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Old 05-24-2011, 17:56   #61
nickE10mm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
I know, I really wanted to add a perfectly opened Black Talon to my collection, but oh well. I really think XTPs are the best 10mm bullets out there, overall. I was browsing Midway the other night, and it's just crazy. They are ALWAYS available (even locally), they are cheaper than other, crappier bullets, they are accurate, expand reliably, did I mention cheap and available? Like we were talking about on the other thread, if they started making a 135gr XTP, I don't know if I'd even buy other bullets. Even some local, cheap FMJs (Magnus 180gr) are $44.00 for 250. The XTPs are $20 at the same store. So the XTPs are about $6 more per 250.
I'm thinking I can get a 155gr XTP up around 1500-1600fps from a 6" tube... but I don't really see any reason, however, I DO see a need to get 180-200gr loads up in the nuclear zone: hunting.

I am okay with 155gr XTP's for defense type situations ... or GD, GS, SXT, Ranger, ST, etc etc ... you don't really need too much for normal defense in most cases. Even if you can equal normal .40 ballistics in a defense load, you've got a 96-98% one shot stopper. Anything more is just fluff Love my 10mm for its versatility, though.
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Old 05-24-2011, 18:02   #62
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Oh, no doubt. I KNOW you could get the 155gr XTP that fast. Hell, I've seen chronograph data for 12.9gr of Blue Dot that says it will do 1450fps out of the G20's 4.6" barrel. When I tested that load in the wax tube, it was pretty impressive (and that was likely around 1350fps from my G29). That bullet at around 1600fps would be just downright nasty, even on deer/hogs.
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Old 05-24-2011, 18:13   #63
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I fully agree. I could take ANY 10mm/.40SW XTP and make it work for whatever I needed it to. Love my XTP's.
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Old 05-24-2011, 22:01   #64
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Very peculiar results for the Gold Dot. It almost looks as if the bullet went through sideways. The Black Talon did what I would have expected - big twisted metal with some shedding of mass. Can't argue with the results.

Very cool experiments. Thank you very much for bringing us along.

About the only two things on the wish list would be a WFNGC hardcast and maybe a Golden Saber.
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Old 05-24-2011, 23:07   #65
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Thanks, Taterhead. Next up will be the 165gr Gold Dot and 180gr Starfire. Then the 135gr Nosler. I am also planning to test an FMJ just for comparison's sake. I'll order some Golden Sabers and some WFNGCs sonetime soon and run them. If you want the test results sooner than a month from now, you can always mail me one or two bullets that you want tested and I'll do it. I'd prefer to have at least five to work up a bit, but if you can only spare one, that will have to do.
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Old 05-28-2011, 15:54   #66
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You're doing great work, 21c. Thanx a MM. Not sure tho which bullets match up with what photos. Is it possible to put a caption with them? Thanx again. I hope to have some test results of my own to upload shortly.
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Old 05-28-2011, 21:45   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hubcap500 View Post
You're doing great work, 21c. Thanx a MM. Not sure tho which bullets match up with what photos. Is it possible to put a caption with them? Thanx again. I hope to have some test results of my own to upload shortly.
I tried to keep them separated by putting the pics of the Gold Dot tube right after my description, but I can see how that last one was kind of confusing. I added captions to the last post with data (with the Black Talon and Gold Dot). If there are others that don't seem to make sense, let me know which post numbers they are and I'll clarify.

I'm sorry it's been a while since the last test. I will be doing the 165gr Gold Dot in a day or two, and likely the 180gr Starfire at the same time. The 135gr Nosler will be last.
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Old 06-04-2011, 10:58   #68
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Hey guys, sorry there's been such a lack of activity here on my part recently. Since my girlfriend and I just finished with the semester, she's been spending a bunch of time over here, and she gets jealous of the guns/wax tubes, especially when I stay up all night melting and pouring them. I'm doing a new test today, though. I'm either gonna do the 165gr Gold Dot or the 180gr Starfire. I still haven't decided. I'm waiting on the second wax tube to harden, and hopefully it will harden in time. If so, I'll do both today. If not, the second will have to wait for tomorrow.

Anyway, I was making all of my pictures (and some videos) into YouTube videos/slideshows because there were several people on there that really liked my video of the modified 200gr XTP wax tube test, and wanted more. While I was putting all of the videos/slideshows together, I had a chance to look back over the pictures and data. I have to say, there are two that stand head and shoulders above the rest, as far as wound volume and ideal wounding characteristics go.

One is the modified 200gr XTP. I figured it would be nice, but never dreamed it would work as well as it did. It made a 2-2.5" wide channel, and penetrated well. If I get a chance to, I'd love to try one on an animal, but for my first few hunting experiences, I'm gonna stick to the tried and true loads.

The most impressive, to me, was the Black Talon. I was shocked. I thought for sure that it would not live up to its hype. But the results speak for themselves. It made a wider channel than anything (about equal to the modified 200gr XTP), it released 6 chunks of lead that tore their own secondary wound channels, and then it penetrated over 15". It just seemed to have the best of everything: massive energy dump, secondary wounding, and DEEP penetration.

To put that penetration into perspective, I've seen reports of factory Silvertips (out of sub-4" barrels, like mine) penetrate to an average of 11" in ballistic gelatin. In my wax, the factory Silvertip stopped at 6". Using that as a guide, the Black Talon should have hit 27.5" in gelatin, and that's calculated with 15" of penetration in the wax even though it obviously would have gone further. Twenty years after its initial release, it still holds its own against its modern rivals. I wish they made a 200gr Ranger-T in .400".
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Old 06-04-2011, 11:36   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
Hey guys, sorry there's been such a lack of activity here on my part recently. Since my girlfriend and I just finished with the semester, she's been spending a bunch of time over here, and she gets jealous of the guns/wax tubes...
Its just the beginning muhahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa! lol (i went from having way too much time on my hands... to a manageable level.... and once I got married ... a bit less, even ... and then once she was prego, MUCH LESS.... and now that I have an 11mo old daughter ...coupled with school.... and the "jealousy" thing with my hobbies.... well, you can guess how much time I have. lol)


Quote:
I wish they made a 200gr Ranger-T in .400"...
Me too, my friend... me too!! A BONDED version, DESIGNED for 1200 FPS!
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Old 06-04-2011, 12:48   #70
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1st the engagement ring, then the wedding ring, then the suffering.

Teach her how to shoot and especially reload, that way you can keep shooting. <bseg> Seriously though, let her know how important it is to you up front.

Last edited by hubcap500; 06-04-2011 at 12:54..
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Old 06-04-2011, 19:51   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hubcap500 View Post
1st the engagement ring, then the wedding ring, then the suffering.

Teach her how to shoot and especially reload, that way you can keep shooting. <bseg> Seriously though, let her know how important it is to you up front.
Oh, she knows, and I've tried. She's SUCH a girly girl. Just the THOUGHT of guns sends shivers down her spine, which is odd since her dad was a state trap shooting champion. She's gotten used to them, and to me carrying 24/7. The carrying issue was tough, but I won! I guess I should cherish that singular victory. I have a feeling I'll be able to count such victories on one hand. I've taken her to shoot twice. The first time she wouldn't get out of the car. The second time, I got her to fire a seriously light load (5.5gr Unique/180gr FMJ), but only if I helped her hold the gun. All that persuading and begging got me ONE LOUSY SHOT! I might have gotten a few more out of her, but the mosquitos were HELLISH, and she sought refuge in the car.

I'll keep trying. But in the meantime, I have new test data for you guys!

165gr Gold Dot Wax Tube Test

Load: Rem nickel brass, CCI 300, 11.2gr 800-X, 165gr Gold Dot, COAL=1.260". All fired from my stock G29.

Update: this load chronographed a 10-shot velocity of 1367fps on 8/17/11.

Well, it seems the Gold Dot's design is not wax tube friendly. If you remember, my 180gr Gold Dot test ended with a slightly opened bullet. The 165gr Gold Dot was even worse. Only TWO of the six petals opened, and they only opened a TINY bit. However, the entrance hole to the wax tube was ENORMOUS! I think what is going on here, is that the Gold Dots require more internal hydraulic pressure to open than do other hollow point designs. This coupled with the reduced fluidity of my wax (as compared with tissue, gelatin, or water jugs), results in unopened bullets.

I also tested two 165gr Gold Dots in water jugs (one slower, one faster), and both opened perfectly. So it seems the wax is not ideal for opening a Gold Dot. Anyway, I feel the test was not a total bust. After realizing the bullet didn't open, and noticing an unusual cone or "tornado-like" shape to the wound channel, I have formed a hypothesis. I think this is about what a WFNGC bullet would do. If you look at a Gold Dot in profile, you will notice it has a similar shape. I think the hollow point clogged with wax, and essentially acted like a WFNGC. It seems to make sense that since a WFNGC will divert tissue at pretty much a 90 degree angle to the side (because of the 90 degree, flat nose), and since it will not change shape, the wound channel should be widest at the beginning (where velocity, the only variable, will be highest), and should taper down narrower and narrower to a bullet diameter hole as velocity is lost. That is exactly what the Gold Dot did.

We will see, as I plan to do tests of both FMJs and WFNGCs in the future, but I'm guessing both of those non-expanding bullets will exhibit similar wound profiles. Now, to the specifics. Max expansion was a massive .476", while minimum was a VERY respectable .415" (are you catching the sarcasm, because I'm laying it on pretty thick). Retained mass was 163.7gr. It penetrated the full 14.5" of the tube, and I actually think that the two petals that did slightly open actually did so upon striking the ground. I would bet that there was NO expansion in the tube.

Pictures: BTW, I don't know why the pics aren't appearing in the post, they should be. I guess you will just have to click on them as before. Maybe there are too many for one post.

Notice the cone or tornado-like shape of the wound channel.
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MASSIVE entrance hole
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SWEET expansion!!!
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165gr Gold Dot Water Jug Tests

Unlike the wax tube test, the water jug tests went perfectly. The first Gold Dot I shot into the water jugs was loaded with 10.8gr of 800-X (other components same as above). I would consider this a medium-hot load, and it seemed to suit the Gold Dot very well. Expansion was incredible. Max expansion measured 1.076", while minimum was .909". Retained mass was also excellent at 163.6gr. I understand why people love this round. However, it is not designed for full power 10mm use. See the next test.

Pictures:

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The second 165gr Gold Dot water jug test used 11.4gr of 800-X, which is nearing maximum. It was obviously over-driven, but stayed together well, and would likely have caused massive damage. Max expansion was .878", minimum was .597". Retained mass was 144.5gr. The bullet was somewhat mangled.

Pictures:

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Overall, I'm pretty impressed with the 165gr Gold Dot. However, it's inability to expand in the wax has me wondering. Who knows what that means for self-defense, but all I know is that I've never had a single bullet fail to expand in the wax tube, except for BOTH Gold Dots (165gr and 180gr). That might not mean anything in the real world, but it's reasonable doubt for me.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-18-2011 at 11:34..
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Old 06-04-2011, 19:55   #72
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Still not working dammit!

Also, I will test the 180gr Starfire tomorrow, and then the 135gr Nosler JHP some time this week.

OH YEAH, I almost forgot!!! I also made videos of me shooting the wax tube and jugs today, and I'll post them on YouTube in a minute. I'll put a link here when I'm done.

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Old 06-05-2011, 20:51   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
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Still not working dammit!

Also, I will test the 180gr Starfire tomorrow, and then the 135gr Nosler JHP some time this week.

OH YEAH, I almost forgot!!! I also made videos of me shooting the wax tube and jugs today, and I'll post them on YouTube in a minute. I'll put a link here when I'm done.
Cool stuff on the 165gr GD! Strange that you were able to plug that GD hole for no expansion.... wow. I didn't know if there was ANYTHING those GD's won't expand it. Must have been a fluke...

As for the water jug test.... yep... those 165's expand to over an INCH sometimes ... crazy little boogers.... I have a handloaded 165gr GD (reload) in my pistol mag right now (165gr GD at 1200+ fps) and I keep my other five magazines loaded with 180gr XTP's at 1150fps.... (BTW, I'm not CCW'ing the longslide so I'm not too worried about carrying reloads for my defense load. If someone breaks in, they are getting shot with what's in the pistol)
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Old 06-06-2011, 04:08   #74
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Crap! I just went wild at Midway USA's website. I ordered a Wolff guide rod, 17, 21, and 23lb springs, a set of Advantage Tactical Sights, a 10mm Lee Factory Crimp die and Bulge Buster kit, some Starline brass, and, most importantly to this thread, a box of 155gr Silvertips, and a box of 125gr Barnes TAC-XPs, plus a few other things. I forgot about some Remington Golden Sabers, so I might go back and order some, but I hate to pay for shipping twice. Maybe I'll just wait.

I was hoping they had some WFNGC bullets for testing, but the didn't. I ALMOST ordered a box of the Hunters' Supply 135gr Hard Cast Pentagon Hollow Points, but I didn't. They look pretty awesome, but the lack of gas checks scared me away. They claim to be good up to 1600fps, but I don't have an aftermarket barrel yet, and I'm not down with the lead in a Glock idea, even though they are "hard cast".

Hopefully the lighter 155gr Silvertips (compared to my earlier tests of the 175gr variant) and 125gr Barnes TAC-XPs will be here Wednesday (that's Midway's estimate), but my mail has been screwed up. I'm hoping the problem is just with the USPS and UPS will get it right. My roommate moved recently, and the post office is convinced I left, too. Apparently, my 32 trips to the post office to confirm my address have been in vain.

I'll let you guys know when I get them and am planning to test them. I'll test the 180gr Starfire tomorrow, and hopefully the 135gr Nosler JHP the next day or Wednesday. What do you guys think I should do for the Nosler? I'm expecting a small explosion, and consequently, I'm thinking about making a 6" diameter tube instead of my usual 4". I'm afraid the 4" tube might just blow apart. I would be PISSED! My only hesitation with doing the 6" tube is that the results could not be considered 100% relevant, at least in comparison to the 4" tube results.

Also, any help with the Barnes bullets loads would be appreciated. I only ordered one box of 40, so I'll definitely work them up safely, but I'm gonna need to start mid-range, not way down low due to the low quantity. I'm guessing I'll do the same as Shadow and start with data from other bullets based on length. For example, he's using data for 200gr XTPs, since his Barnes bullets are the same length. I think he has the 140gr and 155gr bullets, though. I'll have to wait and measure them.

Edit:
Well, hell!!! I just checked Midway's site again, and now it says the 125gr Barnes bullets are "out of stock". I swear, if they messed up I'll be VERY unhappy. On the other hand, if I got the last box, then . . .

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Old 06-11-2011, 06:54   #75
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The two tests I've been anticipating the most (125gr Barnes TAC-XP and 135gr Nosler JHP) will be going down today. I will return with pictures and video later. I've got a gun show to go to, also. I've got one hell of a day planned!
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Old 06-11-2011, 08:06   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
The two tests I've been anticipating the most (125gr Barnes TAC-XP and 135gr Nosler JHP) will be going down today. I will return with pictures and video later. I've got a gun show to go to, also. I've got one hell of a day planned!
Enjoy!
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Old 06-11-2011, 09:10   #77
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Sounds good 21, I'm really interested in the Barnes 125
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Old 06-11-2011, 14:42   #78
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The barnes data for 10mm Auto and the 125 XPB is here...

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/...BarnesData.png

Lists most accurate is 7.2 gr win 231 but a bit weak.
Fasted listed is 10.4 of power pistol at 1520 FPS
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Old 06-11-2011, 15:17   #79
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1520 fps sounds nice.

I've never tried it,but,I've heard Power Pistol has a lot of flash in some other loads, what do you guys' think?

Flash defeats the purpose of a S.D. load in my opinion.

Course I'll wait and see what 21 comes up with.
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Old 06-11-2011, 20:23   #80
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Ok guys, here's the data. First the Barnes TAC-XP.

125gr Barnes TAC-XP Wax Tube and Water Jug Tests

The load used in tests was: new Starline brass, Unique 8.6gr, CCI 300, 125gr Barnes TAC-XP, COAL 1.250".

Update: this load chronographed a 7-shot average of 1289fps on 8/4/11. HUGELY disappointing.

All testing done with Glock 29, stock barrel, 23lb Wolff spring/rod.

Ok, so I did a work-up using Unique with the Barnes bullets. I chose Unique because I had it laying around, and it was the second best powder in Barnes's data (behind Power Pistol). I started at 7.8gr, and worked up to 8.6gr (0.2gr above Barnes's max). These ALL felt like very light loads. I don't know if it's the hard copper bullet not sealing well, or the light weight, or what, but after shooting the Barnes, and switching to the 135gr Noslers (with 13.0gr 800-X), the over-max Barnes loads felt like powder-puff loads. I was in a hurry after the tests, so I'll have to measure and record case expansion, but I always measure it "in field" as I'm working up, and I can tell you that even the 8.6gr load was WAY under my max expansion of .435". It was near .432-.433". So it seems they can be pushed a good bit further, though I am not sure if Unique will exhibit nasty pressure spikes with a little more powder.

Anyway, for the data that you all want to hear. In the wax tube, the Barnes achieved near perfect mass retention of 124.8gr (I doubt it lost mass, that bullet was probably just light). It's max expansion was .653", minimum was .624". The petals had folded back a bit, so it was likely around .800"+ at some point. Penetration was a good 10.75", and the wound cavity had a max diameter of just under 2". It also had a really cool cone shape as the petals opened then folded back. You can also see spirals cut into the wax as it spun.

In the water jugs, it penetrated two jugs fully, and entered the third. Mass retention was again a perfect 125.0gr. Max expansion checked in at .669", while minimum was .645". It looked almost identical to the wax tube bullet.

Pictures of Barnes 125gr TAC-XP:

Loaded and ready to go, plus some unloaded bullets.
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Comparison of Barnes's length, from left to right: 135gr Nosler, 155gr Hornady XTP, 155gr Silvertip, 125gr Barnes TAC-XP, 165gr Gold Dot, 175gr Silvertip, 180gr Gold Dot.
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Wax tube pics:
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Notice the swirling grooves from the bullet spinning.
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For the next three pics, the bullet on left is wax tube bullet, right is the water jug bullet.
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135gr Nosler Wax Tube and Water Jug Test

Load used in tests: new Starline brass, CCI 300, 13.0gr 800-X, Nosler 135gr JHP, COAL 1.260".

Update: this load chronographed a 6-shot average of 1561fps on 8/4/11.

WOW, WOW, WOW, HOLY CRAP!!! I knew this would be the KE allstar and would likely shine in the wound cavity department, but it absolutely DESTROYED everything else. NO CONTEST. It had adequate penetration, to boot (if you assume that gel/tissue penetration is about 1.8 times that of wax penetration). The 135gr Nosler blew a FIST sized hole in the wax tube, and annihilated the cardboard tube. It was gnarly. What surprised me the most, however, was that it was NOT totally "frag-nasty". It definitely shed mass, but it did not vaporize as I had thought it would, nor did it even lose its jacket.

In the wax, penetration was right at 8", so assume about 14-15" in tissue. Max expansion was .897", min was .554". Retained mass was 67.9gr. The wound cavity was nearly FOUR INCHES in diameter. The tube, by the way, was only 4.5" in diameter. I could fit my fist in the hole.

In water, it destroyed, no VAPORIZED, the first jug, and was found in the second. It had 66.8gr of mass left, and had expanded to .747" (min of .616"). I have no doubt this would be a formidable SD round. I don't care what anyone says. If you hit torso, it's gonna be UGLY. If you hit an outstretched arm, it's gonna be hanging by a thread, if not lying on the ground. The stretch cavity was wider than my forearm.

Pictures of 135gr Nosler:

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Check out the fist-sized hole!
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Again, in the next three pics, the bullet on the left is from the wax tube, the bullet on the right is from the jug test.
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OK, the pics are up, but for some reason, AGAIN, they are not showing up in the thread. Again, they are posting as links. This is really aggravating me. Sometimes my Photobucket pics will copy and paste right into the thread, but sometimes they won't. Any ideas on how to fix it? BTW, I'm copying the IMG code, and pasting that. Isn't that what I'm supposed to do?

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-05-2011 at 06:58..
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