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Old 04-13-2011, 11:44   #1
carguy2244
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Tite group problem

I've been loading 4.8 grains TG/115 grain Delta plated 9mm/1.169 OAL.
Shot very well in my Glocks.

Then I was too busy to load for several months (Dillon Square Deal). I loaded 200 rounds the other night. Afterwards, to be certain the rounds were good to shoot, I measured 3 powder charges, and to my SHOCK, 3 loads weighed 15.2 grains. So my loads somehow went from 4.8 to 5.1 grains, which is higher than than the stated max load for Tite Group with 9mm 115gr jacketed bullets.
Can these cartridges be used, or do they need to be disassembled.

Glock 17 and Glock 19. Please advise.

Also, how did the Square Deal change powder charges on its own?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 04-13-2011, 11:50   #2
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The powder settled. I would be that the ones you loaded at the end of your session a month ago were also 5.1 grs.
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Old 04-13-2011, 12:37   #3
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Are the rounds shootable, or is 5.1 grains going to blow the Glock, and me , to pieces?
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Old 04-13-2011, 12:53   #4
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I presume you did not check your charge weight before loading the 200 rounds? (You'll never do that again).

If 5.1gr is over the maximum recommended charge, it would be prudent to pull the rounds. That being said, maybe an older reloading manual will list a higher max load and give you a little more comfort, should you decide to test the structural capabilities of your Glock. I can check after I get home tonight.

ETA: What is the suggested COL for the <S>5.1gr</S> 4.8gr charge? You are loading to 1.169 which is a recommended max COL. If the <STRIKE>5.1gr</STRIKE> 4.8gr charge is with a significantly shorter COL, you MIGHT be ok.!?

Edited again to correct my transposing the charges as pointed out by Jack below.

Last edited by PCJim; 04-13-2011 at 14:05..
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Old 04-13-2011, 12:56   #5
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You're correct - I did not check before loading.
You're correct again - I won't repeat that negligence.

4.8 is the listed maximum. If you get any additional information, I'd appreciate it.

Thank you.
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Old 04-13-2011, 13:04   #6
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Most of the pictures of kabooms on the internet are rounds loaded with TG. Persoanlly I would not shoot those rounds since they are over the published max load. Even if 5.1 didn't kaboom your gun, it's risky in that a bullet set-back could cause an undesirable outcome.
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Old 04-13-2011, 13:06   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCJim View Post
I presume you did not check your charge weight before loading the 200 rounds? (You'll never do that again).

If 5.1gr is over the maximum recommended charge, it would be prudent to pull the rounds. That being said, maybe an older reloading manual will list a higher max load and give you a little more comfort, should you decide to test the structural capabilities of your Glock. I can check after I get home tonight.

ETA: What is the suggested COL for the 5.1gr charge? You are loading to 1.169 which is a recommended max COL. If the 5.1gr charge is with a significantly shorter COL, you MIGHT be ok.!?

Jim, did you inadvertently reverse this?


Jack
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Old 04-13-2011, 13:10   #8
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Yes 1.169 OAL.

And what is "bullet set back"?

Thanks.

Last edited by carguy2244; 04-13-2011 at 13:20..
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Old 04-13-2011, 13:23   #9
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Originally Posted by GioaJack View Post
Jim, did you inadvertently reverse this?


Jack
I don't believe so. Yes, I did and have now corrected the post. Thanks for pointing this out...

If the 4.8 max charge is provided with a COL of say 1.10 and the OP is reloading to 1.169, there MAY be enough volume difference to offset the additional 0.3gr of TG.

Without knowing some additional historical data on TG, such as maybe some hotter loads from Speer 10 or Lyman 47, I'd be pulling the rounds.

Last edited by PCJim; 04-13-2011 at 14:10..
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Old 04-13-2011, 13:36   #10
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I don't believe so. If the 5.1 max charge is provided with a COL of say 1.10 and the OP is reloading to 1.169, there MAY be enough volume difference to offset the additional 0.3gr of TG.

Without knowing some additional historical data on TG, such as maybe some hotter loads from Speer 10 or Lyman 47, I'd be pulling the rounds.
He is also shooting plated RN, not a JHP, so look at the lead RN charge load, 4.8gr is well beyond max. Load small lots, always verify your powder drops, always. If you walk away from your press, throw several charges & then weigh again. Powder will settle in a very short time & the first 3-4 rounds will have extra powder.
Bullet setback is when the bullet is driven deeper into the case by chambering a round. Happens w/ all cartridges in semiautos but some are worse than others (357sig). Pressures rise dramatically in small vol/high pressures rounds, especially using uberfast powders like TG. A setback as little as 0.060" can raise pressure well into dangerous levels. GOing the other way, longer, reduces pressure.
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Last edited by fredj338; 04-13-2011 at 13:46..
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Old 04-13-2011, 13:36   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCJim View Post
I presume you did not check your charge weight before loading the 200 rounds? (You'll never do that again).

If 5.1gr is over the maximum recommended charge, it would be prudent to pull the rounds. That being said, maybe an older reloading manual will list a higher max load and give you a little more comfort, should you decide to test the structural capabilities of your Glock. I can check after I get home tonight.

ETA: What is the suggested COL for the 5.1gr charge? You are loading to 1.169 which is a recommended max COL. If the 5.1gr charge is with a significantly shorter COL, you MIGHT be ok.!?



Jim:

Probably my meds at work... they can play havoc with reading comprehension. I read it that if he was shorter than published OAL he might be fine... to me that would be going the wrong way since the shorter OAL is going to raise pressure on an already questionable load.

Between just listening to our fearless leader and getting mildly upset and fighting against a foggy mind I'm not sure what I'm reading.

I apologize if I misunderstood.


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Old 04-13-2011, 13:51   #12
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Originally Posted by GioaJack View Post
[/COLOR]

Jim:

Probably my meds at work... they can play havoc with reading comprehension. I read it that if he was shorter than published OAL he might be fine... to me that would be going the wrong way since the shorter OAL is going to raise pressure on an already questionable load.

Between just listening to our fearless leader and getting mildly upset and fighting against a foggy mind I'm not sure what I'm reading.

I apologize if I misunderstood.

Jack
Jack, no apologies needed. You are definitely correct in that if he was loading shorter than the COL provided with the max load, it would be trouble indeed.

Besides, I could have easily mis-typed something that could have led someone astray. I'll be the first to admit that I don't always express myself as clearly as I would like.

BTW, since when did Viagra cause problems with reading comprehension? Sounds more like you're having a problem getting the maid to finish the house cleaning duties..

ETA: Darn, Jack. I just reread that post and your meds appear to NOT be affecting your reading comprehension. See what I said above?...

That should have been "if the 4.8gr charge is with a shorter COL,..." I'll correct the original post.

Last edited by PCJim; 04-13-2011 at 13:59..
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Old 04-13-2011, 13:56   #13
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He is also shooting plated RN, not a JHP, so look at the lead RN charge load, 4.8gr is well beyond max. Load small lots, always verify your powder drops, always. If you walk away from your press, throw several charges & then weigh again. Powder will settle in a very short time & the first 3-4 rounds will have extra powder.
Bullet setback is when the bullet is driven deeper into the case by chambering a round. Happens w/ all cartridges in semiautos but some are worse than others (357sig). Pressures rise dramatically in small vol/high pressures rounds, especially using uberfast powders like TG. A setback as little as 0.060" can raise pressure well into dangerous levels. GOing the other way, longer, reduces pressure.
Fred, I'm at work and have no references here on TG loadings. I had intended to look up the data for him tonight. If 4.8grs is for jacketed, he is definitely looking at an evening filled with a collet puller (hopefully for him, as an inertia puller will be a week long process).

As the OP stated, I don't believe he'll make the mistake again. I'm just glad he caught the problem before potentially injuring himself or someone standing close by.
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Old 04-13-2011, 14:00   #14
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I'm hoping to get back into playing condition before my Viagra expires.


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Old 04-13-2011, 22:12   #15
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Are the rounds shootable, or is 5.1 grains going to blow the Glock, and me , to pieces?
You can fire then to find out. Not sure I'd want to find out that way. Max loads may be conservative. Many push past them fine. Pressures can vary by gun barrel and bullet.

If those 4.8gr loads did not show pressure signs and chrono'd okay, you MAY be fine. It's your hand, face and gun. Me, I'd use my right hand to pull them.

Powdered settled. I ALWAYS weigh the first few loads in my SDB when starting up. Chalk this up to lesson learned.
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Old 04-14-2011, 06:08   #16
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carguy: I had a situation that led me to pull a couple hundred. I purchased the RCBS collet bullet puller. I highly recommend it for plated bullets. Screw it into a spare tool head and in seconds you'll be in business. You'll be done in no time flat & no marks on the bullets!
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Old 04-14-2011, 14:31   #17
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I have used TG quite a bit. I have experimented with above max charge loads in 9mm with 147gr bullets and have gone a fair bit more than .3 gr over. I think they will shoot fine (but for the first couple I'd hold the gun far away and close my eyes ). Of course the safest answer is to pull them though.

I have also experienced the settling problem. You've got to keep an eye on that and periodically recheck, especially if you've left the powder funnel full for a long time between loadings.
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Old 04-14-2011, 17:04   #18
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The only data I can find is that for an 115gr lead bullet, same as a plated bullet is 4.5 gr. of Tightgroup. So .3 gr over you might be able to get away with at your 1.169 col but .6gr over I would not press my luck.
If you are using a kinetic bullet puller? Instead of using the 3 jaw that come with the puller. Use a single stage shell holder instead. Makes it a lot easier. Also get a piece of 4X4X4 piece of wood.
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Old 04-14-2011, 18:14   #19
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I would not push TG personally. Pulling them is a better idea then picking up pieces of your gun.
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Old 04-14-2011, 18:15   #20
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The only data I can find is that for an 115gr lead bullet, same as a plated bullet is 4.5 gr. of Tightgroup. So .3 gr over you might be able to get away with at your 1.169 col but .6gr over I would not press my luck.
If you are using a kinetic bullet puller? Instead of using the 3 jaw that come with the puller. Use a single stage shell holder instead. Makes it a lot easier. Also get a piece of 4X4X4 piece of wood.

Thanks Bob, I never thought of or heard of that before. I will give it a try next time I need to pull a bunch.

Not that I ever will have a reason to pull a few ..........
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