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Old 08-14-2011, 06:59   #251
21Carrier
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I'll get GTRhino to add SD to the spreadsheet. I didn't have SD for many of the first few runs since I had just written down the results (I was new to the chrono). I can go back and calculate SD. I will start to add some sort of accuracy rating, although with some of the bullets tested, I only had a few to test. If I have enough to test accuracy, I will from now on. I should just test for accuracy while chronographing. That should also help keep me from shooting my chronograph. Either me or GTRhino got close to doing it the other day. I noticed I was starting to jerk a few shots and had to settle down a bit. Then a while later, we noticed there were two shots WAYYY low. How they missed the chronograph, I'll never know.
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Old 08-14-2011, 09:37   #252
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Ditto the request for accuracy info. Keep up the good work. GREATLY appreciated. Let me/us know how we can help. I went to the range and have a bunch of data to upload as soon as I can get some time. Mostly 135 Noslers.

Last edited by hubcap500; 08-15-2011 at 19:33..
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Old 08-17-2011, 08:03   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
I am about to start back with the wax testing, I know it's been a while since the last one. I made a new tube to test in. I was getting sick of making cardboard tubes (they take almost an hour, and all the taping is insane), so I made something that's quick, and reusable. The idea to use PVC was GTRhino's idea, I just worked out the design. I cut a 4" diameter PVC pipe in two length-wise, attached the two sides with hinges, and the other side with latches. I used some rubber weatherstripping to seal the two halves, and an PVC end cap to seal one end. I think it will work. My only concern is that the diameter is slightly smaller. The old ones were usually 4.25-4.5". This one is maybe a tad more than 4". I'll fill it up and test the 180gr PDX1 Bonded and Pow'RBall soon, maybe Monday or Tuesday.

Here are some pictures:

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Love the new tube design ... should be much easier. I also can't wait to see how it affects the results, too.

Btw, you should do a test of something you've already done to compare the wound channel in the OLD tube to the channel in the NEW tube so you have a baseline to compare future tests to.
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Old 08-17-2011, 08:45   #254
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Good idea.

Another one is go to a carpet store and get some carpet roll tubes, IE cardboard.

I cut them down and use them for shipping occasionally. The carpet store here throws them out all the time an they are tough tubes.
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Old 08-17-2011, 13:09   #255
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Ok, so the PVC tubes didn't work out. They were awesome in cutting down my prep time, and after shooting, they open right up. However, I was worried about them holding the pressure. I have blown quite a few of the cardboard tubes open with some of the higher energy rounds. I tried to give the PVC tubes a chance by opening the latches, and using tape to hold them together. Well, the tape held, the PVC didn't. Both tubes shattered. So, they were just a pretty waste of money. Damn. Anyway, I think the results are pretty comparable to the previous tubes for two reasons. First, the diameter change was less than half an inch. Second, they busted open just like the cardboard does (actually worse).

P.S.- 2 100 round boxes of the 155gr Gold Dots just showed up at my house. I wasn't expecting them for a month or so. Cool, that means there's another bullet to test! I just hope it opens in the wax unlike the 165gr and 180gr Gold Dots. If not, I have an idea to get it to open.

Hot 180gr Winchester PDX1 Bonded Wax Tube Test

Ok, so this bullet looks on the outside to be an exact copy of the Talon bullets (old Black Talon or new Ranger-T). When it opens, however, it usually looks closer to a Gold Dot. This bullet was pulled from the .40S&W PDX1 Bonded load (supplied by GTRhino24). In the .40S&W loading, it was made to run at 1025fps. As it usual, I pushed it a LITTLE bit harder. Here's all the data:

Load Data:
Starline nickel brass, CCI 300, 10.3gr 800-X, COAL 1.260"

Chronograph Data:
Chronograph: CE ProChrono Digital @ 10ft.
Conditions: 91*F, 36% humidity, 495ft ASL

9rounds
-1248
-1249
-1253
-1273
-1277
-1267
-1288
-1277
-1271
High: 1288
Low: 1248
Average: 1267
ES: 40
SD: 14

The bullet performed pretty well, though it is obviously not meant for 10mm velocity. The core and jacket totally separated. This might not be expected from a bonded bullet, but I think it highlights the fact that bonded bullets are not indestructible. Many assume the jacket cannot separate on a bonded bullet, but it can. All bonded means is that the copper jacket is bonded to the top layer of lead. If that top layer of lead peels off the deeper lead, it comes apart, which is what happened here. Even though the jacket and core separated, they both penetrated to about the same depth.

Wax data:
Penetration: 10.5"
Max wound dia.: 3"

Bullet data:
Expansion-
-Max core: .540"
-Min core: .522"
-Max jacket: .836"
-Min jacket: .674"
Mass retention-
-Jacket: 70.3gr
-Core: 93.6gr
-Total: 163.5gr

Wax Tube Pictures:

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Bullet Pictures:

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Hot 135gr Pow'RBall Wax Tube Test:

This is one of those "fancy" bullets. Like the Hornady Critical Defense, it has a polymer ball inside of the "hollow point" that is supposed to offer FMJ-like feeding, while also preventing the hollow point from clogging. CorBon also claims that it promotes rapid expansion. I was actually surprised at how well this bullet did. This seems like quite a good load, actually. It's got some decent energy, showed as much penetration as the 180gr PDX1, and had great expansion. Again, thanks to GTRhino24 for the bullets.

Load Data:
-Starline brass, CCI 300, 12.0gr 800-X, COAL 1.260"

Chronograph Data:
-Chronograph: CE ProChrono Digital @ 10ft.
-Conditions: 91*F, 36% humidity, 495ft ASL

9rounds
-1402
-1460
-1516
-1536
-1508
-1439
-1419
-1504
-1489
High: 1536
Low: 1402
Average: 1474
ES: 134
SD: 46

The bullet did REALLY well for such a light bullet. Expansion was very large, and the jacket didn't separate. Actually, the jacket DID separate, but it stayed loosely attached. It did not fall off the core until I started messing with it. I never found the ball. It is probably in the wax somewhere. I guess I'll find it when I melt it.

Wax data:
Penetration: 10"
Max wound dia.: 3" (I think it would actually have been closer to 4", but the tube was a little smaller than normal, and the top layer of wax blew apart, and was hard to measure. The 3" diameter is my extrapolation after trying to reconstruct the top layer.

Bullet data:
Expansion-
-Max: .857"
-Min: .633"

Mass retention-
-Jacket: 15.8gr (notice that the jacket is VERY light weight, and only a tiny bit was missing)
-Core: 111.2gr
-Total: 127.0gr

Wax Tube Pictures: (sorry the wax tube was a bit mangled)

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Bullet Pictures:

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I also have a pretty good video that includes both wax tube tests and the chronograph tests of these two loads and one other. I'll post a link to it later when I get it on YouTube.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-17-2011 at 13:12..
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Old 08-17-2011, 20:15   #256
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Once again, thanks for the great data!

It looks to me that the Win. PDX1 Bonded is made for .40 S&W velocities. That jacket is either much too thin or much too soft to stand up to 10mm velocity. Good to know, though.

The 135 Pow'RBall looked really good. 111gr. remaining on the main slug is exceptional for being driven almost 1500fps.

Nice work!
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Old 08-17-2011, 20:46   #257
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PDX like the older Black Talons and others are being made to work within a window of of velocity which does better fit the 40S&W.

If the manufactures actually did make the bullet work over that velocity to fit the 10mm they would be less likely to work at the slower speeds and making it just for 10mm forget it, Hornady 200XTP fast and heavy!

Speer's Gold Dot seems to be able to work over a slightly wider velocity range with many of their bullets and calibers. But these have limitations as well.
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Old 08-18-2011, 03:41   #258
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Like I said in my earlier post, I just got 200 155gr Gold Dots in the mail. I also have 30 165gr Gold Dots that Deep Blue sent me (he actually sent me 40, but I shot 10 today to back up the single shot chrono data from earlier), and about 20 180gr Gold Dots. So, I'm planning to retest all of them in the wax tubes soon since they didn't open in the wax before. My next two tests will likely be the factory CorBon 135gr Pow'RBall and the 155gr Gold Dot.

I also want to retest the 125gr TAC-XP once I get more of them and get the load finalized. I want to bump up the 800-X load a bit, and do a Longshot max work-up. From what Mudrush has told me, I should get good results from the Longshot. I think 1550-1600fps is feasible from the G29. Once I max it out, I'll test it again, since the first test was only at 1300fps.

If I can't get the 155gr Gold Dot to open in the wax (and I'm guessing it won't), I've got an idea to help it. I'm thinking I'll leave about 2-4" of room at the top of the wax tube, and pour some water on top of the wax. I'm hoping that will get the bullet started, then we can see what they will do in wax.

I'm also pretty anxious to shoot some of these 155gr Gold Dots into water. From the .40S&W expansion pictures I've seen, they don't open quite like the 165gr bullets. The 165gr Gold Dots that I've gotten to open well are beautiful, and would be absolutely devastating to a living target (see picture below). If the 155gr GDs don't open quite as well, I'll have to get on the waiting list for some more 165gr GDs, because they should be pretty nasty. I averaged 1367fps from my G29 with them. That's over 700fpe, and would be a great carry load.

Pictures of 165gr GDHP fired into water; 10.8gr 800-X used, no chrono data yet (11.2gr yields 1367fps, so I'd guess about 1325fps for the 10.8gr load).

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I can't imagine ANYTHING doing too well after that hit them at 1350fps. That would leave a pretty nasty wound.
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Old 08-18-2011, 11:40   #259
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Thanks go to GT member Deep Blue. He provided me with 40 165gr Gold Dots so that I could complete the wax tube load chronograph data. I only had one 165gr GDHP left to chronograph, so the result was pretty insignificant. Anyway, here's the data from the 10 round test (one didn't read, so I only have 9 results):

Load used: Starline brass, CCI 300, 11.2gr 800-X, COAL 1.260", Glock 29 w/ 21lb Wolff spring.

CE ProChrono Digital, 91*F, 36% humidity, 495ft ASL, fired at 10ft.

9 rounds
-1356
-1391
-1348
-1406
-1324
-1394
-1377
-1336
-1375
High: 1406
Low: 1324
Average: 1367
ES: 82
SD: 28

Thanks again, to Deep Blue for the bullets!
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Old 08-18-2011, 22:10   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
I just got 200 155gr Gold Dots in the mail. My next two tests will likely be the factory CorBon 135gr Pow'RBall and the 155gr Gold Dot.

If I can't get the 155gr Gold Dot to open in the wax (and I'm guessing it won't), I've got an idea to help it. I'm thinking I'll leave about 2-4" of room at the top of the wax tube, and pour some water on top of the wax. I'm hoping that will get the bullet started, then we can see what they will do in wax.

I'm also pretty anxious to shoot some of these 155gr Gold Dots into water. From the .40S&W expansion pictures I've seen, they don't open quite like the 165gr bullets. The 165gr Gold Dots that I've gotten to open well are beautiful, and would be absolutely devastating to a living target (see picture below). If the 155gr GDs don't open quite as well, I'll have to get on the waiting list for some more 165gr GDs, because they should be pretty nasty. I averaged 1367fps from my G29 with them. That's over 700fpe, and would be a great carry load.
As mentioned earlier, I'm most curious about the 155gr Gold Dots. My favorite 10mm carry load has always been the Double Tap 155gr Gold Dot load till they stopped making them. I still have a few. Never had a chronograph to know what velocity they were at.

I'll be extremely surprised if you have any trouble whatsoever getting the 155gr Gold Dots to expand. My backyard testing with the ex-DT-155gr-GD load generally showed .88" expansion shot into anything from dry soil to mud to water jugs, even with penetration of only ~2" in dry hard packed soil.

I'm hoping you get them going at +1400fps.
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Old 08-19-2011, 09:09   #261
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I loaded up some of the 155gr Gold Dots last night. I might try to chronograph/water jug test some today. I loaded 11 each of some max (or near max) 800-X, Blue Dot, Longshot, and Power Pistol loads. I figure I'll test 10 of each load through the chrono, and one of each in water jugs.

All the pictures I had seen of them at .40S&W speeds made them look really different than the 165gr GDHPs (which I really like). However, I found a test some guy did at THR with one at around 1450fps, and it looked great. He called it a failure, but I call it awesome. It over-expanded, but barely. It was still all together, was about 1" in diameter, and looked very nasty. Most people forget that a bullet is not going to expand as well in tissue as water. So, if that bullet barely over-expanded in water, it should be perfect in tissue. Also, after looking at the 155gr and 165gr Gold Dots side-by-side, I'm fairly certain they are the same bullet, just shorter (and BARELY shorter). They look identical.
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Old 08-19-2011, 09:12   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
... Most people forget that a bullet is not going to expand as well in tissue as water. So, if that bullet barely over-expanded in water, it should be perfect in tissue. Also, after looking at the 155gr and 165gr Gold Dots side-by-side, I'm fairly certain they are the same bullet, just shorter (and BARELY shorter). They look identical.
I tend to agree about the overexpansion issue ... a little overexpansion in water just means its an optimal velocity for everything else, including shots that impact at longer distances where the striking velocity is lower.

As for the difference in 165 vs 155 GD being almost nil (aside from 10gr), I also tend to agree. They are both great bullets.
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Old 08-19-2011, 10:48   #263
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BTW... I was in the store the other day and saw this:

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Bet you can figure out the first thing that popped into my head.... hehe
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Old 08-19-2011, 11:02   #264
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Hahaha, that's hilarious. I was sitting here staring at that picture like, "What the hell is he talking about? Did he post the wrong picture?" Then it hit me. They are free, right? If so, it would be empty real quick.
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Old 08-19-2011, 11:40   #265
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Those 165s blossom pretty nicely, don't they? I have found that about 1335 fps is a good speed for them overall. That is my carry load for in town.
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Old 08-19-2011, 12:20   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
Hahaha, that's hilarious. I was sitting here staring at that picture like, "What the hell is he talking about? Did he post the wrong picture?" Then it hit me. They are free, right? If so, it would be empty real quick.
Haha!

Actually I think they WERE free but its kinda like a newspaper bin: the honor system. I ain't gonna do 'em like that.
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Old 08-19-2011, 22:29   #267
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Those 165s blossom pretty nicely, don't they? I have found that about 1335 fps is a good speed for them overall. That is my carry load for in town.
Yeah, if I can get these 155gr Gold Dots to look like that 165gr bullet, but at around 1400fps, they will be used for carry. Then I can pull down the 21 Barnes bullets I'm carrying now, and do some Longshot work-ups!!! I just can't imagine a much better bullet if I can get the 155gr Gold Dots to expand like that. One inch of expansion, plus good penetration, great mass retention, 155gr, awesome energy, and their proven barrier penetration would make a great carry round. Hopefully I can make it accurate and feed reliably, as well.

If I can get the Barnes bullet to 1550-1600fps, though, it's gonna be a tough choice.

Quote:
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Haha!

Actually I think they WERE free but its kinda like a newspaper bin: the honor system. I ain't gonna do 'em like that.
Yeah, but nobody uses yellow pages anymore. That's why there were so many left. Just replace them with a note that says, "go to yellowpages.com". Of course, I'm kidding. It's not good to steal even free stuff.
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Old 08-20-2011, 00:07   #268
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Thanks a lot for these tests man... I just stumbled upon a box of 135gr Noslers at Cabela's so now I have 150gr and 135gr Noslers and 180gr XTP's to blast at the range.

What's a good load for the 135gr Nosler to get the kinda results you got? I've only been using Blue Dot so far but after I get a Chrono I'll start trying other powders.
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Old 08-20-2011, 00:50   #269
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Thanks a lot for these tests man... I just stumbled upon a box of 135gr Noslers at Cabela's so now I have 150gr and 135gr Noslers and 180gr XTP's to blast at the range.

What's a good load for the 135gr Nosler to get the kinda results you got? I've only been using Blue Dot so far but after I get a Chrono I'll start trying other powders.
I haven't ever used Blue Dot with the 135gr Nosler JHPs, but I would guess 12.5gr would be a good starting point. I would THINK you could go to 14.0gr or so. Hubcap500 just did some testing with them and Blue Dot. Check out his thread for his load data:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1363948

I think you should get some 800-X or Longshot for them. Hubcap has data for both of those powders with them on that page, as well. I have used 13.0gr 800-X (CCI 300, COAL 1.260") and gotten around 1550fps from my stock G29 barrel. Start around 12.0gr and work up. That same load averaged 1734fps with GTRhino's 5.47" LWD G20 barrel. I would guess about 1650fps from a G20. Longshot is also a good choice. You should be able to work up to around 1600fps+ with a G20. I would start around 11.5gr with it.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-20-2011 at 00:53..
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Old 08-21-2011, 18:11   #270
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Check out these 155gr Gold Dots shot into water jugs. These bullets would be horrible to get shot with. Especially the 11.5gr 800-X load. It expanded to a max of 1.105" and minimum of 1.001". NONE of it was less than one inch. Oh yeah, it retained 153.9gr. Nice.

It's actually really cool how you can see these Gold Dots progress and expand more and more with each jump up in velocity. The first picture is the Blue Dot load at 1257fps. Second is the Longshot load at 1290fps, then the 11.5gr 800-X load at 1388fps. When I got to the 11.8gr 800-X load (1409fps), the bullet lost a couple of petals, but would still be effective.

13.0gr Blue Dot (1257fps):
Min expansion: .606"
Max expansion: .862"
Retained mass: 155.2gr

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11.5gr Longshot (1290fps):
Min expansion: .969"
Max expansion: 1.101"
Retained mass: 155.2gr

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11.5gr 800-X (1388fps):
Min expansion: 1.001"
Max expansion: 1.105"
Retained mass: 153.9gr

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11.8gr 800-X (1409fps):
Min expansion: .762"
Max expansion: .958"
Retained mass: 126.4gr/with 3 petals: 155.8gr

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And here's one of my current carry loads (Barnes 125gr TAC-XP/11.4gr 800-X/1460fps):
Min expansion: .527"
Max expansion: .619"
Retained mass: 125.6gr

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I'm probably going to switch to the Gold Dots soon so I can pull the Barnes bullets and do some Longshot testing with them. Also, GTRhino and I had a setback today. The cops came and told us we couldn't shoot at our place anymore. So, we will have to find a new place to do the wax tube testing. Hopefully it won't take too long.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-21-2011 at 18:17..
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Old 08-22-2011, 10:51   #271
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Check out these 155gr Gold Dots shot into water jugs. These bullets would be horrible to get shot with.
Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet! Now I'm just hoping they impress to the same extent in the destruction of evil wax tubes.

21Carrier, will one or two of these new 155gr Gold Dot loads be the first sampled in the newly redesigned wax tubes?
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Old 08-23-2011, 14:26   #272
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Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet! Now I'm just hoping they impress to the same extent in the destruction of evil wax tubes.

21Carrier, will one or two of these new 155gr Gold Dot loads be the first sampled in the newly redesigned wax tubes?
I already ran the 180gr PDX1 and 135gr Pow'RBall in the new tubes, and they shattered the PVC (see above for the tests). It's a shame, too, because they worked perfectly in all other regards. I'm going back to cardboard. It absorbs the shock of high energy rounds much better.

The 155gr Gold Dot will be the next round I test. I'll devote two tubes to it. I'll do one with bare wax (as normal), and have a backup ready in case it fails to expand (like the 165gr and 180gr Gold Dots did). If that happens, I'll pour some water over the top of the wax tube. I'm hoping that will get the bullet to open, and it will finish in the wax. We will see.

Also, it may be a while, since me and GTRhino lost our shooting venue. I knew it was borderline legal, but I've shot there for 2 years and no one has ever said a word to me. The police told us the guy who owns it is a jerk and we couldn't shoot there anymore. I'm trying to find somewhere else that I can do the tests, since a range probably wouldn't tolerate it well.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-23-2011 at 14:26..
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Old 08-24-2011, 22:47   #273
crsuribe
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Shot 2 more 150gr Noslers from a brand new box into water jugs last weekend. Still can't get them to not expand. Both of them fully expanded and retained most of its mass. Will post pics sometime.

I wonder if you got a defective batch or something

Sorry to hear you're gonna have to find a new place.. was that somebody else's land? Check and see if you can join the FOP's club. That's what I did and heck I get to do whatever I want there. There's even a car that you can shoot and you never run into anybody even on the weekends.
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Last edited by crsuribe; 08-24-2011 at 22:54..
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Old 08-25-2011, 09:25   #274
21Carrier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crsuribe View Post
Shot 2 more 150gr Noslers from a brand new box into water jugs last weekend. Still can't get them to not expand. Both of them fully expanded and retained most of its mass. Will post pics sometime.

I wonder if you got a defective batch or something

Sorry to hear you're gonna have to find a new place.. was that somebody else's land? Check and see if you can join the FOP's club. That's what I did and heck I get to do whatever I want there. There's even a car that you can shoot and you never run into anybody even on the weekends.
I am thinking my 150gr Noslers are just crappy. It seems mine are about 50/50 on opening or not. Also, they have HUGE bullet-to-bullet variations with the grooves. Some are very pronounced, some are barely there. Who knows.

Yeah, it was someone else's land. According to the cops, the REAL problem is that there are tons of trails out there, and lots of people go off-roading and dirt biking back there. Apparently, the EPA has been fining the hell out of the landowner because of the environmental impact. Another problem is that the land was recently incorporated into Hoover city limits, which makes discharging a firearm there illegal. I was thinking of contacting the landowner and trying to make a deal with him. I figured I could pay him a small monthly fee, and promise to chase off the dirt bikers/off-roaders, but that wouldn't help with the city limits thing. However, I have a feeling the cops would be cool if I had permission to be there. Plus, I've shot there probably 150-200 times over two years, and that's been my first run-in with the cops.

I'm going to look into some local ranges, and also try to find someone with county land that will let me pay them to shoot on their land. There's also a free range on state wildlife management land that we can use, and we SHOULD be able to do whatever as long as no one else is there. That will likely be where we go until we find a better substitute.
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Old 08-29-2011, 18:48   #275
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I hate it that you guys got ran off, I would definitely try to contact a farmer or other landowner with a decent amount of land. You can shoot on my farm in Central Ky anytime, hell of a drive though.

I got 750 135gr. Nosler's today, all I have is Blue Dot. Where would you guys start at? I loaded up 1 mag at 13.3gr BD and everything seemed to work fine, brass looks great. I've gotta get a chrono. Do the cheap ones around $80 bucks that I see work decent?
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