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Old 05-21-2011, 14:46   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
Ok, I'm gonna test the Black Talon and 180gr Gold Dot in just a little bit. The only problem: I dropped my computer and cracked my screen so it will be out of commission for a week or so. I'll try to do everything with my iPhone but we will see how that goes. So the pics might have to wait til I get the computer back but I'll at least post everything else. The Black Talon will be backed by 8.8gr 800-X. Thats a little lower than what I know is safe for 200gr XTPs so it should be good. The 180gr GD will have 10.3gr 800-X. I'll be back with results around 7-8 tonight!!!
Cool, and that sounds real good with the charges you've chosen.
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Old 05-21-2011, 19:08   #52
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Please let me know if you can view the above photo. I'm trying to upload the pics of the Black Talon/Gold Dot tests with my iPhone. Please let me know if it works.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 05-21-2011 at 19:10..
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Old 05-21-2011, 19:37   #53
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180gr Gold Dot wax tube test

I was seriously disappointed with the 180gr Gold Dot. I was expecting huge expansion but instead got decent but irregular expansion on only 2/3 of the bullet. Two of the six petals didn't even OPEN. I was not impressed. It fully penetrated the full 14" of the wax tube, but the diameter of the channel was very narrow. I didn't see any of the massive wound chamber that's been so common with other bullets.

Max expansion was a good .823" (although that was with one petal sticking way out to one side), min was .605". No jacket separation occurred (no surprise). Retained mass was 163.1gr.

Load used: 10.3gn 800-X, CCI 300, COAL 1.260"

Update: this load chronographed a 10-shot average of 1259fps on 8/4/11.

Pics will be here soon

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...t=photo-12.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...t=photo-10.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...nt=photo-2.jpg

200gr Black Talon wax tube test

The Black Talon was quite impressive for 20 year old technology. It left a SERIOUS wound chamber in the wax, with six chunks of lead (each weighing ~5gr) shooting off into the wax and creating six secondary channels. Penetration was 15+", as it passed all the way through the tube, and put a dent in the ground. The petals were folded way further back than any BT or similar I've ever seen, likely due to the extra velocity.

Retained mass was 165.2gr without the six broken off lead chunks, 196.9th with the chunks. Max expansion was .700", min was .603". The sharp hooks or "talons" were folded all the way to the back in a mangled mess.

Load used: 8.8gn 800-X, CCI 300, COAL 1.260"

Update: I only have one BT left, and I intend to keep it as a souvenir. So, I can only extrapolate on velocity data. I'll use the 200gr XTP's data to make a good guess. With the 200gr XTP, 8.7gr of 800-X produced a 10-shot average of 1114fps. The 200gr XTP with 9.0gr of 800-X hit 1124fps. Since the difference is only 10fps, I would guess with good certainty that the 200gr Black Talon was doing about 1120fps.

Pics coming soon (left to right: Black Talon, Gold Dot, Starfire)

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...nt=photo-4.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...nt=photo-5.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...nt=photo-6.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...nt=photo-7.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...rent=photo.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...nt=photo-1.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...nt=photo-8.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...nt=photo-9.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...t=photo-11.jpg

I also tested a second PMC Starfire in water jugs, since the first seemed to almost vaporize. Well this one was pathetic. It didn't open AT ALL. One petal just broke off, but the nose stayed intact like a FMJ. I sure hope it tests better in the wax tube.

OK, the pictures should work now, but let me know if not.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-05-2011 at 06:54..
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Old 05-22-2011, 19:20   #54
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It's not working for me.
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Old 05-22-2011, 20:44   #55
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Ok I'll see what I can figure out
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Old 05-22-2011, 21:26   #56
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Ok, the pics for the Black Talon/Gold Dot tests should be working now. Sorry it took so long.

PLEASE, SOMEONE POST AND LET ME KNOW IF THE PICS FOR THE BLACK TALON/GOLD DOT TEST ARE WORKING!

Last edited by 21Carrier; 05-22-2011 at 22:06..
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Old 05-23-2011, 19:54   #57
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Wow! I'm not surprised with your 180gr GD results ... they are nice, bonded penetrators but I still don't think they are optimal in FULL POWER 10mm loadings... they would suffice for smaller deer and would probably drop em fast due to violent expansion and bonded construction, but the expansion wouldn't be huge due to its velocity window being exceeded.

I'm quite unimpressed, actually, with the Talons... The only reason being that the bullet is OBVIOUSLY being driven way too fast. I'd love to see a tried and true 10mm Talon bullet designed for 1200+fps... I think the 200gr BT you tested is probably designed for 1000fps. Oh well, we tried, right??

The Starfire's results were pathetic, I agree. I've had good results with them before, but that was in water, no wax.

Thanks for the tests and results, sir!!
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Old 05-23-2011, 22:45   #58
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The Starfire WAS shot into water. I haven't yet tested it in the wax tube. That should be later this week. The first one I shot into water (about a week ago) basically vaporized. For some reason, this one penetrated 3 jugs, hit the phone book backstop, and just sat there, unexpanded. I have NO IDEA what happened. There was nothing in front of the jugs to plug it, and the cavity was not plugged, so who knows. The only thing that I can imagine is maybe it cut out a small piece of plastic from the first jug, and it stayed right in front of the cavity, preventing water from entering and working its magic.

I was just shocked that the Gold Dot did so poorly, as the one I shot into water absolutely shredded. I was very surprised that it barely opened, as I thought they were good expanders. Usually, when you overdrive bullets, they OVER expand. This one barely expanded. A repeat is in order. Actually, all will be repeated after I do some .45ACP and .357Sig tests. I'm also hoping to get some Golden Sabers, Barnes X-bullets, maybe a Pow'RBall, plus anything else I can get my hands on.

Although the result of the Black Talon test looked kind of unimpressive, the wax tube damage tells a different story. The way it fragmented and made SEVEN different wound channels was impressive. Also, the wound chamber was pretty huge. Plus, it penetrated the whole tube. At the end, it wasn't the pretty slug I was hoping to add to my collection, but it did a good bit of damage. It would be a devastating round. As you said, it was obviously overdriven. Maybe I'll decide to shoot that last factory round that I have. MAYBE.

You know, after I've done all the bullets I have, I think I might test a 180gr FMJ, just for comparison's sake. I better bring a long tube.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 05-23-2011 at 22:47..
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Old 05-24-2011, 07:14   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
...Although the result of the Black Talon test looked kind of unimpressive, the wax tube damage tells a different story. The way it fragmented and made SEVEN different wound channels was impressive. Also, the wound chamber was pretty huge. Plus, it penetrated the whole tube. At the end, it wasn't the pretty slug I was hoping to add to my collection, but it did a good bit of damage. It would be a devastating round. As you said, it was obviously overdriven.

I totally see what you're saying about the wound channel ... and you're right, that's really what matters. Not only that, but it penetrated really well, so that is good. I guess I just wanna see a 200gr Black Talon that LOOKS like a proper Black Talon, having stayed together AND penetrated. Still, I have no doubt that what you tested would be effective.

I'm so glad that XTP's are easy to find AND cheap. I sure love them, overall.
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Old 05-24-2011, 17:49   #60
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I know, I really wanted to add a perfectly opened Black Talon to my collection, but oh well. I really think XTPs are the best 10mm bullets out there, overall. I was browsing Midway the other night, and it's just crazy. They are ALWAYS available (even locally), they are cheaper than other, crappier bullets, they are accurate, expand reliably, did I mention cheap and available? Like we were talking about on the other thread, if they started making a 135gr XTP, I don't know if I'd even buy other bullets. Even some local, cheap FMJs (Magnus 180gr) are $44.00 for 250. The XTPs are $20 at the same store. So the XTPs are about $6 more per 250.
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Old 05-24-2011, 17:56   #61
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Quote:
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I know, I really wanted to add a perfectly opened Black Talon to my collection, but oh well. I really think XTPs are the best 10mm bullets out there, overall. I was browsing Midway the other night, and it's just crazy. They are ALWAYS available (even locally), they are cheaper than other, crappier bullets, they are accurate, expand reliably, did I mention cheap and available? Like we were talking about on the other thread, if they started making a 135gr XTP, I don't know if I'd even buy other bullets. Even some local, cheap FMJs (Magnus 180gr) are $44.00 for 250. The XTPs are $20 at the same store. So the XTPs are about $6 more per 250.
I'm thinking I can get a 155gr XTP up around 1500-1600fps from a 6" tube... but I don't really see any reason, however, I DO see a need to get 180-200gr loads up in the nuclear zone: hunting.

I am okay with 155gr XTP's for defense type situations ... or GD, GS, SXT, Ranger, ST, etc etc ... you don't really need too much for normal defense in most cases. Even if you can equal normal .40 ballistics in a defense load, you've got a 96-98% one shot stopper. Anything more is just fluff Love my 10mm for its versatility, though.
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Old 05-24-2011, 18:02   #62
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Oh, no doubt. I KNOW you could get the 155gr XTP that fast. Hell, I've seen chronograph data for 12.9gr of Blue Dot that says it will do 1450fps out of the G20's 4.6" barrel. When I tested that load in the wax tube, it was pretty impressive (and that was likely around 1350fps from my G29). That bullet at around 1600fps would be just downright nasty, even on deer/hogs.
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Old 05-24-2011, 18:13   #63
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I fully agree. I could take ANY 10mm/.40SW XTP and make it work for whatever I needed it to. Love my XTP's.
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Old 05-24-2011, 22:01   #64
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Very peculiar results for the Gold Dot. It almost looks as if the bullet went through sideways. The Black Talon did what I would have expected - big twisted metal with some shedding of mass. Can't argue with the results.

Very cool experiments. Thank you very much for bringing us along.

About the only two things on the wish list would be a WFNGC hardcast and maybe a Golden Saber.
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Old 05-24-2011, 23:07   #65
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Thanks, Taterhead. Next up will be the 165gr Gold Dot and 180gr Starfire. Then the 135gr Nosler. I am also planning to test an FMJ just for comparison's sake. I'll order some Golden Sabers and some WFNGCs sonetime soon and run them. If you want the test results sooner than a month from now, you can always mail me one or two bullets that you want tested and I'll do it. I'd prefer to have at least five to work up a bit, but if you can only spare one, that will have to do.
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Old 05-28-2011, 15:54   #66
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You're doing great work, 21c. Thanx a MM. Not sure tho which bullets match up with what photos. Is it possible to put a caption with them? Thanx again. I hope to have some test results of my own to upload shortly.
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Old 05-28-2011, 21:45   #67
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You're doing great work, 21c. Thanx a MM. Not sure tho which bullets match up with what photos. Is it possible to put a caption with them? Thanx again. I hope to have some test results of my own to upload shortly.
I tried to keep them separated by putting the pics of the Gold Dot tube right after my description, but I can see how that last one was kind of confusing. I added captions to the last post with data (with the Black Talon and Gold Dot). If there are others that don't seem to make sense, let me know which post numbers they are and I'll clarify.

I'm sorry it's been a while since the last test. I will be doing the 165gr Gold Dot in a day or two, and likely the 180gr Starfire at the same time. The 135gr Nosler will be last.
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Old 06-04-2011, 10:58   #68
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Hey guys, sorry there's been such a lack of activity here on my part recently. Since my girlfriend and I just finished with the semester, she's been spending a bunch of time over here, and she gets jealous of the guns/wax tubes, especially when I stay up all night melting and pouring them. I'm doing a new test today, though. I'm either gonna do the 165gr Gold Dot or the 180gr Starfire. I still haven't decided. I'm waiting on the second wax tube to harden, and hopefully it will harden in time. If so, I'll do both today. If not, the second will have to wait for tomorrow.

Anyway, I was making all of my pictures (and some videos) into YouTube videos/slideshows because there were several people on there that really liked my video of the modified 200gr XTP wax tube test, and wanted more. While I was putting all of the videos/slideshows together, I had a chance to look back over the pictures and data. I have to say, there are two that stand head and shoulders above the rest, as far as wound volume and ideal wounding characteristics go.

One is the modified 200gr XTP. I figured it would be nice, but never dreamed it would work as well as it did. It made a 2-2.5" wide channel, and penetrated well. If I get a chance to, I'd love to try one on an animal, but for my first few hunting experiences, I'm gonna stick to the tried and true loads.

The most impressive, to me, was the Black Talon. I was shocked. I thought for sure that it would not live up to its hype. But the results speak for themselves. It made a wider channel than anything (about equal to the modified 200gr XTP), it released 6 chunks of lead that tore their own secondary wound channels, and then it penetrated over 15". It just seemed to have the best of everything: massive energy dump, secondary wounding, and DEEP penetration.

To put that penetration into perspective, I've seen reports of factory Silvertips (out of sub-4" barrels, like mine) penetrate to an average of 11" in ballistic gelatin. In my wax, the factory Silvertip stopped at 6". Using that as a guide, the Black Talon should have hit 27.5" in gelatin, and that's calculated with 15" of penetration in the wax even though it obviously would have gone further. Twenty years after its initial release, it still holds its own against its modern rivals. I wish they made a 200gr Ranger-T in .400".
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Old 06-04-2011, 11:36   #69
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Quote:
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Hey guys, sorry there's been such a lack of activity here on my part recently. Since my girlfriend and I just finished with the semester, she's been spending a bunch of time over here, and she gets jealous of the guns/wax tubes...
Its just the beginning muhahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa! lol (i went from having way too much time on my hands... to a manageable level.... and once I got married ... a bit less, even ... and then once she was prego, MUCH LESS.... and now that I have an 11mo old daughter ...coupled with school.... and the "jealousy" thing with my hobbies.... well, you can guess how much time I have. lol)


Quote:
I wish they made a 200gr Ranger-T in .400"...
Me too, my friend... me too!! A BONDED version, DESIGNED for 1200 FPS!
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Old 06-04-2011, 12:48   #70
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1st the engagement ring, then the wedding ring, then the suffering.

Teach her how to shoot and especially reload, that way you can keep shooting. <bseg> Seriously though, let her know how important it is to you up front.

Last edited by hubcap500; 06-04-2011 at 12:54..
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Old 06-04-2011, 19:51   #71
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1st the engagement ring, then the wedding ring, then the suffering.

Teach her how to shoot and especially reload, that way you can keep shooting. <bseg> Seriously though, let her know how important it is to you up front.
Oh, she knows, and I've tried. She's SUCH a girly girl. Just the THOUGHT of guns sends shivers down her spine, which is odd since her dad was a state trap shooting champion. She's gotten used to them, and to me carrying 24/7. The carrying issue was tough, but I won! I guess I should cherish that singular victory. I have a feeling I'll be able to count such victories on one hand. I've taken her to shoot twice. The first time she wouldn't get out of the car. The second time, I got her to fire a seriously light load (5.5gr Unique/180gr FMJ), but only if I helped her hold the gun. All that persuading and begging got me ONE LOUSY SHOT! I might have gotten a few more out of her, but the mosquitos were HELLISH, and she sought refuge in the car.

I'll keep trying. But in the meantime, I have new test data for you guys!

165gr Gold Dot Wax Tube Test

Load: Rem nickel brass, CCI 300, 11.2gr 800-X, 165gr Gold Dot, COAL=1.260". All fired from my stock G29.

Update: this load chronographed a 10-shot velocity of 1367fps on 8/17/11.

Well, it seems the Gold Dot's design is not wax tube friendly. If you remember, my 180gr Gold Dot test ended with a slightly opened bullet. The 165gr Gold Dot was even worse. Only TWO of the six petals opened, and they only opened a TINY bit. However, the entrance hole to the wax tube was ENORMOUS! I think what is going on here, is that the Gold Dots require more internal hydraulic pressure to open than do other hollow point designs. This coupled with the reduced fluidity of my wax (as compared with tissue, gelatin, or water jugs), results in unopened bullets.

I also tested two 165gr Gold Dots in water jugs (one slower, one faster), and both opened perfectly. So it seems the wax is not ideal for opening a Gold Dot. Anyway, I feel the test was not a total bust. After realizing the bullet didn't open, and noticing an unusual cone or "tornado-like" shape to the wound channel, I have formed a hypothesis. I think this is about what a WFNGC bullet would do. If you look at a Gold Dot in profile, you will notice it has a similar shape. I think the hollow point clogged with wax, and essentially acted like a WFNGC. It seems to make sense that since a WFNGC will divert tissue at pretty much a 90 degree angle to the side (because of the 90 degree, flat nose), and since it will not change shape, the wound channel should be widest at the beginning (where velocity, the only variable, will be highest), and should taper down narrower and narrower to a bullet diameter hole as velocity is lost. That is exactly what the Gold Dot did.

We will see, as I plan to do tests of both FMJs and WFNGCs in the future, but I'm guessing both of those non-expanding bullets will exhibit similar wound profiles. Now, to the specifics. Max expansion was a massive .476", while minimum was a VERY respectable .415" (are you catching the sarcasm, because I'm laying it on pretty thick). Retained mass was 163.7gr. It penetrated the full 14.5" of the tube, and I actually think that the two petals that did slightly open actually did so upon striking the ground. I would bet that there was NO expansion in the tube.

Pictures: BTW, I don't know why the pics aren't appearing in the post, they should be. I guess you will just have to click on them as before. Maybe there are too many for one post.

Notice the cone or tornado-like shape of the wound channel.
10mm Reloading Forum

MASSIVE entrance hole
10mm Reloading Forum

SWEET expansion!!!
10mm Reloading Forum

10mm Reloading Forum

10mm Reloading Forum


165gr Gold Dot Water Jug Tests

Unlike the wax tube test, the water jug tests went perfectly. The first Gold Dot I shot into the water jugs was loaded with 10.8gr of 800-X (other components same as above). I would consider this a medium-hot load, and it seemed to suit the Gold Dot very well. Expansion was incredible. Max expansion measured 1.076", while minimum was .909". Retained mass was also excellent at 163.6gr. I understand why people love this round. However, it is not designed for full power 10mm use. See the next test.

Pictures:

10mm Reloading Forum

10mm Reloading Forum

10mm Reloading Forum


The second 165gr Gold Dot water jug test used 11.4gr of 800-X, which is nearing maximum. It was obviously over-driven, but stayed together well, and would likely have caused massive damage. Max expansion was .878", minimum was .597". Retained mass was 144.5gr. The bullet was somewhat mangled.

Pictures:

10mm Reloading Forum

10mm Reloading Forum

10mm Reloading Forum

Overall, I'm pretty impressed with the 165gr Gold Dot. However, it's inability to expand in the wax has me wondering. Who knows what that means for self-defense, but all I know is that I've never had a single bullet fail to expand in the wax tube, except for BOTH Gold Dots (165gr and 180gr). That might not mean anything in the real world, but it's reasonable doubt for me.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-18-2011 at 11:34..
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Old 06-04-2011, 19:55   #72
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10mm Reloading Forum

Still not working dammit!

Also, I will test the 180gr Starfire tomorrow, and then the 135gr Nosler JHP some time this week.

OH YEAH, I almost forgot!!! I also made videos of me shooting the wax tube and jugs today, and I'll post them on YouTube in a minute. I'll put a link here when I'm done.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 06-04-2011 at 20:07..
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Old 06-05-2011, 20:51   #73
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10mm Reloading Forum

Still not working dammit!

Also, I will test the 180gr Starfire tomorrow, and then the 135gr Nosler JHP some time this week.

OH YEAH, I almost forgot!!! I also made videos of me shooting the wax tube and jugs today, and I'll post them on YouTube in a minute. I'll put a link here when I'm done.
Cool stuff on the 165gr GD! Strange that you were able to plug that GD hole for no expansion.... wow. I didn't know if there was ANYTHING those GD's won't expand it. Must have been a fluke...

As for the water jug test.... yep... those 165's expand to over an INCH sometimes ... crazy little boogers.... I have a handloaded 165gr GD (reload) in my pistol mag right now (165gr GD at 1200+ fps) and I keep my other five magazines loaded with 180gr XTP's at 1150fps.... (BTW, I'm not CCW'ing the longslide so I'm not too worried about carrying reloads for my defense load. If someone breaks in, they are getting shot with what's in the pistol)
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Old 06-06-2011, 04:08   #74
21Carrier
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Crap! I just went wild at Midway USA's website. I ordered a Wolff guide rod, 17, 21, and 23lb springs, a set of Advantage Tactical Sights, a 10mm Lee Factory Crimp die and Bulge Buster kit, some Starline brass, and, most importantly to this thread, a box of 155gr Silvertips, and a box of 125gr Barnes TAC-XPs, plus a few other things. I forgot about some Remington Golden Sabers, so I might go back and order some, but I hate to pay for shipping twice. Maybe I'll just wait.

I was hoping they had some WFNGC bullets for testing, but the didn't. I ALMOST ordered a box of the Hunters' Supply 135gr Hard Cast Pentagon Hollow Points, but I didn't. They look pretty awesome, but the lack of gas checks scared me away. They claim to be good up to 1600fps, but I don't have an aftermarket barrel yet, and I'm not down with the lead in a Glock idea, even though they are "hard cast".

Hopefully the lighter 155gr Silvertips (compared to my earlier tests of the 175gr variant) and 125gr Barnes TAC-XPs will be here Wednesday (that's Midway's estimate), but my mail has been screwed up. I'm hoping the problem is just with the USPS and UPS will get it right. My roommate moved recently, and the post office is convinced I left, too. Apparently, my 32 trips to the post office to confirm my address have been in vain.

I'll let you guys know when I get them and am planning to test them. I'll test the 180gr Starfire tomorrow, and hopefully the 135gr Nosler JHP the next day or Wednesday. What do you guys think I should do for the Nosler? I'm expecting a small explosion, and consequently, I'm thinking about making a 6" diameter tube instead of my usual 4". I'm afraid the 4" tube might just blow apart. I would be PISSED! My only hesitation with doing the 6" tube is that the results could not be considered 100% relevant, at least in comparison to the 4" tube results.

Also, any help with the Barnes bullets loads would be appreciated. I only ordered one box of 40, so I'll definitely work them up safely, but I'm gonna need to start mid-range, not way down low due to the low quantity. I'm guessing I'll do the same as Shadow and start with data from other bullets based on length. For example, he's using data for 200gr XTPs, since his Barnes bullets are the same length. I think he has the 140gr and 155gr bullets, though. I'll have to wait and measure them.

Edit:
Well, hell!!! I just checked Midway's site again, and now it says the 125gr Barnes bullets are "out of stock". I swear, if they messed up I'll be VERY unhappy. On the other hand, if I got the last box, then . . .

Last edited by 21Carrier; 06-06-2011 at 04:33..
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Old 06-11-2011, 06:54   #75
21Carrier
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The two tests I've been anticipating the most (125gr Barnes TAC-XP and 135gr Nosler JHP) will be going down today. I will return with pictures and video later. I've got a gun show to go to, also. I've got one hell of a day planned!
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