so that is a benefit I forgot. I also get sick days, forgot them too. However, all the "past practice" in the world can't help when the union agrees that a part time employee should be considered "at will" and can be dismissed at any time for any reason. As far as the union saving us from being replaced with security, okay; when security gets sworn and has arrest and investigative powers then maybe the union can stand up to protect the job for us coppers. I'm not sure how I'd feel about Wackenhut running a rape investigation, but the state is looking to save money so maybe it's in the cards.

Having said that, I think you are missing the points of my posts since your judgement is clouded. Just because someone isn't beating the war drum with you doesn't mean they hope you fail. I hope the referendum passes and I hope you make scads of money, the kind you can roll around naked in bed with. My posts have simply been intended to represent the irony of the union taking but not giving; the disparity between pay rates for guys who are essentially doing the same job in various regions of the state, with / without unions, and part / full time; and to point out that the public who makes $8 / hr doesn't like to hear about cops making $26 / hr complaining that they are underpaid.

I guess, if you are worried about making a whole lot less money, you can always take the other guy's awesome advice and go find another job. I think you can just sign up for any agency you want and you're in, automatically.
__________________
"No amount of indoctrination or textbook learning will in themselves develop more than efficient mediocrity. Operations should be handled with a combination of force, subtlety, shrewdness, guile, and knowledge born of actual experience." - DF

Last edited by MeefZah; 04-12-2011 at 06:30..
MeefZah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2011, 10:20   #27
Morris
CLM Number
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: North of Seattle, South of Canada
Posts: 11,163


Quote:
Having said that, I think you are missing the points of my posts since your judgment is clouded. Just because someone isn't beating the war drum with you doesn't mean they hope you fail. I hope the referendum passes and I hope you make scads of money, the kind you can roll around naked in bed with. My posts have simply been intended to represent the irony of the union taking but not giving; the disparity between pay rates for guys who are essentially doing the same job in various regions of the state, with / without unions, and part / full time; and to point out that the public who makes $8 / hr doesn't like to hear about cops making $26 / hr complaining that they are underpaid.
A-frackin-men!
__________________
Neo-pagan, FORMER Libertarian, Cop, Gun Owner, Jewish Heritage - I'm the small talk at parties!

Certified Glock Armorer
Certified M&P Armorer

Say NO! to Washington I-594
Morris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2011, 10:28   #28
ateamer
NRA4EVR
 
ateamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: In the hallway - it's on cuz!
Posts: 14,613
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeefZah View Post
and to point out that the public who makes $8 / hr doesn't like to hear about cops making $26 / hr complaining that they are underpaid.
No one who is making $8/hour has a job that requires the training and decision making that ours does, nor will their job carry the consequences that ours does for mistakes.
__________________
Firearms instructor/Glock armorer
Airplane pilot - Commercial/Instrument rating
49er Faithful
Know-it-all
ateamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2011, 11:41   #29
strangepork
Senior Member
 
strangepork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 680
Cop Talk
strangepork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2011, 12:05   #30
DaBigBR
No Infidels!
 
DaBigBR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Circling the wagons.
Posts: 15,885
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamer View Post
No one who is making $8/hour has a job that requires the training and decision making that ours does, nor will their job carry the consequences that ours does for mistakes.
While I agree, try to convince them of that. And they vote.

FWIW when I started as a full time officer in August or 2005 I was making $11.89/hour.
__________________
"Logic is rarely the engine that propels a police department forward."

-David Simon in "Homicide"
DaBigBR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2011, 12:57   #31
Naelbis
Senior Member
 
Naelbis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ND
Posts: 2,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamer View Post
No one who is making $8/hour has a job that requires the training and decision making that ours does, nor will their job carry the consequences that ours does for mistakes.
I barely made $11 an hour when I started and one of the small local PD's payed less than that. No collective bargaining in my state, only market forces.
Naelbis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2011, 14:40   #32
Hunca Munca
nonplussed
 
Hunca Munca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: allegheny county
Posts: 1,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamer View Post
No one who is making $8/hour has a job that requires the training and decision making that ours does, nor will their job carry the consequences that ours does for mistakes.
They do at small departments in Western Pennsylvania!!!
__________________
My cynicism comes from experience.
Hunca Munca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2011, 09:44   #33
Dukeboy01
Pretty Ladies!
 
Dukeboy01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 2,369
Well, our elected officials hate us too...

http://www.kentucky.com/2011/04/13/1...-off-city.html

Money quote:

Quote:
Save $5.6 million in police, fire and corrections collective bargaining contracts, plus $3.1 million through a variety of other means, including eliminating unscheduled overtime in the fire department and not filling vacancies.

"Our negotiations with unions just didn't adequately factor in the long-term financial health of the city," Gray said.

He also said there must be "permanent changes in the benefits" offered to future employees in those departments, otherwise, "we will never catch up."
A $5.6 million dollar cut split evenly between the PD and the FD would workout to a 10% pay cut acrosss the board. Not gonna happen. Which means layoffs, except he just cut our authorized strength from 595 positions to 535 by eliminating the 60 vacancies we have. A lieutenant told me that puts our officer to citizen ration at 1.78 officers per 1,000 citizens. In practice the mayor's office is pretty weak. . The council runs the show and I don't see them being willing to pull the trigger on layoffs of police or fire.

There's an awful lot of crap that he didn't touch at all. The 28 layoffs he proposed are low- level employees primarily in make- work jobs at city hall.
__________________
"You want it to be one way... but it's the other way." - Marlo Stanfield
Dukeboy01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2011, 20:09   #34
VPD4327
Senior Member
 
VPD4327's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: East Coast
Posts: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamer View Post
No one who is making $8/hour has a job that requires the training and decision making that ours does, nor will their job carry the consequences that ours does for mistakes.

I certainly hope your're only speaking of non LE...I started out in a sheet hole for $9.00/hr with no benefits. 39 hrs a week-you go over cause of a late arrest, it's on you. Start putting in pay slips for it and you'll find you're way out the back door. Granted, it was a stepping stone agency but the principal is the same.
VPD4327 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2011, 00:04   #35
ZombieKing
Senior Member
 
ZombieKing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamer View Post
No one who is making $8/hour has a job that requires the training and decision making that ours does, nor will their job carry the consequences that ours does for mistakes.
True.

But the $8 an hour person doesn't want to hear that nor do they care. They simply focus in on the dollar amount without considering any other factors.
__________________
Chuck Norris isn't afraid of 10mm.
Chuck Norris IS 10mm.
Every 10mm fired has a pin drop of Chuck Norris sweat placed inside it during the manufacture of said round. This most holy of sweat is what gives the 10mm its power. -- Said by me ;)
ZombieKing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 06:52   #36
Kadetklapp
Methberry PD
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,603
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeefZah View Post
Meh.

Mike and some others will hate me ...

...but I'm here to tell you, I work a non-union police job and I make $30,000 a year.

I work a second part time gig (for the state police) to make ends meet... and at that gig I'm made to pay the FOP $50 / month, but they refuse to provide me with any union services because I'm a part time employee. So I have to pay in, but I get nothing for it. So in that case, the union is "extorting" me.

$31 / hour minus $5 an hour is still way the **** more than I make at either job, even at an overtime rate at either job. So I have a hard time feeling sorry for poor CPD; and I guarantee that in this economy publicly crying about "only" making $26 / hr to stand around at Kroger and flirt with the cashiers is going to piss off a lot of the electorate who work hard ass jobs for near minimum wage.

This article doesn't specifically report on it, but there is a sense of entitlement that a lot of cops have that I am sick of, and the general public is sick of. We can be our own worst enemy with this sort of thing.

I'm not gonna say that higher paid coppers don;t deserve what they make, but crying about it in a public forum isn't going to win any sympathy from most people.
I'm with you.

Sorry guys. I'm a citizen before i'm a cop. I'm tired of public sector unions holding taxpayers hostage.

Second to that, the FOP is a joke. They refuse to even offer membership to part time or volunteer police officers in my AO. They refuse to offer membership to correctional officers, probation officers, or anyone else that they deem not "cop" enough for their organization. The FOP does an excellent job of pitting police officers against each other. I have no candy for the FOP specifically or unions in general.
Kadetklapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 09:19   #37
FiremanMike
Way too busy
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadetklapp View Post
Sorry guys. I'm a citizen before i'm a cop. I'm tired of public sector unions holding taxpayers hostage.
That's just typical right wing/tea party rhetoric, and it's bull****.

Once again, cities can't print money. If they cant afford their public safety forces, they go to them for pay freezes or just lay them off, it's been happening this way all along.

Cities are paying their cops and firemen exactly what they can afford to pay them, no more, and some times less..
FiremanMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 09:28   #38
Kadetklapp
Methberry PD
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,603
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiremanMike View Post
That's just typical right wing/tea party rhetoric, and it's bull****.

Once again, cities can't print money. If they cant afford their public safety forces, they go to them for pay freezes or just lay them off, it's been happening this way all along.

Cities are paying their cops and firemen exactly what they can afford to pay them, no more, and some times less..
No, I'm sorry, but it's not. An "organization" (corporation) is contracted to demand better pay/benefits for public service agents. The taxpayers are forced to pay these higher wages/benefits or the employees strike/sit-out/whatever. That's extortion. I cannot lend my support to such an organization. They also drive a wedge between employees it doesn't consider "good enough" for it's services but has no problem taking their money.

You have politics, money, and special interests involved. It's a dirty game. Instead, why don't we hold elected officials accountable (sheriff's, judges, prosecutors)?

I worked for a beast of a sheriff. I'm still counting the days until he lands his own ass in federal prison. He was about as corrupt as they get and treated us horribly. Lots of folks lost their jobs. However I still in good conscious cannot support a "union" for government employees.
Kadetklapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 10:08   #39
wprebeck
Die, bird, die!
 
wprebeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In a swamp, if I'm lucky
Posts: 8,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadetklapp View Post
I'm with you.

Sorry guys. I'm a citizen before i'm a cop. I'm tired of public sector unions holding taxpayers hostage.

Second to that, the FOP is a joke. They refuse to even offer membership to part time or volunteer police officers in my AO. They refuse to offer membership to correctional officers, probation officers, or anyone else that they deem not "cop" enough for their organization. The FOP does an excellent job of pitting police officers against each other. I have no candy for the FOP specifically or unions in general.
<---- is a corrections officer.

I'm also an active member of the FOP, having once been a shift union representative and currently chair of the legislative committee and represent our lodge as a legislative agent in the state legislature.

The FOP isn't anti-corrections at all...they simply require that arrest authority be a prerequisite for membership. Lexington corrections has a lodge, and is currently trying to decertify their present collective bargaining agent in favor of the FOP. We've had them for representation for eight years now.

In that eight years, I've gotten a substantial pay increase (started at $10/hr, eleven years ago, and am making over 90% more now). I have a FREE lawyer that covers me for ANY actions against me, be they criminal or administrative, on or off duty, so long as they are job related (they wont represent me for a DUI, but will for a lawsuit filed if I was working off duty and caught an excessive force complaint).

We also have a better contract than we did when the lying, thieving Teamsters were our representatives. They'd sell out someone in a heartbeat, the FOP has tried to keep things equal for all.

So, say what you want. I've seen what its like not being with the FOP, and how things are with them. Ill take the latter, based on eight years of membership, the last four of which have seen me directly involved. I speak with state and local elected officials to help better working conditions and the like for our officers. Yeah, I'm one of the hated and loathed "lobbyists" that we hear about. Wouldn't have it any other way. Matter of.fact, I'm introducig a state rep at tonights meeting that has been invaluable to us - we've got a little show of appreciation for her.

Oh, and duke - when you gonna get back down there?

Anyway, wanted to clear that up with the whole FOP is anti-corrections thing. They're (we're) not.
__________________
Take 'em!
wprebeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 10:19   #40
wprebeck
Die, bird, die!
 
wprebeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In a swamp, if I'm lucky
Posts: 8,444
KK -

You might also check state laws and specific union contracts....most, if not all, contracts for public safety agencies do not allow job actions like strikes or sick outs. Participating in such activities is.grounds for.summary termination, as it should be. In addition, many states have laws prohibiting strikes by public safety agencies, specifically police.

Again, that's as it should be. Negotiating for pay and wages is one thing. Putting the public safety at risk is another. We can, and have (not my lodge, we assisted another) picketed/protested, though.

Oh, and to my knowledge, we aren't incorporated. I'll check on that, and correct it, if im wrong.

Point is, the FOP is a big asset. Sorry you don't see it that way. I've got personal experience with them, and you apparently bought into the anti-union hype. Hope that changes, and if you ever have questions, let me know. I can put you in touch with the state leadership in your area.
__________________
Take 'em!
wprebeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 10:46   #41
Kadetklapp
Methberry PD
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,603
Quote:
Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
KK -

You might also check state laws and specific union contracts....most, if not all, contracts for public safety agencies do not allow job actions like strikes or sick outs. Participating in such activities is.grounds for.summary termination, as it should be. In addition, many states have laws prohibiting strikes by public safety agencies, specifically police.

Again, that's as it should be. Negotiating for pay and wages is one thing. Putting the public safety at risk is another. We can, and have (not my lodge, we assisted another) picketed/protested, though.

Oh, and to my knowledge, we aren't incorporated. I'll check on that, and correct it, if im wrong.

Point is, the FOP is a big asset. Sorry you don't see it that way. I've got personal experience with them, and you apparently bought into the anti-union hype. Hope that changes, and if you ever have questions, let me know. I can put you in touch with the state leadership in your area.
I should have been more specific- in my AO, the FOP refuses representation to correctional officers or part-time police officers, as well as reserve officers (obviously they aren't paid). I've been told over and over again that this is because individual lodges can decide who can be members, but that makes very little sense to me.

If public safety employees are not allowed to strike, then what's the purpose of a union? I guess I don't see what good it does if there is no "threat" if the union does not get it's way. Now it just looks like a scam.

I understand lots of you are union supporters, and have had good luck with unions, and that's fine. However, and I reiterate, I will not support organizations which exist to wring out taxpayers and jack off politicians.

Here's a little story (although it has nothing to do with unions in general, just the fop in particular):
My dad gets killed on the job in 2003. The state FOP comes pouring out of the woodwork (much to the surprise of the local yokel lodge) and are on-site shaking babies and kissing hands. The "crisis team" swoops in and takes over arrangements and handles things beautifully. Of course, after dad is put in the ground they take off and things are left to run their course. COPS was great to our family and did a lot to help heal us. However, when my family was denied the federal death benefit for law enforcement officers, things got bad. Initially, the FOP provided their lawyer to my mother to assist in filing the appeal for the death benefit. It was denied again. My mother and I went to the state FOP headquarters to find out what could be done. It was then we were told that since my father was not a member of the FOP, they are declining to do anything more. That's fine. completely their prerogative and we were thankful for what had been done to that point. However, they claim they were so wonderful for helping out, but their own lodge wouldn't allow my dad to be a member of their wonderful organization, because the local lodge shut out everyone but their own little niche of city cops, full time deputies, and state troopers. Basically discrimination against anyone they don't feel is "cop enough" to pay dues to them. Whatever, life goes on.

To this day I cannot be a member of the FOP because evidently being a full-time special deputy and a part-time paid town marshal are not enough. Someone at national FOP needs to pull their head out.

Last edited by Kadetklapp; 04-26-2011 at 10:48..
Kadetklapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 11:47   #42
FiremanMike
Way too busy
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadetklapp View Post
No, I'm sorry, but it's not. An "organization" (corporation) is contracted to demand better pay/benefits for public service agents. The taxpayers are forced to pay these higher wages/benefits or the employees strike/sit-out/whatever. That's extortion. I cannot lend my support to such an organization. They also drive a wedge between employees it doesn't consider "good enough" for it's services but has no problem taking their money.

You have politics, money, and special interests involved. It's a dirty game. Instead, why don't we hold elected officials accountable (sheriff's, judges, prosecutors)?

I worked for a beast of a sheriff. I'm still counting the days until he lands his own ass in federal prison. He was about as corrupt as they get and treated us horribly. Lots of folks lost their jobs. However I still in good conscious cannot support a "union" for government employees.
I'm sorry sir, but you are completely ignorant to the way public safety unions work. We cannot strike, we cannot really make demands. In the end, if we demand something the city refuses to give, it goes to fact finding who looks at all the figures and makes a binding decision that both parties must accept. If you're curious, in Ohio, the last figure I heard is that the arbitrators sided against the union around 85% of the time.
FiremanMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 12:38   #43
Kadetklapp
Methberry PD
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,603
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiremanMike View Post
I'm sorry sir, but you are completely ignorant to the way public safety unions work. We cannot strike, we cannot really make demands. In the end, if we demand something the city refuses to give, it goes to fact finding who looks at all the figures and makes a binding decision that both parties must accept. If you're curious, in Ohio, the last figure I heard is that the arbitrators sided against the union around 85% of the time.
So then why have a union? Again I ask WHY HAVE A UNION???

These guys who ***** and moan when they have to make concessions, I can't help but shake my head and laugh pitifully. Guys, if you're holy union hadn't mandated earlier pay increases that put your city on the broke, then you wouldn't be having to make life-altering concessions four years down the road! Again, just because we are police officers or firefighters or street sweepers does not mean we get to shake-down the taxpayer for pay and retirement packages that the municipality simply cannot afford. It's math. Unions in private industry are not a friend of mine either, but again, it's PRIVATE INDUSTRY. Government is not FOR profit. Therefore, its not supposed to be possible for the government to float bloated pay scales, bonuses, and retirement packages.

Last edited by Kadetklapp; 04-26-2011 at 12:43..
Kadetklapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 12:47   #44
pgg00
Senior Member
 
pgg00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Fled the emerald triangle
Posts: 2,502
I've never had a union and I make over $70k a year. When I first started I made $12.50 an hour (non-union). The sheriff's office north of me made less the $10 an hour and they were union. Go figure.
__________________
www.officerresource.com

WiskyT :whistling:
There's nothing like the fact that you can take educated professionals with everything on the line and add a little booze and they act like juniors in HS.
pgg00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 14:03   #45
Dukeboy01
Pretty Ladies!
 
Dukeboy01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 2,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadetklapp View Post
So then why have a union? Again I ask WHY HAVE A UNION???

These guys who ***** and moan when they have to make concessions, I can't help but shake my head and laugh pitifully. Guys, if you're holy union hadn't mandated earlier pay increases that put your city on the broke, then you wouldn't be having to make life-altering concessions four years down the road! Again, just because we are police officers or firefighters or street sweepers does not mean we get to shake-down the taxpayer for pay and retirement packages that the municipality simply cannot afford. It's math. Unions in private industry are not a friend of mine either, but again, it's PRIVATE INDUSTRY. Government is not FOR profit. Therefore, its not supposed to be possible for the government to float bloated pay scales, bonuses, and retirement packages.
In a perfect world there would be no need for unions, public or otherwise. We need them because we don't live in a perfect world.

The value doesn't lie in the existance or not of any particular union. The value lies in the ability to collectively bargain. Think of this way: It would be great for me to negotiate my own deal with my city just for me. I could document my worth to the city and prove my case with a pretty Powerpoint. My fellow officers who weren't smart enough to build a spreadsheet to prove their individual cases could get hosed by the city and their pay increases could go to me. I'd sign a contract with the city for a six- figure pay package and life would be swell.

There's just a few problems. First of all, the city doesn't want to negotiate with any of us, much less 535 individual police officers. Without state mandated collective bargaining, they wouldn't deal with any of us. Sure, we're free to quit if we don't like it. Prior to collective bargaining at my agency a lot of folks did.

Another problem is that if the city did negotiate an indvidual contract with me there would be no one to help me if the city decided to break it. I couldn't afford to pay for a lawsuit and the inevitable appeals process on my own. However, as a group we can afford to fight those battles. We also make it difficult, if not impossible, for the city to renege on the deal after the contract is signed.

Another problem is, despite my bravado a few paragraphs ago about being one of the few "smart" enough and valuable enough to negotiate my own individual kick- ass deal, I'm really not. I'd do better than most in such a free for all system than most, but I lack the resources and expertise to read the budget and find the hidden slush funds myself. With collective bargaining I pay a little in monthly dues along with everybody else and the FOP pays for an accountant and a lawyer to help us negotiate a contract.

Quote:
These guys who ***** and moan when they have to make concessions, I can't help but shake my head and laugh pitifully. Guys, if you're holy union hadn't mandated earlier pay increases that put your city on the broke, then you wouldn't be having to make life-altering concessions four years down the road! Again, just because we are police officers or firefighters or street sweepers does not mean we get to shake-down the taxpayer for pay and retirement packages that the municipality simply cannot afford. It's math. Unions in private industry are not a friend of mine either, but again, it's PRIVATE INDUSTRY. Government is not FOR profit. Therefore, its not supposed to be possible for the government to float bloated pay scales, bonuses, and retirement packages
The union doesn't mandate anything. Neither does the government. The salaries and benefits are agreed to by both parties. If the matter goes to arbitration, then both sides are given the opportunity to present their case as to why or why not something might or might not be affordable. The arbitrator decides who is telling the truth and who's not.

Financial forecasts are a tricky business. If something truly turns out to be unaffordable, then the city can ultimately declare bankruptcy and break the contract if the forecast was that far off.

More often than that the government is a long way from declaring bankruptcy. They'd just rather demand concessions from the unions than cut spending elsewhere. That's the situation we're going to be in when we start negotiations in a few weeks. The city is forecasting revenue growth over last year with no tax increases or fees. Yet the mayor's proposed budget wants $5.6 million in concessions from us and the fire department. Something's up.
__________________
"You want it to be one way... but it's the other way." - Marlo Stanfield
Dukeboy01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 14:33   #46
Kadetklapp
Methberry PD
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,603
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukeboy01 View Post
In a perfect world there would be no need for unions, public or otherwise. We need them because we don't live in a perfect world.

The value doesn't lie in the existance or not of any particular union. The value lies in the ability to collectively bargain. Think of this way: It would be great for me to negotiate my own deal with my city just for me. I could document my worth to the city and prove my case with a pretty Powerpoint. My fellow officers who weren't smart enough to build a spreadsheet to prove their individual cases could get hosed by the city and their pay increases could go to me. I'd sign a contract with the city for a six- figure pay package and life would be swell.

There's just a few problems. First of all, the city doesn't want to negotiate with any of us, much less 535 individual police officers. Without state mandated collective bargaining, they wouldn't deal with any of us. Sure, we're free to quit if we don't like it. Prior to collective bargaining at my agency a lot of folks did.

Another problem is that if the city did negotiate an indvidual contract with me there would be no one to help me if the city decided to break it. I couldn't afford to pay for a lawsuit and the inevitable appeals process on my own. However, as a group we can afford to fight those battles. We also make it difficult, if not impossible, for the city to renege on the deal after the contract is signed.

Another problem is, despite my bravado a few paragraphs ago about being one of the few "smart" enough and valuable enough to negotiate my own individual kick- ass deal, I'm really not. I'd do better than most in such a free for all system than most, but I lack the resources and expertise to read the budget and find the hidden slush funds myself. With collective bargaining I pay a little in monthly dues along with everybody else and the FOP pays for an accountant and a lawyer to help us negotiate a contract.



The union doesn't mandate anything. Neither does the government. The salaries and benefits are agreed to by both parties. If the matter goes to arbitration, then both sides are given the opportunity to present their case as to why or why not something might or might not be affordable. The arbitrator decides who is telling the truth and who's not.

Financial forecasts are a tricky business. If something truly turns out to be unaffordable, then the city can ultimately declare bankruptcy and break the contract if the forecast was that far off.

More often than that the government is a long way from declaring bankruptcy. They'd just rather demand concessions from the unions than cut spending elsewhere. That's the situation we're going to be in when we start negotiations in a few weeks. The city is forecasting revenue growth over last year with no tax increases or fees. Yet the mayor's proposed budget wants $5.6 million in concessions from us and the fire department. Something's up.
Ok, I see your explanation and I accept it, however, I still see no underlying purpose for a city or agency to agree to any union's terms. Where is the trade-off? You collectively bargain, why? I know why you the officer would, but why would the agency? If the agency is paying $30,000 a year, and Officer X wants $40,000 a year, well, in my eyes, Officer X is free to apply elsewhere or take the $30k a year. What's keeping him there if he is unhappy with the pay? I'm confused here....
Kadetklapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 15:04   #47
jtull7
CLM Number 289
Pistolero
 
jtull7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico
Posts: 6,829
From what I can tell, elected officials in Ohio hate just about everybody, except themselves and their precious base.
__________________
Cocked, locked, and ready to rock!

Every day I face Ogden, Utah, and pray that God might bless John Moses Browning.

Outpost Member #69 I collect and shoot many fine firearms. CCW: NM, CT, and NH. N5JHT. WFR. Former LEO. SAR. Bilateral trans-tibial amputee. Survivor of bubonic plague. Tough sum-*****.
jtull7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 16:42   #48
wprebeck
Die, bird, die!
 
wprebeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In a swamp, if I'm lucky
Posts: 8,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadetklapp View Post
Ok, I see your explanation and I accept it, however, I still see no underlying purpose for a city or agency to agree to any union's terms. Where is the trade-off? You collectively bargain, why? I know why you the officer would, but why would the agency? If the agency is paying $30,000 a year, and Officer X wants $40,000 a year, well, in my eyes, Officer X is free to apply elsewhere or take the $30k a year. What's keeping him there if he is unhappy with the pay? I'm confused here....
Its not all about money. While my pay has gone.up substantially, working conditions and the like are better with a union. Im in a hazardous duty retirement because of a union. I have a good position at work that's widely considered one of THE best jobs in the entire 450+ officer.department. I can't be moved out of it without just cause, and also have a lieutenant who is the best in the agency to work for. He is in his position due to the union contract, as well.

Off days, vacation selections, shifts, job assignments...all are awarded according to union contract. Hell, we had to file a "class action" grievance recently, just to get latex gloves that were a barrier for bloodborne pathogens. Yeah....something that is OSHA mandated...we had to file a grievance just to get. Sad, isn't it?


There are many other instances of issues just like this. Were it not for our contract, I wouldn't be allowed to work an off duty job for extra cash. We would be moved around from position to position without regard to seniority, etc. Off days could be changed at will, as could your shift hours. All those are guaranteed by contract.


Money is nice, don't mistake what Im saying....its just that language for working conditions is as, if not more, important. And, on your problems...im currently at our monthly meeting, and a National Trustee is here with us. I'll talk with him after the meeting, and get some info. We started our own lodge here, after years of being in the "open lodge", with Feds and every other badge wearer that didn't have their own lodge.
__________________
Take 'em!
wprebeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 17:19   #49
jtull7
CLM Number 289
Pistolero
 
jtull7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico
Posts: 6,829
BTW, when I started in LE, I made $4.92/hour or $9,400 a year. I thought I was rich.
__________________
Cocked, locked, and ready to rock!

Every day I face Ogden, Utah, and pray that God might bless John Moses Browning.

Outpost Member #69 I collect and shoot many fine firearms. CCW: NM, CT, and NH. N5JHT. WFR. Former LEO. SAR. Bilateral trans-tibial amputee. Survivor of bubonic plague. Tough sum-*****.
jtull7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 17:25   #50
amd65
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North Coast of Ohio
Posts: 840
Send a message via Yahoo to amd65
Ohio voter here...
__________________
Strange things happen when worlds collide
amd65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:16.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,025
288 Members
737 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42