[atmarcella]

click


"The image we have is of the church as an institution of power, foremost worried about its reputation, disconnected from the real world and with a twisted view of sexuality."

[isuzu]

Don't have to fully read the article. The quote drives the message.

[horge]

Give me a break.

The Church isn't the Vatican, and the very article itself identifies
several Catholic bishops and luminaries as the most outraged by
Vangheluwe's disgusting acts; and Catholics as the most active
in pursuing justice and reform.

For the most part, the article actually identifies the Vatican as
the culprit, but I am not surprised that it wraps reportage up
with what an anti-Catholic professor has to say: smearing the
entire Church for the ineptitude of some Cardinals and a Pope.

The United States isn't the White House,
The Philippines isn't Manila, and the Church isn't the Vatican.

Peddling such a non-sequitur to push an anti-Catholic agenda
is very weak sauce, and only the very stupidest would fail to see
such a lie for what it is. If someone is posting you such garbage,
take it as a sign that they think you're dumb enough to buy it.

Pffh.
Belgium ITSELF refuses to prosecute the criminal, because of some
arbitrary statute of limitations (what temporal law isn't arbitrary?),
but nobody is criticizing Belgium of being a coddler of pedophiles,
or of being "an institution of power, foremost worried about its
reputation, disconnected from the real world and with a twisted view
of sexuality".

[casmot]

Originally Posted by horge

Give me a break.

The Church isn't the Vatican, and the very article itself identifies
several Catholic bishops and luminaries as the most outraged by
Vangheluwe's disgusting acts; and Catholics as the most active
in pursuing justice and reform.

For the most part, the article actually identifies the Vatican as
the culprit, but I am not surprised that it wraps reportage up
with what an anti-Catholic professor has to say: smearing the
entire Church for the ineptitude of some Cardinals and a Pope.

The United States isn't the White House,
The Philippines isn't Manila, and the Church isn't the Vatican.

Peddling such a non-sequitur to push an anti-Catholic agenda
is very weak sauce, and only the very stupidest would fail to see
such a lie for what it is. If someone is posting you this garbage,
take it as a sign that they think you're dumb enough to buy it.

Pffh.
Belgium ITSELF refuses to prosecute the criminal, because of some
arbitrary statute of limitations (what temporal law isn't arbitrary?),
but nobody is criticizing Belgium of being a facilitator of pedophiles,
or of being "an institution of power, foremost worried about its
reputation, disconnected from the real world and with a twisted view
of sexuality".

[atmarcella]

but the belgian govt does not stand on moral high ground...

[atmarcella]

what will happen is they will rehabilitate the priest, afterwhich they will assign him to some third world country and then he will continue playing with those countries little boys.

this has happened before, i saw it on a bbc documentary... i think it was brazil or colombia.

if you support that... then wala naman tayo magawa dyan. its a free world.

[atmarcella]

akin lang, kawawa naman ang little boys ng poor countries na yan, mahirap na nga sila, binaboy pa sila. heartwrenching actually.

[Wp.22]

There isnone priest somewhere in cebu or bohol i think that was ordained as priest by a local bishop where infact he was kick out in the seminary back in the states for sexual offense yata.

I just hope none of my relatives are into that thing

[Allegra]

the problem w/ organized religion is kailangan pa ng authority who dictates what is right and what is wrong
and that is prone to abuse

Nabasa ko lang yata yan, di ko lang matandaan saan

[horge]

Originally Posted by atmarcella

but the belgian govt does not stand on moral high ground...

Moral, humanistic or legal ground, what is the PRACTICAL difference?

Both the Belgian government and the Vatican define (and deal with)
offenses by their constituents and officials according to their own
sets of laws, policies and rules --which are all defined as inviolable.

Originally Posted by atmarcella

what will happen is they will rehabilitate the priest, afterwhich they will assign him to some third world country and then he will continue playing with those countries little boys. this has happened before, i saw it on a bbc documentary... i think it was brazil or colombia.

And what did the Belgian government do about Marc Dutroux?
In 1983 he was convicted of raping five young girls, and was
jailed for only five years. It was the law. Freed, he then abducted
and raped two 8-year old girls, a 12-year old, a 14 year-old, a
17-year old and a 19 year old. the two eight year olds starved to
death in his cellar. All the victims were raped repeatedly while
in captivity. There ahave been OTHER similar cases in Belgium,
and yet...

Almost NOTHING has changed in Belgian law since these outrages.
Still, it would be a mistake to charge ALL Belgians of being coddlers
of pedophiles. The Belgian people were the most outraged of all,
and are working hardest to make sure the system they have works
more and fails less.

It would also be a mistake to charge ALL Catholics of coddling
pedophile priests, when it is Catholics who are working hardest to
reform a corrupt administrative system, so that it works more and
fails less. When you speak of 'the Church', you are talking about
the entire human family of Catholics, not just the Vatican.

There is no question the Vatican has failed miserably, and there should
be no question that the Belgian government has failed as-miserably
(see above case).

if you support that... then wala naman tayo magawa dyan. its a free world.

Andrew, ayusin mo 'yang attempt-at-rhetoric mo.

You're WAY out of line, to suggest anyone here could support that.
Resorting to veiled ad hominem is both cowardly and deliberately
dishonest, unless you're THAT unintelligent: I've repeatedly pointed
out how Catholics are the most victimized, the most outraged AND
the most proactive towards reform... and I've identified the Vatican
as guilty by way of callous ineptitude, and yet meron ka pang pabitiw
na "if you support that".

Show me your argumentative arsenal consists of more than veiled
ad hominems, motherhood-statements and then playing-the-victim,
whenever you're overrun in a discussion.

h.

[Duckman1975]

IMHO, The Church like its flock should separate the "man" from the "Robe", When the "Robe" sinned let God punish him but when the "man" sinned in man's law let the law of man punish him.

[horge]

Originally Posted by Duckman1975

IMHO, The Church like its flock should separate the "man" from the "Robe", When the "Robe" sinned let God punish him but when the "man" sinned in man's law let the law of man punish him.

But...
Penal consequences aren't the urgent issue (although the victims
deserve earthly justice). It is the elimination of a clear and present
danger to minors that is demanded, and immediately.

Belgian law enforcement, Belgian courts and the Vatican ALL should
have stripped Vangheluwe of all ability to ever prey on minors again;
but they have not, because they all hold something more sacred than
the safety of minors: whether "civil rights", "priestly privileges" or
some other supposedly-paramount principle.

-A male Belgian citizen sexually abuses Belgian minors, in violation of
"Belgian law"... but the Belgian courts refuse to entertain charges
against the abuser, again because of "Belgian law".

-A Catholic 'priest' sexually abuses young Catholics, in gross violation
of "Vatican policies and rules"... but the Vatican refuses to eliminate
the threat this 'priest' represents, or even mete out punishment,
again because of "Vatican policies and rules".

Both failures are condemnable, and have been condemned, by common
Belgians and common Catholics, because they are motivated not by
mere laws, rules and policies... but by common and Catholic morals.

Belgium is its people, not the government/gaolers.
The Church is the flock, not the would-be shepherds/butchers.

As I said repeatedly: you can't tar all of Belgium or all the Church as
"pedophile-coddlers", as you'd effectively be blaming the victims...
but you can rightly denounce both the Belgian government and
the Vatican as abject institutional failures, insofar as the
protection of their most helpless constituents is concerned... and
you can work towards deep reforms in both administrative institutions,
for the sake of said most helpless.

h.

[horge]

Originally Posted by Allegra

the problem w/ organized religion is kailangan pa ng authority who dictates
what is right and what is wrong, and that is prone to abuse

Yep, but I'd rephrase that slightly to:
"the problem w/ organized religion is kailangan pa ng authority who INTERPRETS
what is right and what is wrong, and that is a guarantee of abuse"

Insofar as the Catholic Church is concerned, Scripture lays out what
is right and what is wrong, albeit in terms that would have been clearer
to a society of the 1st century AD.

Modern perception and contexts are different, and provide the excuse
for Church doctors to interpret Scripture... typically to serve decidedly
earthly ends --kaya nga merong 'Just War' daw, despite the very clear
commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill"; or the many workarounds created
to dilute the ideal of poverty ...and in this regard , Christ was brutally
correct about a camel's odds, passing through the eye of a needle
(Matt 19:24). Sometimes though, the need for interpretation is genuine,
because Scripture can seem inconsistent (and can lead to the conflict
alluded to in Matt 10:34). Nevertheless, logical/syllogical 'rationalization'
of Scripture can go too far, and explains why Pedophile priests aren't
stripped of all priestly character and punished severely by the Vatican.

h.

[Allegra]

meron ba sa bible about family planning?

I was thinking yung thou shall not kill was misinterpreted as thou shalt not murder
OTOH , if God is real , I doubt papayag sya mali ang malagay sa bible
elementary ko huli nabasa ang bible , meron ba dun about bawal mag asawa ng madami?
Wala ako matandaan

[Duckman1975]

Originally Posted by horge

But...
Penal consequences aren't the urgent issue (although the victims
deserve earthly justice). It is the elimination of a clear and present
danger to minors that is demanded, and immediately.

Belgian law enforcement, Belgian courts and the Vatican ALL should
have stripped Vangheluwe of all ability to ever prey on minors again;
but they have not, because they all hold something more sacred than
the safety of minors: whether "civil rights", "priestly privileges" or
some other supposedly-paramount principle.

-A male Belgian citizen sexually abuses Belgian minors, in violation of
"Belgian law"... but the Belgian courts refuse to entertain charges
against the abuser, again because of "Belgian law".

-A Catholic 'priest' sexually abuses young Catholics, in gross violation
of "Vatican policies and rules"... but the Vatican refuses to eliminate
the threat this 'priest' represents, or even mete out punishment,
again because of "Vatican policies and rules".

Both failures are condemnable, and have been condemned, by common
Belgians and common Catholics, because they are motivated not by
mere laws, rules and policies... but by common and Catholic morals.

Belgium is its people, not the government/gaolers.
The Church is the flock, not the would-be shepherds/butchers.

As I said repeatedly: you can't tar all of Belgium or all the Church as
"pedophile-coddlers", as you'd effectively be blaming the victims...
but you can rightly denounce both the Belgian government and
the Vatican as abject institutional failures, insofar as the
protection of their most helpless constituents is concerned... and
you can work towards deep reforms in both administrative institutions,
for the sake of said most helpless.

h.

I agree with you, I thought the Belgian laws regarding pedophiles are like the laws in the US, that a person who is convicted of sexually abusing a minor should be registered and is illegal to be working with or going near minors. Even if the Church refuses to do something about it, that law could have prevented those "priest" from ever working or going near future victims. The Vatican should burn those priest in the stakes the way they burn "heretics" during the Inquisitions

[horge]

I'm a pro death-penalty Catholic, and "priests" who abuse minors
fully deserve the death penalty. I however can't agree with what
you're proposing.

Burning at the stake seems far too gentle a process.





h.

[cebuboy]

How about castration then?

[horge]

Originally Posted by cebuboy

How about castration then?

Castration, in installments.
Followed by burning at the stake. Also in installments.



Seriously though, safeguarding the public from further abuse
is the priority, and if castration helps serve that purpose,
then so be it. Execution would serve as well or better, and
probably cost less overall.

[Kaiser Soze]

Originally Posted by horge

Castration, in installments.
Followed by burning at the stake. Also in installments.



Seriously though, safeguarding the public from further abuse
is the priority, and if castration helps serve that purpose,
then so be it. Execution would serve as well or better, and
probably cost less overall.

Castration? I remember reading an article regarding how a child molester continued to victimize people despite being castrated. (I'll try to find that article again via Google). I'm also not sure if he was chemically castrated or physically (i.e. physical removal of testes) castrated.

[horge]

Originally Posted by Kaiser Soze

Castration? I remember reading an article regarding how a child molester continued to victimize people despite being castrated. (I'll try to find that article again via Google). I'm also not sure if he was chemically castrated or physically (i.e. physical removal of testes) castrated.

Hey now, it was Andy who brought it up...
You're quite right, and again: execution is a more complete solution.

Nevertheless...
Castration of convicted child-rapists CAN help in "safeguarding the public
from further abuse", in the sense of providing greater deterrence against
other potential child-rapists. I'm sure there are ways of incorporating
castration into a death sentence: ways that maximize the fear of it.

[Duckman1975]

Originally Posted by horge

Hey now, it was Andy who brought it up...
You're quite right, and again: execution is a more complete solution.

Nevertheless...
Castration of convicted child-rapists CAN help in "safeguarding the public
from further abuse", in the sense of providing greater deterrence against
other potential child-rapists. I'm sure there are ways of incorporating
castration into a death sentence: ways that maximize the fear of it.

I agree with castration as an alternative to the death penalty, but would like to add amputation of both hands.

[atmarcella]

hehe nice talk here, sorry the folks were here for the holy week and i was kinda busy, anyway.....

H,

i am not generalizing ALL catholics as such, i mysef am a catholic.... maybe the article generalized but not me. i posted the article bcos im angered by the reaction of the authorities... in this case the vatican, they are the ones "in charge" and their reaction is to recycle the priest, that is what pissess me off....the reaction of the vatican to the event.... not all catholics....cause, believe it or not, that includes me.

fish bro.

[atmarcella]

and one other thing.

i find it hard to compare the vatican to the belgian govt., i mean how many people does the belgian govt. preside over? im sure its below the phil. population of a 100mil, and the vatican what? a trillion?

not only the numbers, the belgian govt. does not go around saying follow us, we are enlightened by the true god, we know what is right and wrong...... follow us.

the belgian govt. can afford to be immoral, after all they're just the belgian govt., a small country, not even a religion, let alone the worlds largest, most encompassing religion.

its like comparing lebron james, hey its the playoffs hehe, to........ vergel meneses, i can already hear half of you saying who?, hey that was the time when i was a fan of the PBA hehe.

[Wp.22]

Originally Posted by atmarcella

and one other thing.

i find it hard to compare the vatican to the belgian govt., i mean how many people does the belgian govt. preside over? im sure its below the phil. population of a 100mil, and the vatican what? a trillion?

not only the numbers, the belgian govt. does not go around saying follow us, we are enlightened by the true god, we know what is right and wrong...... follow us.

the belgian govt. can afford to be immoral, after all they're just the belgian govt., a small country, not even a religion, let alone the worlds largest, most encompassing religion.

its like comparing lebron james, hey its the playoffs hehe, to........ vergel meneses, i can already hear half of you saying who?, hey that was the time i was a fan of the PBA hehe.

manila has like 14 million residents belgium as a whole less than 11 million.

[atmarcella]

thanks pot!