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Old 04-27-2011, 08:32   #61
Kadetklapp
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Originally Posted by FiremanMike View Post


Just so you know, I've been a registered republican since I turned 18. My right wing views haven't changed, what has changed is that the right wing has gone to the extreme right, and left us in the dust. Make no mistake, the current right wing cares nothing about anyone who isn't rich.
BS. You cannot tell me you are "right wing" when you are coming here rambling leftist propaganda about how poorly the teacher is treated and equal pay for blah blah blah. BULL.

BTW, I worked in UAW shop when I was in college working for the Indiana Department of Transportation. What a JOKE. No collective bargaining, and not much of anything else. Weak representation, horrid safety issues, the list goes on. They were more than willing to take my bi-weekly contribution though. Oh, all this under a DemocRAT governor.
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Old 04-27-2011, 08:35   #62
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Originally Posted by Kadetklapp View Post
BS. You cannot tell me you are "right wing" when you are coming here rambling leftist propaganda about how poorly the teacher is treated and equal pay for blah blah blah. BULL.

BTW, I worked in UAW shop when I was in college working for the Indiana Department of Transportation. What a JOKE. No collective bargaining, and not much of anything else. Weak representation, horrid safety issues, the list goes on. They were more than willing to take my bi-weekly contribution though. Oh, all this under a DemocRAT governor.
Yep, now you're comparing private sector unions to us..

I'm done with you.
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Old 04-27-2011, 08:44   #63
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Yep, now you're comparing private sector unions to us..

I'm done with you.
I'm heartbroken.
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Old 04-27-2011, 08:45   #64
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Oh, and the last time I checked, INDOT is a public service agency.
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Founded in 1990 as a joint local of the UAW and AFT (American Federation of Teachers), Local 9212 represents 8,500 Indiana state employees in 43 agencies. These include the Indiana Department of Transportation, the Family and Social Services Administration, the Department of Correction and the Department of Natural Resources. Members work in a variety of occupations including skilled trades, correctional officers, police, firefighters, health care and telecommunications.

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Old 04-27-2011, 09:24   #65
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It's good to see you're so objective, and don't let how the local FOP lodge treated you affect that objectivity.

Tell ya what - since you like insulting people so much, let's do this:

You worked for a jail, right? What, some backwoods little hick town that had maybe 40 beds filled on a busy week? I work for the largest jail in my state, with an inmate population greater than most of the towns in your county. Think things might be a little different in the big city, than in the sticks? Think that maybe an agency of 450+ sworn officer has some problems that don't really occur when you have 10 employees or so?

Then, you insult my wife's agency - she works for the merged department here. I'd be willing to bet a decent amount of cash that she has more officers on here shifdt, in her division, than your entire agency has total. Ever think that life works differently with an agency that has over 1200 sworn officers?

I've listed numerous issues that the union HAS made better. Of course, you drank the Kool Aid, and won't even consider that we might be correct. Your opinion is that, if you don't like it - leave. And that betters the profession and helps protect the community better how? Let's see - what agency gets the best people -

Agency #1 - No union protection. Retirement plan sucks, benefits suck, working conditions are deplorable. Officers are subject to the whims of the chief, and the suckasses get the good assignments/off days/vacation picks. The rest of the department gets the crumbs that are left. Mandatory OT isn't handed out fairly, it's given to whomever it on the **** list that day. That is, unless a suckass didn't want it, in which case, they got it.

Agency #2 - Collective bargaining exists. Good retirement plan, pay and bennies are decent. No one is getting rich, but you ain't making $10/hour risking your life for the hood rats on your beat, either. OT, if it exists, is awarded by seniority amongst the area where it's available. If needed, a forced OT list is kept, and officers are rotated thru it. Mandated OT is limited to 16 hours per week, whereas BEFORE the union, it was anywhere from 24-32 hours per week.


Hmmm....where would most folks WANT to work? Is public safety enhanced by the actions of Agency #2, or does the community suffer? Exactly HOW does the community suffer by Agency #2 having better working conditions that don't actually COST the taxpayer anything, but contribute towards a happier workforce?

Since you mentioned a few bigger cities like NYC - let's get ChiefWPD and Seanmac45 in here. They both retired from NYPD as command level officers. I'd be willing to bet they wouldn't have worked at NYPD without a union.

Your problem is twofold -

First, you believe that a department should be able to treat staff anyway they want, and that this is allowable - even encouraged. "If you don't like it, leave". As I explained in a prior post, that was done with LMPD. The community lost hundreds of officers that had 25+ years on...literally centuries, and I'm not exaggerating, of experience was lost with this attitude. How in the holy hell can you even begin to believe this is a GOOD thing for the taxpayers, the community, or the profession? This occupation relies on the more experienced officers training the new ones, and helping them along in their careers. When there are no more experienced ones, what happens? My wife has a decade on this job - she's one of the most senior people in her platoon, on day shift. Eight years ago, being on dayshift with ONLY ten years on was virtually unheard of - but, due to the treatment of this agency by both the mayor and chief (AND WITH UNION PROTECTION, NO LESS), they still bailed in record numbers. So much so, the department is hiring retarded idiots these days, and still can't keep up with the attrition rate.

So, your "leave it if you don't like it" option is a big FAIL for the agency, for the officers, for the community, and for the profession. To think otherwise is to be blind to the reality of this job....and, I'm as right-wing as they get. REgistered Republican, think .gov should back the hell out of most things, etc, etc.

I don't need to justify my political beliefs to you, though. I have real life experience in working for an agency that would run roughshod over its employees, were it not for a union.

Perhaps you missed it in my last post - we had to file a class action grievance on behalf of ALL of the 450+ members of my union/agency, in order to force the administration to follow basic OSHA standards. Due to cost issues, the agency REFUSED to buy latex gloves for officers that were protective aganist bloodborne pathogens. Not only is this a contractual violation (they're required to issue PPE), but it's an OSHA mandate. Looked that one up, before I filed a grievance that got the ball rolling on the whole issue.

Seriously - they gave us food service quality gloves to deal with inmates that are HIV/Hep/MRSA/God only knows what positive. These inmates, believe it or not, like to fight. WIth each other, and with us. Blood gets everywhere at times - I've personally seen a fight that ended in an inmate with a good head wound and blood all over the floor and the officers that he assaulted. And the agency won't buy us gloves to protect us from the diseases these filthy scum contract.

SO, is the community better served by the filing of a grievance that costs no money...or, by calling OSHA and filing a formal complaint that literally generates a federal investigation that would result in fines for the department (AKA - taxpayer)?

To make matter worse - the sheriff department staffs court holds in our building for transportation of the inmates to court and back. Our agency bought the deputies good gloves, but wouldn't give them to us. Go figure.

So, I've been there - done that. You? Not so much. But, you DO like to swallow the party line blindly.

Your second problem -

You've allowed your disgust and dislike of your local lodge to affect your outlook on ALL public safety unions. NIce way to be objective there, Junior. Let go of the hate, and try to make things better - or, at the least, don't hate those of us who DO try to make life better.

As for your UAW comment - I was a Teamster when I first started. They got the boot a few years ago in favor of the FOP. That's because the Teamsters are run by worthless scum who make money off the backs of their employees and sell them out for nothing. Agan, been there - done that. The FOP is a different animal. By cops, for cops.


And hey - if you'd prefer to work in an agency that treats you poorly, go ahead. I know more than one guy that does - and *****es about it constantly. Just don't begrudge those of us that actually put time and effort into making things better. And the FOP does that. If you can't see it, that sucks for you. It would be nice to lay off the insults, though. We all do the same job - we can disagree nicely about having unions assist us.

Or, you could be like the rest of the clowns on here - get something in your head that you know nothing about, and preach it as gospel. Your call. But, being that you DON'T work in an FOP agency, never have, and have a personal vendetta against them - your opinion of them is much like the opinion of a certain few GNG's and police work. Irrelevant and uninformed.
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:27   #66
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I'll tell ya what, your rant is more than I'm willing to read. I saw you blow off something about a hick town and a 40 bed jail. Ya, it was a 52 bed jail with 125 inmates in it.

I'm not going to read your diatribe. I don't know your wife well enough to insult her by the way. Pics?

PS- You must have failed to read the part where I worked in a public service union shop. It sucked. No redeeming qualities whatsoever. Next.

Last edited by Kadetklapp; 04-27-2011 at 09:28..
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:37   #67
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i can tell you because ive worked for both unionized large agency and non-union small agency.

Quote:
Agency #1 - No union protection. Retirement plan sucks, benefits suck, working conditions are deplorable. Officers are subject to the whims of the chief, and the suckasses get the good assignments/off days/vacation picks. The rest of the department gets the crumbs that are left. Mandatory OT isn't handed out fairly, it's given to whomever it on the **** list that day. That is, unless a suckass didn't want it, in which case, they got it.

Agency #2 - Collective bargaining exists. Good retirement plan, pay and bennies are decent. No one is getting rich, but you ain't making $10/hour risking your life for the hood rats on your beat, either. OT, if it exists, is awarded by seniority amongst the area where it's available. If needed, a forced OT list is kept, and officers are rotated thru it. Mandated OT is limited to 16 hours per week, whereas BEFORE the union, it was anywhere from 24-32 hours per week.
all of this is true.

small non-union agencies are just training grounds. turn over is high, burn out is high, moral is low, efficiency is low, attitudes are marginal, city hall doesnt care, family is a distance second, risk far out paces the rewards....professionalism is lower....
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:37   #68
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Originally Posted by Kadetklapp View Post
I'll tell ya what, your rant is more than I'm willing to read. I saw you blow off something about a hick town and a 40 bed jail. Ya, it was a 52 bed jail with 125 inmates in it.

I'm not going to read your diatribe. I don't know your wife well enough to insult her by the way. Pics?

PS- You must have failed to read the part where I worked in a public service union shop. It sucked. No redeeming qualities whatsoever. Next.
Stay classy with the pics comment.

And, I addressed your experience with the UAW. We were Teamsters, and they sucked. No questions about it. That's why they got the boot, and we voted in the FOP. Different animal entirely.
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:46   #69
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Stay classy with the pics comment.

And, I addressed your experience with the UAW. We were Teamsters, and they sucked. No questions about it. That's why they got the boot, and we voted in the FOP. Different animal entirely.
Again, we can't get the FOP to even consider true representation for 75% of my full-time agencies employees. If national or even state would nut up and start yanking local leadership, this could change but they can't and they wont.

I would appreciate the FOP union in my AO for ONE thing, and that would be legal protection against both scumbag lawsuits and crazy sheriffs/elected officials. But I know in my state, being an at-will employee that's not going to happen.

Do I think less of you guys who are in a union shop as cops? No, but what gives you the right to think of me less since I'm not? In our experience, unions serve to protect dim-witted and dangerous employees, stir up discontent and sadness, and suck money from paychecks. Not what we want around here.

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Old 04-27-2011, 09:57   #70
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Again, we can't get the FOP to even consider true representation for 75% of my full-time agencies employees. If national or even state would nut up and start yanking local leadership, this could change but they can't and they wont.

I would appreciate the FOP union in my AO for ONE thing, and that would be legal protection against both scumbag lawsuits and crazy sheriffs/elected officials. But I know in my state, I don't have a right to work, so that's not going to happen.
Do I think less of you guys who are in a union shop as cops? No, but what gives you the right to think of me less since I'm not? In our experience, unions serve to protect dim-witted and dangerous employees, stir up discontent and sadness, and suck money from paychecks. Not what we want around here.
bro, a right to work state means that you dont have to join a union if one is place to work at a specific job.

what youre talking about is an "at will" employee.
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Old 04-27-2011, 10:02   #71
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bro, a right to work state means that you dont have to join a union if one is place to work at a specific job.

what youre talking about is an "at will" employee.
You are correct. I misspoke, er, typed.
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Old 04-27-2011, 10:13   #72
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Can we all just agree that there are good unions and bad unions and remain friends?

I would absolutely love to be union protected right now, but two years ago, the thought never crossed my mind. Had we been union protected then, the BS that has transpired to make me desire protection now probably would never have happened.

I see the unions a lot of the time like I see the NRA. Their politicing can be extreme, but often times you have to demand the extreme to settle on the reasonable.
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Old 04-27-2011, 10:20   #73
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I see the unions a lot of the time like I see the NRA. Their politicing can be extreme, but often times you have to demand the extreme to settle on the reasonable.
this is so true....ask for the moon in order to get an 8' cieling....

of course they do the opposite, asking for a 10% pay cut and settle for a pay freeze....
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Old 04-27-2011, 17:05   #74
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Again, we can't get the FOP to even consider true representation for 75% of my full-time agencies employees. If national or even state would nut up and start yanking local leadership, this could change but they can't and they wont.

I would appreciate the FOP union in my AO for ONE thing, and that would be legal protection against both scumbag lawsuits and crazy sheriffs/elected officials. But I know in my state, being an at-will employee that's not going to happen.

Do I think less of you guys who are in a union shop as cops? No, but what gives you the right to think of me less since I'm not? In our experience, unions serve to protect dim-witted and dangerous employees, stir up discontent and sadness, and suck money from paychecks. Not what we want around here.
I don't think less of you. On the contrary, I would be willing to HELP you get a lodge in your area by using whatever contacts I have.

I just don't appreciate being compared to welfare clowns and being told that I'm "entitled", just because I know how much a union is needed within my department. If you want or have to work a public safety job that isn't covered by collective.bargaining - I understand. If you have the "wrong" union for your employment type, and they're not.helping you at all....I get it. Been down that road. But, the FOP listens. They really do - corrections has made huge gains within the FOP as far as acceptance goes, and my lodge is the 3rd largest in the state, overall. We are quickly becoming a force to be reckoned with, instead of some bunch of yahoo jail guard wannabe types.

Of course, the union is only.worth what the leadership and memwbers make it....for the first couple.of years here, that wasn't a lot. Things have changed, and we're doing a LOT better.

If you really DO want some help getting in a lodge, or starting one, let me know. I'll get you whatever help I can.
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Old 04-27-2011, 18:14   #75
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While this topic has certainly swayed to wage, and benefits, IMHO this is not the paramount importance of the right to unionize for LEO's and Firefighters.

The bigger issue is to have a safety net so that you are not an at-will employee. There are agencies out there that would have no issue whatsoever in terminating an officer for an OIS, or anything that has been spun in the media.

In this forum, we constantly look at examples of this. I would say that for the most part we try to write the thread titles to reflect the incident in a crass manner. Some are blatant attempts to sway public opinion instead of reporting the facts, some are certainly below what we would generally consider professional/legal conduct.

In the private sector, it is relatively easy to find a new job as compared to being hired as a full time LEO or Firefighter. Look at the application process.

Additionally, in our profession it is very easy to become blackballed by an agency that provides unofficial/undocumented references. An HR lawsuit waiting to happen, but still difficult to prove. It certainly may be possible to be employable in another field, but I have not done the things I have done to be employable in another field, I did them to become a better cop.

BTW Kadetklapp, you have repeatedly equated union with right to strike. To strike is very costly for both sides, off the table for sworn personnel in Ohio anyway, and unethical for public safety anyways. That is why arbitration was set up, so that issues at an impasse could be addressed in a dignified manner by an impartial third party.
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Old 04-27-2011, 19:19   #76
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We don't even have binding arbitration. If we reach an impasse we can go to fact finding and mediation, but the mediator's recommendation isn't binding on either party. Somehow we still make it work.

Razdog's hit the main point of collective bargaining again: The pay and benefits are nowhere near the most important things.

Look at this way: In a police department you have people sworn to uphold the rule of law. Should those people's performance of their job duty be more or less free from political interference?
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Old 04-27-2011, 19:38   #77
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It's g

You worked for a jail, right? What, some backwoods little hick town that had maybe 40 beds filled on a busy week? I work for the largest jail in my state, with an inmate population greater than most of the towns in your county. Think things might be a little different in the big city, than in the sticks? Think that maybe an agency of 450+ sworn officer has some problems that don't really occur when you have 10 employees or so?
Oh noes.................the dreaded my peepee is bigger than your peepee argument.

Oh before you go all big city popo on me, we were FOP, until we realized they don't do much except take $$$ and we went IBPO. 450 officers would staff 3 of our 6 precincts. We were County PD, also had County SO total well over 2000 sworn.

Guess what....there is no more $$$$, cuts and I mean painful cuts are coming. I've been retired since 2004, thought I had it made, insurance went from 300.00 mo to 800.00 month (my part) it ain't over yet. Why do public sector unions think they don't have to suffer? We all will.
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Old 04-27-2011, 20:09   #78
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I just heard that the Democrats in Mass. just voted to cut the collective bargaining rights of the public sector employees. The public sector unions are extremely pissed off. They thought that they had spent enough to keep themselves safe.

Guess not.
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Old 04-28-2011, 05:41   #79
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Yes..every working man must suffer so the welfare checks can continue to roll out...god forbid that someone has to get a job or starve when they can just hose those who actually work instead...
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Old 04-28-2011, 14:00   #80
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Hay Kadet Klapp, I just wanted to tell you that I agree with a good bit of your posts in this thread. I think you summed up a good bit of the way I feel.
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