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Old 06-11-2011, 20:45   #81
_The_Shadow
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21Carrier, Sounds like you were all fired up with this latest test and thanks for a great report! I'll be patient for the pics!
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Old 06-11-2011, 21:21   #82
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Shadow, the pics are up. I WAS fired up for this one. I also have video of all of it, but it will have to be edited and all, so I'll have it up soon. I also have video of the 165gr Gold Dot test and 180gr Starfire tests, but I've been having problems uploading the 165gr Gold Dot video, so I'll see what I can do. I'll try to get them all up tomorrow.

Also, my friend and I just found the most AMAZING place to go shoot. There's a trail (off-road trail) that goes down into the woods starting right where we have always gone to shoot. We never went down there simply because I always drive, and I drive a Mustang, which is not exactly off-road friendly. My mom recently had a stroke (it's ok, not too bad) and lost some vision, so she doesn't drive anymore, at least for a while. So we took her Mercedes ML430 (I know, sweet off-roading vehicle, but it actually performed admirably) down there, and there is the most amazing lake and place to shoot. It's in the middle of nowhere, but actually in the middle of a suburb of Birmingham. It's really weird. There's no civilization for about 1.5-2 miles in any direction, but after that, it is SURROUNDED by cities. Still, this virgin paradise persists right in the middle of it all. It's really cool. It's only 10 minutes from home, not including the drive down the off-road trail, and is beautiful and remote. PERFECT.
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Old 06-11-2011, 22:12   #83
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21 Carrier:

This has been a really intereresting quest to follow. Thank you for the great detail. This was the most interesting so far, in my opinion.

The Barnes bullet results are intriguing. It would be really cool to have an idea about the velocity. I loaded my first batch using Longshot (range results to follow) under some XTPs and it seemed to consume very little case volume. I wonder if Longshot would be suitable for the long 125 Barnes.

I have gone back and forth over the years with that 135 gr Nolser JHP. It is explosive. Obviously. Impressive energy. On the other hand, I have been offput by how badly it sheds mass. I have wondered how they would respond to hitting clothing, bone or other non-hydraulic mass. But crap, you can't argue with the results that you showed. 13 gr of 800-X would no doubt have that thing MOVING.
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Old 06-11-2011, 22:59   #84
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Quote:
OK, the pics are up, but for some reason, AGAIN, they are not showing up in the thread. Again, they are posting as links. This is really aggravating me. Sometimes my Photobucket pics will copy and paste right into the thread, but sometimes they won't. Any ideas on how to fix it? BTW, I'm copying the IMG code, and pasting that. Isn't that what I'm supposed to do?
I have the same issue man... Not sure why or how it decides whether to show the photo inline versus as a link.. Weird.

Anyways, awesome stuff!!!! THANK YOU FOR YOUR WRITE UP HERE! Extremely good information....
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Old 06-12-2011, 08:31   #85
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21Carrier,

Thank you for all this information on these different bullets you been testing. This stuff is AWESOME! I was leaning towards 200gr XTP's for deer but now I'm rethinking this.
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Old 06-12-2011, 16:45   #86
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No problem guys, I really enjoy doing it. Like I've said before, I'd be doing it anyway, but having a place to share it and having people that are actually interested in the results gives it more purpose, and keeps me on track (instead of procrastinating).

Taterhead, I don't know what Barnes used to decide on powder choices, but I would think that some of the great 10mm powders might be better, although they may just be too slow or bulky. That would include Longshot, 800-X, and maybe others. All I know is even my over max 8.6gr Unique run felt VERY weak. And as I mentioned, case expansion was on par with light 800-X or Blue Dot loads (a good bit under my personal max/stopping point).

One thing that I think may hinder these bullets is how copper is so hard. I'm thinking the hard copper (as opposed to a soft lead core) is not deforming enough to create a good gas seal. Maybe not, but it seems that way. When crimping them, it was obvious they are much harder than lead bullets. They were getting stuck in my Lee FCD, because the copper bullet wouldn't compress during crimping like lead does. Also, Barnes data lists COAL as 1.250", so we should be able to seat them a little shallower and get some extra case capacity, though the extra capacity might not increase powder burn efficiency. Once I get a Lone Wolf barrel and some more TAC-XPs in a couple of weeks, I'll push the Unique a little further, and mess with some Power Pistol. I'll also have a chronograph by then, so I'll post some velocity results. I'll also try 800-X, among others.

As soon as I get the chronograph, I'll go back and duplicate every load I shot over the course of this thread, and post velocity data. That will let us know what was going on better. The only bullet that I won't be able to re-shoot for velocity will be the Black Talon (unless someone has a single BT they want to send me).

Getting back to the subject of that 135gr Nosler, there's several reasons I believe it would perform well in a SD situation. First, is obviously the wax test results. Second, is the YouTube video of the guy shooting the cow heart with Double Tap's 135gr Nosler loading. If you've never seen that, it would put to rest many of your concerns. That bullet punches through leather, 8 layers of towel, a rack of ribs (though it missed bone), a plastic pitcher with gelatin and a cow heart, then stopped in a laundry detergent jug filled with water. The damage to the cow heart was massive. It was the kind of damage that would drop a perp cold.

With a shot to the heart, he would be dead before he hit the floor (figuratively, even with no heartbeat/blood pressure, he'd last a few seconds). A human heart is a good bit smaller than a cow heart, and that cow heart was nearly blown in two. Your heart is roughly the size of your fist, and my fist fit in the wound cavity left by the 135 Nosler. Think about that. Also realize that the wax cavity would likely have been bigger, but I had SERIOUSLY reinforced that area of the tube trying to prevent it from blowing to pieces. It still came VERY close to blowing apart. The cardboard tube and tape was shredded.

Finally, the last piece of evidence for the 135gr Nosler is Massad Ayoob's reports of its field record. This round has been used extensively by LEOs in CorBon's 135gr .40S&W loading. Mas reports that it has been devastating to perps. He says that it has a very characteristic short (like 9-11") but WIDE wound channel. This is exactly what we see in the wax tube. He also says that it has a high percentage of one-shot-stops. Now, it's debatable whether added velocity would help the situation, as that .40S&W load is already moving at 1300fps. I would argue it WOULD help. It would bring more KE with it, but others would likely argue that it would shed more mass and penetrate less. Perhaps, but the 1300fps .40S&W load is already expanding explosively, or it would be creating a normal wound channel. In my testing experience, the only bullets that created really wide, shallowish channels are ones that expand explosively. So, following that logic, we see that even at .40S&W levels, the 135 Nosler is already being explosive and performing well. So, I would think more velocity is not going to hurt, it's just going to give that remaining 67gr of core more energy to keep penetrating.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 06-12-2011 at 16:49..
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Old 06-12-2011, 17:51   #87
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This is interesting stuff.

I always thought the XPBs needed the rings that the rifle bullets have. Especially the long ones. Helps them seat and go down the barrel a little faster, less friction etc.

Barnes bullets are great for hunting, but I would not use them for self defense in a 10mm or a magnum. Probably go through the bad guy and a wall or two before it stops.

The 135 nosler sounds like a perfect self defense bullet.
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Old 06-13-2011, 17:02   #88
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Seems to be little difference in expansion between wax and water. Is there much difference in penetration? I realize you can't measure the water, but roughly guesstimate the distance by # of jugs. Any velocity info?

I've shot some 135 N's into water, but didn't have the same kind of expansion. Lower velocity perhaps...or softer water
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Old 06-13-2011, 23:29   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hubcap500 View Post
Seems to be little difference in expansion between wax and water. Is there much difference in penetration? I realize you can't measure the water, but roughly guesstimate the distance by # of jugs. Any velocity info?

I've shot some 135 N's into water, but didn't have the same kind of expansion. Lower velocity perhaps...or softer water
I know, I was pretty amazed at how similar the water and wax bullets were. It has seemed to be a pretty consistent theme, however, that the two media yield pretty similar results. If I was only after the slugs, I wouldn't bother with the wax. But being able to capture the wound tract and measure penetration is just too cool.

Penetration in the water jugs was about the same. The core was found in the second jug. I think 2-liter bottles are about 7" in diameter, so I would say about 8-10" of penetration.

I'll be testing the 155gr Silvertip soon. It's my last viable SD bullet that I have to test. There are others out there, but it's the last one I have. I have high hopes for it, as it may become my new carry round if it performs as expected. I'm not sure whether to use 800-X or Blue Dot, so I may test each powder. I think the faster 800-X should push it faster in my short barrel.

Since I have two tubes ready to go, I'll likely also test a Zero 165gr JHP with the second (if I don't test the 155gr Silvertip in both to compare 800-X and BD). After that, I'll combine the two tubes to make a 30" tube and test a 180gr FMJ. Then, I'll start with the "simulated animal" tubes.
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Old 06-14-2011, 23:52   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
The 135gr Nosler blew a FIST sized hole in the wax tube, and annihilated the cardboard tube.
Very nice! I wonder how far away from the test sight you may have had to search for wax fragments if the reinforced cardboard shell wouldn't have been barely still holding everything together?

So much for the jokers who suggest as fact that all handgun rounds wound the same, doing no more than "poking" holes. Wonder how the same load would have done from a 6" tube. BTW, AWESOME thread!!! Haven't missed a word.

Quote:
BTW, I'm copying the IMG code, and pasting that. Isn't that what I'm supposed to do?[/B]
Yes, it is what you're supposed to do. It's what I do and it works fine for me always. Just a wild guess, but in photobucket you have some control over privacy/security settings for each individual album you create. Maybe somehow you can change a setting with the album you have the pics in, therefore possibly allowing them to show up. Don't really know for sure as I don't mess with photobucket a whole lot, but maybe that will at least give you one possibility to look into.
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:45   #91
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Thanks for the praise! I would love to see what that round would do from a 6" barrel, too. Plus, that was 13.0gr of 800-X, and I know several people push it to 14.0+gr. I also would like to see what the destruction would be like with a wider wax tube, maybe 6". I believe the tube was too narrow to fully capture the destruction. It blew the tube open all around, and several small pieces of wax went flying off into the woods. The wound channel was about 4" in diameter, and the tube was only 4.3" in diameter. If the tube's walls had not been there to contain the blast, I'm thinking we would have seen a 5-6" chamber. All I know is that is one NASTY round.
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Old 06-15-2011, 06:50   #92
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135 Nosler

From the 4 1/2" bbl., the 13.3gr. load yields 1700 fps average - and doesn't deviate much from that speed. It offers a consistent 866 fpe. (measured at 15' from the muzzle).

I expect it would go 1640 out of the stock G29. I would expect with 13 grains, you're going to be at around 1600 fps. The Nosler apparently holds together a little better at that speed.

It is beginning to become fairly clear to me that 135 is the "right" weight for a .40/10mm projectile.

Nosler is pretty close to perfection - but they need to stiffen their bullets just a little.

I think it would be plenty devastating for deer-sized game.
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Old 06-15-2011, 06:55   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickE10mm View Post
I have the same issue man... Not sure why or how it decides whether to show the photo inline versus as a link.. Weird.

Anyways, awesome stuff!!!! THANK YOU FOR YOUR WRITE UP HERE! Extremely good information....
The 10mm reloading forum isn't set up for the pictures to be in the thread.

The 10 ring is.
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:52   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
Thanks for the praise! I would love to see what that round would do from a 6" barrel, too. Plus, that was 13.0gr of 800-X, and I know several people push it to 14.0+gr. I also would like to see what the destruction would be like with a wider wax tube, maybe 6". I believe the tube was too narrow to fully capture the destruction. It blew the tube open all around, and several small pieces of wax went flying off into the woods. The wound channel was about 4" in diameter, and the tube was only 4.3" in diameter. If the tube's walls had not been there to contain the blast, I'm thinking we would have seen a 5-6" chamber. All I know is that is one NASTY round.
My SD ammo for the G20 is the Factory Corbon 135gr. The box says 1400fps so I could bring some out when you are testing again. Might help with recommendations for people who aren't mad scientists.
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:51   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegs View Post
The 10mm reloading forum isn't set up for the pictures to be in the thread.

The 10 ring is.
AHHHH that makes sense... thanks Kegs
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Old 06-15-2011, 14:17   #96
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Originally Posted by Kegs View Post
From the 4 1/2" bbl., the 13.3gr. load yields 1700 fps average - and doesn't deviate much from that speed. It offers a consistent 866 fpe. (measured at 15' from the muzzle).

I expect it would go 1640 out of the stock G29. I would expect with 13 grains, you're going to be at around 1600 fps. The Nosler apparently holds together a little better at that speed.

It is beginning to become fairly clear to me that 135 is the "right" weight for a .40/10mm projectile.

Nosler is pretty close to perfection - but they need to stiffen their bullets just a little.

I think it would be plenty devastating for deer-sized game.
Thanks, Kegs. That's good to know. I agree that the Noslers would likely work on deer sized game. I should have a chronograph soon, and I'll retest all the loads for velocity. I'm thinking about filling in the Nosler's hollow point with tiny amounts of lead. Maybe do 3-4 tests, starting with 1mm of lead, moving up in 1mm increments. I wonder if that would help reduce expansion. I would think that reducing the depth of the nose cavity would reduce expansion speed. I guess we will see. I'll do it some day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegs View Post
The 10mm reloading forum isn't set up for the pictures to be in the thread.

The 10 ring is.
That makes sense. Thanks, that was driving me crazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTRhino24 View Post
My SD ammo for the G20 is the Factory Corbon 135gr. The box says 1400fps so I could bring some out when you are testing again. Might help with recommendations for people who aren't mad scientists.
That sounds great, I'm always up for testing more 10mm ammo. I wish I had saved a round of the 10mm Pow'RBall stuff. It felt really weak, and chronograph results I've seen for them are dismal. I'd still like to see what some factory stuff does. So much stuff to test, so little time!
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Old 06-15-2011, 21:14   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegs View Post
The 10mm reloading forum isn't set up for the pictures to be in the thread.

The 10 ring is.
Had no idea. That sucks.

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Old 06-17-2011, 02:10   #98
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I went to test some 155gr Winchester Silvertips today, but left my wax tubes at home. NOT HAPPY!!! Anyway, here are some water jug test results.

155gr Silvertip Water Jug Test

This is my bid for a carry load. Currently I carry 175gr Silvertips that should be doing around 1250fps from my G29. I like them because they are VERY tough bullets. They are definitely designed for 10mm velocities, as they were based on the .41 and .44 Magnum Silvertips. I have pushed them to hell and back, and they always come back in one piece. At most they lose a petal of their jacket.

However, I wanted a lighter, faster bullet for SD work. So, the 155gr Silvertip sounded great. Visually, the 155gr bullets have a wider hollow point, and less of a sleek XTP like ogive. They are closer to a 165gr Gold Dot in profile, so feed reliability testing will be a must. I tried to push these as fast as possible to test their toughness. I used both Blue Dot and 800-X.

FreakShow10mm, a member here that doesn't get on much anymore says that he has chronographed 155gr XTPs over 12.5gr Blue Dot at an average of 1399fps. That was out of a 4" barrel. I used 13.2gr out of a 3.78" barrel, so I'm guessing 1425-1450fps. The 800-X loads came in two flavors: 11.8gr and 12.0gr. Both seemed to be running faster than the BD load (as per the results), so I'm guessing around 1500fps. These might be high guesses, but I think they should be ballpark, if not spot on. Other load specifics are: CCI 300s, new Starline brass, COAL 1.260". Fired from a Glock 29 with stock barrel and 23lb Wolff recoil spring.

Update: the Blue Dot load (13.2gr) chronographed a 5-shot average of 1271fps on 8/4/11. Very disappointing.

The 800-X load (11.8gr) chronographed a 5-shot average of 1318fps. Still disappointing, but better.


First the Blue Dot load. This gave me EXACTLY what I wanted to see. I hate the ENORMOUS flash of this load, or it would be my new carry load (OK, I LOVE the enormous flash/bang for range terrorizing, just not as a carry round powder). Expansion was perfect. I can't imagine better expansion from anything. If you think about it, the ideal projectile would be something wide and flat. Remember that old hollowpoint called the "flying ashtray" (I forget which bullet it was), well this looks just like a "flying ashtray".

Max expansion was .765", while minimum was .735", but it was PERFECTLY flat, and damn near perfectly circular. BEAUTIFUL expansion. I can't wait to see the wax results. Retained mass was 124.7gr, as the jacket separated. With the jacket, retained mass was 148.3gr (it lost one petal).

Here are the pictures:

10mm Reloading Forum

How would you like to get hit by a broad-side penny doing 1450fps?
10mm Reloading Forum

10mm Reloading Forum

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The 800-X loads seemed to be just a tad too fast. Both of these loads blew apart 135gr Nosler style. All I found of the 12.0gr load was two pieces: the core, and some torn off pieces of expanded lead. The jacket was all over the place in little pieces. The 11.8gr load came apart, too. I found pretty much all of it, though.

The 11.8gr and 12.0gr loadings of 800-X ended up with a core of 61.8gr and 61.6gr, respectively. The cores measured .490" and .580". You can see all the shrapnel associated with the 11.8gr load.

I am going to tone this 800-X load down a bit for the wax tube test. I'm guessing maybe 11.6gr. Here's my problem. Hornady's manual says that 12.9gr of Blue Dot will do 1450fps, but 11.5gr 800-X will only achieve 1350fps. WTF? That 800-X number HAS to be wrong. I was .3gr over max with Blue Dot, and .3gr over max with 800-X (with the 11.8gr load). How is that extra .3gr of 800-X surpassing the 100fps lead Hornady says Blue Dot has?! GOD, I CAN'T WAIT FOR MY CHRONO!!!!!!!!

Also, 11.5gr of 800-X FEELS more powerful than 12.9gr of Blue Dot, yet Hornady claims the BD load makes 100fps more. Maybe the BD loads are just getting SERIOUSLY slowed down by my short barrel, and 800-X does better with my barrel length. Whatever the case, it seems odd.

Anyway, here is the picture of the 11.8gr load:

10mm Reloading Forum

And the 12.0gr load (what I found of it):

10mm Reloading Forum


In the end, I think I will wait for the wax tests, but I think this will be a SOLID SD carry round. I would like to tone down the 800-X load to about the same velocity as the BD load. I'd rather the lower flash of 800-X in a carry round. I should have the wax results in a day or two, then the "bear tube" SHOULD be a go. I might have to wait a couple of weeks to do that, though, as I'm not sure how expensive the required organs/bones/hide will be. We will see!

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-05-2011 at 07:03..
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Old 06-17-2011, 07:39   #99
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Good stuff 21, I'm sure the "bear tube" will be a hoot. I'm looking forward to the velocity readings too.

The 155 Silvertip/800x might be promising.
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Old 06-17-2011, 08:42   #100
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I plan to try some tests using wax tubes and my .45 with its 3.14" barrel.

I'm very curious to see how different rounds act out of such a short barrel.

So far I have 230 gr. Hornady XTP, 185 gr. Winchester Silvertip, and a couple of 230 gr. FMJ rounds - all factory.

I also plan to pick up some Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel, Cor-Bon Pow'rBall, and WWB Personal Defense.

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