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Old 04-26-2011, 19:00   #51
Dukeboy01
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Originally Posted by Kadetklapp View Post
Ok, I see your explanation and I accept it, however, I still see no underlying purpose for a city or agency to agree to any union's terms. Where is the trade-off? You collectively bargain, why? I know why you the officer would, but why would the agency? If the agency is paying $30,000 a year, and Officer X wants $40,000 a year, well, in my eyes, Officer X is free to apply elsewhere or take the $30k a year. What's keeping him there if he is unhappy with the pay? I'm confused here....
The agency or the hiring government wouldn't if they didn't have to. There's no arguing that. If they had their way they would be able to tell their employees to pound sand.

One advantage that I can think of is that it provides structure and rules for all parties. I know that's kind of abstract, but that can be a helpful thing to both sides.

But, like weprebeck said, ultimately collective bargaining is about more than the money. In fact, IMO, the money ultimately has little to do with it. The non- financial items in a contract are worth way more than any cash.

Is your agency allowed to order you to work more than 16 hours in a row absent a declared emergency, like a natural disaster? Mine's not. How many days notice must they give you before they involuntarily change your RDO schedule, absent exigent circumstances? I get five. If you are accused of misconduct by a suspect, is there a disciplinary process with a review board or does the chief just get to bawl you out and fire or suspend you without pay at will? If you have a take home vehicle can the city just take it away or change the rules on how you use it or do they have to wait to bring it up during negotiations?
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Old 04-26-2011, 21:31   #52
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So then why have a union? Again I ask WHY HAVE A UNION???

These guys who ***** and moan when they have to make concessions, I can't help but shake my head and laugh pitifully. Guys, if you're holy union hadn't mandated earlier pay increases that put your city on the broke, then you wouldn't be having to make life-altering concessions four years down the road!
Well, a union would have negotiated pay which would mean that both sides agreed to it, or an independent third party (arbitrator) awarded it. Moreover, previously negotiated pay would be by an annual fiscal budget.

Typically in municipal finances, if a subordinate organization does not utilize funds in the budget, then that money will not be a part of their budget for the following year. For instance, if you budget $100/month for car insurance, and your rates decrease to $80/month, then you would reallocate the surplus $20.

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Again, just because we are police officers or firefighters or street sweepers does not mean we get to shake-down the taxpayer for pay and retirement packages that the municipality simply cannot afford. It's math.
It is math. Much like the private sector, your value to the organization is demonstrated by the budget. State of Ohio employees have been on a wage freeze for the last couple of years, and there have been layoffs. However, when contracts were made they were based on the best information at the time, and were adjusted as was deemed necessary. My agency has not been replacing people as they separate leaving us with 4-7 cars for 688 square miles, and 12 hour shifts.

Meanwhile Kasich reappointed all of Taft's previous cabinet, that was so good at doing their job all of the businesses left for other states and countries. Some received immediate raises, and one is "double dipping." So, I ask you how is this justified?

The purpose of SB 5 has nothing to do with saving any money. Deficits were publicized, and then SB 5 was introduced. Data was then published a few weeks later on the "estimated" savings that surprisingly matched the deficit amounts to the dollar. The purpose is to eliminate unions in Ohio. If you do not like your union, then find a new one, or quit.

I might add that the unemployment rate has decreased to 8.9% http://jfs.ohio.gov/releases/unemp/2...essrelease.asp, and none of this was due to SB 5.

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Unions in private industry are not a friend of mine either, but again, it's PRIVATE INDUSTRY. Government is not FOR profit. Therefore, its not supposed to be possible for the government to float bloated pay scales, bonuses, and retirement packages.
Okay, the private sector has retirement packages. Only 2% of the Ohio budget goes to retirement contribution. This has nothing to do with county, township, or municipalities. They all have separate budgets, so where do you get bonuses, and bloated pay scales?

While I think I am fairly paid in my county, there are agencies in the adjacent county (Franklin) that pay much more. There are men and women in Perry County that don't make anything. Why is there such a disparity? Because of the way tax revenue is dispersed. Most agencies do not enjoy any of this "bloat" you mention. So, by your logic, it is important to you to hurt the people that can stand less hurting in order to address what you deem as bloated.
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Old 04-27-2011, 00:01   #53
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Ohio voter here...
Your thoughts, as a non-cop?
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Old 04-27-2011, 04:00   #54
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My thoughts, as a non cop, non public sector employee is to not support collective bargaining rights for public sector employees.
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Old 04-27-2011, 05:49   #55
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My thoughts, as a non cop, non public sector employee is to not support collective bargaining rights for public sector employees.
And your reasoning is?

I cannot stress enough how little SB5 effects the budget, and I also can't stress enough how the loss of collective bargaining will not put money back into the pockets of the taxpayer. I've said it several times throughout this thread, but it's worth mentioning again (because to be honest, I think the unions are doing a poor job of driving this home), cities are NOT going bankrupt on the backs of the safety unions. Cities cannot print money, so if they can't afford what the union "demands" they simply freeze their pay or lay people off. Chopping our benefits is not going to suddenly cause the tax rates to go down, it's not going to turn poor cities into rich ones, all it does is further punish the middle class while making no effort to change the burden on those receiving welfare or those who are very rich.

I find myself particularly disturbed at the utter arrogance of Kasich at this point, who on one hand is perpetuating this myth that firemen, cops, and teachers are bankrupting the state and we simply MUST do everything in our power to curb their spending, all while publicly and overtly giving huge tax incentives to major corporations.

On a final note, collective bargainig is good for both the cities and the public safety forces. It forces the cities to be accountable for their finances, and forces the unions to be responsible in their requests. Another myth is that unions go into negotiations with absurd demands and the cities have no option other than to agree, and this couldn't be further from the truth. Both sides are held to the same standard of responsibility, because in the end if they truly comfe to an impasse, a third party arbitrator is brought in, looks at the facts and figures, and his decision is binding and must be placed into the contract (incidentally, history shows us that arbitrators side with the municipality about 85% of the time).

Everyone needs to be making some sacrifice, there's no doubt about it, but firemen, cops, and teachers have been making financial sacrifices for quite some time. Most of us are running on skeleton crews with aging equipment, doing our best to continue providing our service to the public. As budgets have been continually failing, we have gone out of our ways to make concessions to municipalities to help them stay in the back, in spite of that, our governor is very publicly stating that this crisis is our fault, and while I cannot speak for anyone else, it makes me truly sad to find out just where I stand.
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Old 04-27-2011, 06:41   #56
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I'm going to say this- I'm not familiar with Ohio, although I know it's politics lean heavily to the left and have for years.

Again, I will not support unions in public sector workforce. If you don't like the wage, the benefits, or the retirement, then quit. I won't for a minute believe that municipalities "appreciate" and "benefit" from union involvement in workforce disputes because it "levels" the playing field and makes everyone happy and hug. I call bull**** on that.

Again, if there is no threat of strike, then it makes it pretty pointless to have a union in place, doesn't it? I mean, what's to lose for a city or agency to tell you to go get boned when you refuse to accept a pay cut or demand a pay increase? Somethings got to give. The entitlement I hear in some of your responses makes the same argument the welfare rats are always making. That because of their situation, they are "OWED" something.

Sorry guys.
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:06   #57
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I'm going to say this- I'm not familiar with Ohio, although I know it's politics lean heavily to the left and have for years.
Obviously, and btw, Ohio is historically right leaning.

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Again, I will not support unions in public sector workforce. If you don't like the wage, the benefits, or the retirement, then quit.
This is such a bull**** cop out answer. First off, I've been at my department for 11 years, my budget is based off my wage, my house, my bills, etc. Now, I get to take a 20% paycut that my city doesn't need to give me but may have no choice because of a potential change in state law. I'm not going to get into the specifics of my city because then everyone will know where I work, but we have some MAJOR businesses here that are financially sound and not going anywhere.

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I won't for a minute believe that municipalities "appreciate" and "benefit" from union involvement in workforce disputes because it "levels" the playing field and makes everyone happy and hug. I call bull**** on that.
Our city benefits because we have good people who stick around through a whole lot of bull**** because our pay is decent and our benefits are good. I'm sure the city would love to pay the firefighters $10 an hour and the cops $12 an hour, but then we would end up with a revolving door of public safety personnel who would only stay long enough to find a different job. You can call bull**** all day if you want, but the fact of the matter is, you both admittedly and obviously have no idea what it's like to work in a union public safety department in Ohio, yet you continue to attack those of us who do.

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Again, if there is no threat of strike, then it makes it pretty pointless to have a union in place, doesn't it? I mean, what's to lose for a city or agency to tell you to go get boned when you refuse to accept a pay cut or demand a pay increase? Somethings got to give. The entitlement I hear in some of your responses makes the same argument the welfare rats are always making. That because of their situation, they are "OWED" something.
It's been explained to you several times in this thread, so I honestly don't know why I'm wasting my effort to explain it again. The city and the union are both equally responsible for negotiations of contracts. Neither side can make absurd demands, because the other side will refuse, and it will go to a third party independent arbitrator who will make a binding decision. Even if both sides really don't like the decision the arbitrator makes, tough, it's made and now it's in the contract.

But wages and benefits are about 5% of what goes into being in a union. Much of it is about safe equipment, work hours that aren't obscene, and keeping both sides accountable for their actions. Again, this has been explained to you several times in this thread, please try and let it soak in for once.

If you think I sound entitled because I find it absurd that I should be forced to take a 20% paycut that WON'T lead to any decrease in taxes, all while the governor continues to give multi-million dollar checks to major corporations, then I guess I'm entitled. I see this for what it is, the rich and powerful taking money from the middle class to give to other rich and powerful people. I've sacrificed quite a bit for the citizens of this state, and I don't like to be spit on.

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Sorry guys.
No you're not, you're nothing more than a rabble rouser. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, yet all you want to do is perpetuate right-wing/tea party myth and propaganda, on top of that you don't even live in Ohio, you don't work in a Union shop, and your perspective is from the outside looking in. I'm sorry you feel like the union boned you back in the day, but that doesn't mean we need anyone else, especially a "brother" officer, campaigning against us, especially when they lack any of the facts.
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:29   #58
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Originally Posted by Kadetklapp View Post
I'm going to say this- I'm not familiar with Ohio, although I know it's politics lean heavily to the left and have for years.

Again, I will not support unions in public sector workforce. If you don't like the wage, the benefits, or the retirement, then quit. I won't for a minute believe that municipalities "appreciate" and "benefit" from union involvement in workforce disputes because it "levels" the playing field and makes everyone happy and hug. I call bull**** on that.

Again, if there is no threat of strike, then it makes it pretty pointless to have a union in place, doesn't it? I mean, what's to lose for a city or agency to tell you to go get boned when you refuse to accept a pay cut or demand a pay increase? Somethings got to give. The entitlement I hear in some of your responses makes the same argument the welfare rats are always making. That because of their situation, they are "OWED" something.

Sorry guys.
Its good to see you don't have a biased opinion on the issue. One wonders how you would.feel, had the FOP not treated you and your family the way they did.


Personally, I take offense at your suggestion that we (union members) are somehow on the same level as welfare receipents. I earn my check, thank you very much. Spending the day around a few hundred criminals who may or may not decide to assault you just because you wear a uniform isn't quite the same, and you know it. God forbid we actually use a mechanism to IMPROVE our working conditions. Do you have a clue.as to how miserable life is under a boss who not only doesn't like his emplyees being sworn officers, he does everything he can to try and make life hard for them? Were it not for our union contract, well....you'd likely have a private company running the jail. And we all know how well those usually turn out.

See, working in a jail isn't like working the streets. There's not always.some little.young squirrelly idiot.willing to do what we do for little pay and fewer benefits. I've seen many of my coworkers leave my agency and go work for half the pay for some smaller agency, just so they could be he "real police". Many end up bouncing from one department to another, following your "if you don't like it, quit" philosophy. That's not good for the.officer, for the agency, or for the community they serve. Isn't retaining officers important? Shouldn't hiring good people and KEEPING them be the priority here?

Let's contrast a couple of local.agencies here -

Agency #1 is the big dog on the block. Merged department, consisting of around 1200 sworn. They got a crappy mayor who.was anti-public safety and hired a chief that did exactly what he.was told to do. This.resulted in several hundred folks leaving. Many retired, many went to different agencies. Several centuries worth of LE experience was lost and replaced with little children who (relatively speaking) are barely.out of puberty. I've got 11 years on, and that's more than half of the.department in question. What's worse - the mayor.and chief consistently violated the.union contract, costing the taxpayers.a LOT of money. The mayor was even sued by the sheriff, due to trying to take.tax money.that belonged to the sheriff by law.

So, the end result is a department that has.crappy morale, bled out experienced officers due to crappy management, and can't hire enough people to even begin to replace the losses. When I applied for the departments prior to merger, the county police didn't even hire every year. They didn't need to. And the city police - I did a hiring process that had over 1100 people fghting for 25 jobs. Now, they can't get anything remotely like that....

And that's with a union that protects them. How much worse would.things.be without the union? Is.the community better served by having a department that treats its people like crap, and forces.them to leave? Im.hoping you don't really think.the answer is yes..

Now the other side.of the coin. There exists in this county, two.smaller agencies. Both are union, both are highly paid agencies. Both treat their employees well, offer good benefits in addition to the pay. Rarely does anyone leave these departments, except for retirement...which seems to happen after 25+ years or so (in a 20 and out system).

Guess which departments have lists a mile.long for.lateral transfers? Hell, one guy I know used to work for Dukeboys agency, and made the daily drive from Lexington (75 miles) because it was worth it.

Now, the agencies above are all union shops. I've told you about how things are with a hostile boss in place. The union is the ONLY thing keeping officers at the larger agency. Were it not for the protections given by contract, id bet half the people.currently at that agency would leave. Given that so many DID leave, even WITH union protection...I bet im.not far off the mark. How does that serve.the community, KK?

You can't expect things to be all rosey and that your bosses will do the right thing. That what a union contract is for - to.ensure.that you don't get hammered just because you have an unfriendly boss. If you'd rather worknfor an agency like that, its your prerogative. Just don't start the insults by comparing those of us who'd prefer a little protection in our working conditions to ghetto rats that don't lift a finger to earn any honest money.

With you comments, you've insulted me, my wife, every single officer in my county, and thousands more. All because your local FOP pisses you off. Nice.
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Old 04-27-2011, 08:23   #59
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Its good to see you don't have a biased opinion on the issue. One wonders how you would.feel, had the FOP not treated you and your family the way they did.

blah blah blah

With you comments, you've insulted me, my wife, every single officer in my county, and thousands more. All because your local FOP pisses you off. Nice.
I was in a good mood today, but you both took it out of me.

Unions are a good slice of what is wrong with America today.

You aren't going to change my mind.

I am a citizen before I am a cop.

I'm terribly sorry you aren't.

I worked in jails, I've worked the road. I've never seen fit for a union to come in and I know for a fact they would have only made things worse. A union places a burden on the taxpayer that cannot be supported. Look at Detroit, NYC, and other places.

Not sure why firemanmike is even on a gun board with his typical leftist mindset. It's disturbing to me actually.
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Old 04-27-2011, 08:27   #60
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Not sure why firemanmike is even on a gun board with his typical leftist mindset. It's disturbing to me actually.


Just so you know, I've been a registered republican since I turned 18. My right wing views haven't changed, what has changed is that the right wing has gone to the extreme right, and left us in the dust. Make no mistake, the current right wing cares nothing about anyone who isn't rich.
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Old 04-27-2011, 08:32   #61
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Just so you know, I've been a registered republican since I turned 18. My right wing views haven't changed, what has changed is that the right wing has gone to the extreme right, and left us in the dust. Make no mistake, the current right wing cares nothing about anyone who isn't rich.
BS. You cannot tell me you are "right wing" when you are coming here rambling leftist propaganda about how poorly the teacher is treated and equal pay for blah blah blah. BULL.

BTW, I worked in UAW shop when I was in college working for the Indiana Department of Transportation. What a JOKE. No collective bargaining, and not much of anything else. Weak representation, horrid safety issues, the list goes on. They were more than willing to take my bi-weekly contribution though. Oh, all this under a DemocRAT governor.
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Old 04-27-2011, 08:35   #62
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BS. You cannot tell me you are "right wing" when you are coming here rambling leftist propaganda about how poorly the teacher is treated and equal pay for blah blah blah. BULL.

BTW, I worked in UAW shop when I was in college working for the Indiana Department of Transportation. What a JOKE. No collective bargaining, and not much of anything else. Weak representation, horrid safety issues, the list goes on. They were more than willing to take my bi-weekly contribution though. Oh, all this under a DemocRAT governor.
Yep, now you're comparing private sector unions to us..

I'm done with you.
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Old 04-27-2011, 08:44   #63
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Yep, now you're comparing private sector unions to us..

I'm done with you.
I'm heartbroken.
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Old 04-27-2011, 08:45   #64
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Oh, and the last time I checked, INDOT is a public service agency.
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Founded in 1990 as a joint local of the UAW and AFT (American Federation of Teachers), Local 9212 represents 8,500 Indiana state employees in 43 agencies. These include the Indiana Department of Transportation, the Family and Social Services Administration, the Department of Correction and the Department of Natural Resources. Members work in a variety of occupations including skilled trades, correctional officers, police, firefighters, health care and telecommunications.

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Old 04-27-2011, 09:24   #65
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It's good to see you're so objective, and don't let how the local FOP lodge treated you affect that objectivity.

Tell ya what - since you like insulting people so much, let's do this:

You worked for a jail, right? What, some backwoods little hick town that had maybe 40 beds filled on a busy week? I work for the largest jail in my state, with an inmate population greater than most of the towns in your county. Think things might be a little different in the big city, than in the sticks? Think that maybe an agency of 450+ sworn officer has some problems that don't really occur when you have 10 employees or so?

Then, you insult my wife's agency - she works for the merged department here. I'd be willing to bet a decent amount of cash that she has more officers on here shifdt, in her division, than your entire agency has total. Ever think that life works differently with an agency that has over 1200 sworn officers?

I've listed numerous issues that the union HAS made better. Of course, you drank the Kool Aid, and won't even consider that we might be correct. Your opinion is that, if you don't like it - leave. And that betters the profession and helps protect the community better how? Let's see - what agency gets the best people -

Agency #1 - No union protection. Retirement plan sucks, benefits suck, working conditions are deplorable. Officers are subject to the whims of the chief, and the suckasses get the good assignments/off days/vacation picks. The rest of the department gets the crumbs that are left. Mandatory OT isn't handed out fairly, it's given to whomever it on the **** list that day. That is, unless a suckass didn't want it, in which case, they got it.

Agency #2 - Collective bargaining exists. Good retirement plan, pay and bennies are decent. No one is getting rich, but you ain't making $10/hour risking your life for the hood rats on your beat, either. OT, if it exists, is awarded by seniority amongst the area where it's available. If needed, a forced OT list is kept, and officers are rotated thru it. Mandated OT is limited to 16 hours per week, whereas BEFORE the union, it was anywhere from 24-32 hours per week.


Hmmm....where would most folks WANT to work? Is public safety enhanced by the actions of Agency #2, or does the community suffer? Exactly HOW does the community suffer by Agency #2 having better working conditions that don't actually COST the taxpayer anything, but contribute towards a happier workforce?

Since you mentioned a few bigger cities like NYC - let's get ChiefWPD and Seanmac45 in here. They both retired from NYPD as command level officers. I'd be willing to bet they wouldn't have worked at NYPD without a union.

Your problem is twofold -

First, you believe that a department should be able to treat staff anyway they want, and that this is allowable - even encouraged. "If you don't like it, leave". As I explained in a prior post, that was done with LMPD. The community lost hundreds of officers that had 25+ years on...literally centuries, and I'm not exaggerating, of experience was lost with this attitude. How in the holy hell can you even begin to believe this is a GOOD thing for the taxpayers, the community, or the profession? This occupation relies on the more experienced officers training the new ones, and helping them along in their careers. When there are no more experienced ones, what happens? My wife has a decade on this job - she's one of the most senior people in her platoon, on day shift. Eight years ago, being on dayshift with ONLY ten years on was virtually unheard of - but, due to the treatment of this agency by both the mayor and chief (AND WITH UNION PROTECTION, NO LESS), they still bailed in record numbers. So much so, the department is hiring retarded idiots these days, and still can't keep up with the attrition rate.

So, your "leave it if you don't like it" option is a big FAIL for the agency, for the officers, for the community, and for the profession. To think otherwise is to be blind to the reality of this job....and, I'm as right-wing as they get. REgistered Republican, think .gov should back the hell out of most things, etc, etc.

I don't need to justify my political beliefs to you, though. I have real life experience in working for an agency that would run roughshod over its employees, were it not for a union.

Perhaps you missed it in my last post - we had to file a class action grievance on behalf of ALL of the 450+ members of my union/agency, in order to force the administration to follow basic OSHA standards. Due to cost issues, the agency REFUSED to buy latex gloves for officers that were protective aganist bloodborne pathogens. Not only is this a contractual violation (they're required to issue PPE), but it's an OSHA mandate. Looked that one up, before I filed a grievance that got the ball rolling on the whole issue.

Seriously - they gave us food service quality gloves to deal with inmates that are HIV/Hep/MRSA/God only knows what positive. These inmates, believe it or not, like to fight. WIth each other, and with us. Blood gets everywhere at times - I've personally seen a fight that ended in an inmate with a good head wound and blood all over the floor and the officers that he assaulted. And the agency won't buy us gloves to protect us from the diseases these filthy scum contract.

SO, is the community better served by the filing of a grievance that costs no money...or, by calling OSHA and filing a formal complaint that literally generates a federal investigation that would result in fines for the department (AKA - taxpayer)?

To make matter worse - the sheriff department staffs court holds in our building for transportation of the inmates to court and back. Our agency bought the deputies good gloves, but wouldn't give them to us. Go figure.

So, I've been there - done that. You? Not so much. But, you DO like to swallow the party line blindly.

Your second problem -

You've allowed your disgust and dislike of your local lodge to affect your outlook on ALL public safety unions. NIce way to be objective there, Junior. Let go of the hate, and try to make things better - or, at the least, don't hate those of us who DO try to make life better.

As for your UAW comment - I was a Teamster when I first started. They got the boot a few years ago in favor of the FOP. That's because the Teamsters are run by worthless scum who make money off the backs of their employees and sell them out for nothing. Agan, been there - done that. The FOP is a different animal. By cops, for cops.


And hey - if you'd prefer to work in an agency that treats you poorly, go ahead. I know more than one guy that does - and *****es about it constantly. Just don't begrudge those of us that actually put time and effort into making things better. And the FOP does that. If you can't see it, that sucks for you. It would be nice to lay off the insults, though. We all do the same job - we can disagree nicely about having unions assist us.

Or, you could be like the rest of the clowns on here - get something in your head that you know nothing about, and preach it as gospel. Your call. But, being that you DON'T work in an FOP agency, never have, and have a personal vendetta against them - your opinion of them is much like the opinion of a certain few GNG's and police work. Irrelevant and uninformed.
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:27   #66
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I'll tell ya what, your rant is more than I'm willing to read. I saw you blow off something about a hick town and a 40 bed jail. Ya, it was a 52 bed jail with 125 inmates in it.

I'm not going to read your diatribe. I don't know your wife well enough to insult her by the way. Pics?

PS- You must have failed to read the part where I worked in a public service union shop. It sucked. No redeeming qualities whatsoever. Next.

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Old 04-27-2011, 09:37   #67
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i can tell you because ive worked for both unionized large agency and non-union small agency.

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Agency #1 - No union protection. Retirement plan sucks, benefits suck, working conditions are deplorable. Officers are subject to the whims of the chief, and the suckasses get the good assignments/off days/vacation picks. The rest of the department gets the crumbs that are left. Mandatory OT isn't handed out fairly, it's given to whomever it on the **** list that day. That is, unless a suckass didn't want it, in which case, they got it.

Agency #2 - Collective bargaining exists. Good retirement plan, pay and bennies are decent. No one is getting rich, but you ain't making $10/hour risking your life for the hood rats on your beat, either. OT, if it exists, is awarded by seniority amongst the area where it's available. If needed, a forced OT list is kept, and officers are rotated thru it. Mandated OT is limited to 16 hours per week, whereas BEFORE the union, it was anywhere from 24-32 hours per week.
all of this is true.

small non-union agencies are just training grounds. turn over is high, burn out is high, moral is low, efficiency is low, attitudes are marginal, city hall doesnt care, family is a distance second, risk far out paces the rewards....professionalism is lower....
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:37   #68
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Originally Posted by Kadetklapp View Post
I'll tell ya what, your rant is more than I'm willing to read. I saw you blow off something about a hick town and a 40 bed jail. Ya, it was a 52 bed jail with 125 inmates in it.

I'm not going to read your diatribe. I don't know your wife well enough to insult her by the way. Pics?

PS- You must have failed to read the part where I worked in a public service union shop. It sucked. No redeeming qualities whatsoever. Next.
Stay classy with the pics comment.

And, I addressed your experience with the UAW. We were Teamsters, and they sucked. No questions about it. That's why they got the boot, and we voted in the FOP. Different animal entirely.
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:46   #69
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Stay classy with the pics comment.

And, I addressed your experience with the UAW. We were Teamsters, and they sucked. No questions about it. That's why they got the boot, and we voted in the FOP. Different animal entirely.
Again, we can't get the FOP to even consider true representation for 75% of my full-time agencies employees. If national or even state would nut up and start yanking local leadership, this could change but they can't and they wont.

I would appreciate the FOP union in my AO for ONE thing, and that would be legal protection against both scumbag lawsuits and crazy sheriffs/elected officials. But I know in my state, being an at-will employee that's not going to happen.

Do I think less of you guys who are in a union shop as cops? No, but what gives you the right to think of me less since I'm not? In our experience, unions serve to protect dim-witted and dangerous employees, stir up discontent and sadness, and suck money from paychecks. Not what we want around here.

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Old 04-27-2011, 09:57   #70
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Again, we can't get the FOP to even consider true representation for 75% of my full-time agencies employees. If national or even state would nut up and start yanking local leadership, this could change but they can't and they wont.

I would appreciate the FOP union in my AO for ONE thing, and that would be legal protection against both scumbag lawsuits and crazy sheriffs/elected officials. But I know in my state, I don't have a right to work, so that's not going to happen.
Do I think less of you guys who are in a union shop as cops? No, but what gives you the right to think of me less since I'm not? In our experience, unions serve to protect dim-witted and dangerous employees, stir up discontent and sadness, and suck money from paychecks. Not what we want around here.
bro, a right to work state means that you dont have to join a union if one is place to work at a specific job.

what youre talking about is an "at will" employee.
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Old 04-27-2011, 10:02   #71
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bro, a right to work state means that you dont have to join a union if one is place to work at a specific job.

what youre talking about is an "at will" employee.
You are correct. I misspoke, er, typed.
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Old 04-27-2011, 10:13   #72
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Can we all just agree that there are good unions and bad unions and remain friends?

I would absolutely love to be union protected right now, but two years ago, the thought never crossed my mind. Had we been union protected then, the BS that has transpired to make me desire protection now probably would never have happened.

I see the unions a lot of the time like I see the NRA. Their politicing can be extreme, but often times you have to demand the extreme to settle on the reasonable.
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Old 04-27-2011, 10:20   #73
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I see the unions a lot of the time like I see the NRA. Their politicing can be extreme, but often times you have to demand the extreme to settle on the reasonable.
this is so true....ask for the moon in order to get an 8' cieling....

of course they do the opposite, asking for a 10% pay cut and settle for a pay freeze....
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Old 04-27-2011, 17:05   #74
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Originally Posted by Kadetklapp View Post
Again, we can't get the FOP to even consider true representation for 75% of my full-time agencies employees. If national or even state would nut up and start yanking local leadership, this could change but they can't and they wont.

I would appreciate the FOP union in my AO for ONE thing, and that would be legal protection against both scumbag lawsuits and crazy sheriffs/elected officials. But I know in my state, being an at-will employee that's not going to happen.

Do I think less of you guys who are in a union shop as cops? No, but what gives you the right to think of me less since I'm not? In our experience, unions serve to protect dim-witted and dangerous employees, stir up discontent and sadness, and suck money from paychecks. Not what we want around here.
I don't think less of you. On the contrary, I would be willing to HELP you get a lodge in your area by using whatever contacts I have.

I just don't appreciate being compared to welfare clowns and being told that I'm "entitled", just because I know how much a union is needed within my department. If you want or have to work a public safety job that isn't covered by collective.bargaining - I understand. If you have the "wrong" union for your employment type, and they're not.helping you at all....I get it. Been down that road. But, the FOP listens. They really do - corrections has made huge gains within the FOP as far as acceptance goes, and my lodge is the 3rd largest in the state, overall. We are quickly becoming a force to be reckoned with, instead of some bunch of yahoo jail guard wannabe types.

Of course, the union is only.worth what the leadership and memwbers make it....for the first couple.of years here, that wasn't a lot. Things have changed, and we're doing a LOT better.

If you really DO want some help getting in a lodge, or starting one, let me know. I'll get you whatever help I can.
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Old 04-27-2011, 18:14   #75
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While this topic has certainly swayed to wage, and benefits, IMHO this is not the paramount importance of the right to unionize for LEO's and Firefighters.

The bigger issue is to have a safety net so that you are not an at-will employee. There are agencies out there that would have no issue whatsoever in terminating an officer for an OIS, or anything that has been spun in the media.

In this forum, we constantly look at examples of this. I would say that for the most part we try to write the thread titles to reflect the incident in a crass manner. Some are blatant attempts to sway public opinion instead of reporting the facts, some are certainly below what we would generally consider professional/legal conduct.

In the private sector, it is relatively easy to find a new job as compared to being hired as a full time LEO or Firefighter. Look at the application process.

Additionally, in our profession it is very easy to become blackballed by an agency that provides unofficial/undocumented references. An HR lawsuit waiting to happen, but still difficult to prove. It certainly may be possible to be employable in another field, but I have not done the things I have done to be employable in another field, I did them to become a better cop.

BTW Kadetklapp, you have repeatedly equated union with right to strike. To strike is very costly for both sides, off the table for sworn personnel in Ohio anyway, and unethical for public safety anyways. That is why arbitration was set up, so that issues at an impasse could be addressed in a dignified manner by an impartial third party.
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