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Old 06-18-2011, 21:52   #101
Taterhead
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Sticky! Sticky! Sticky! Sticky! Sticky! Sticky! Sticky!

By the way.... I vote that we make this thread a sticky.
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Old 06-18-2011, 22:38   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eracer View Post
I plan to try some tests using wax tubes and my .45 with its 3.14" barrel.

I'm very curious to see how different rounds act out of such a short barrel.

So far I have 230 gr. Hornady XTP, 185 gr. Winchester Silvertip, and a couple of 230 gr. FMJ rounds - all factory.

I also plan to pick up some Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel, Cor-Bon Pow'rBall, and WWB Personal Defense.
That should be interesting. I am going to start doing some .45ACP testing out of my G21SF soon. My only question is whether to post it here, or move it to a .45ACP forum. It will be cool to see the difference between the different barrel lengths. I will also test the XTPs, Pow'RBalls, some DPX, and I'd love to try the Silvertips, but I can't find them as components anymore. I think Midway quit selling them, so I hope they didn't get discontinued.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
Sticky! Sticky! Sticky! Sticky! Sticky! Sticky! Sticky!

By the way.... I vote that we make this thread a sticky.
Thanks, Taterhead. I'd love to see this thread get stickied. It would definitely make me feel all "warm and fuzzy". I doubt it will happen, though, as we seem to not have a moderator anymore.

EDIT: I will test two 155gr Silvertips in the wax tubes tomorrow. I will test both the 13.2gr Blue Dot load, and the 11.8gr 800-X load. The winner will likely become my carry load. That is, after a thorough accuracy and feeding test.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 06-18-2011 at 23:16..
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Old 06-18-2011, 23:18   #103
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MakeMineA10MM comes and goes. I'm sure he'll pop back in before too long. I certainly hope so because he is a good one to learn from.
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Old 06-20-2011, 02:12   #104
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155gr Winchester Silvertip Wax Tube Tests (2 loads)

I finally got a chance to get out and test the 155gr Silvertips. The loads used were as follows: BLUE TUBE - New Starline brass, CCI 300, 13.2gr Blue Dot, COAL 1.260"; PINK TUBE - New Starline brass, CCI 300, 11.8gr 800-X, COAL 1.260". The temperature outside was like 101* with a ****-ton of humidity, if that helps.

Update: the 13.2gr Blue Dot load chronographed a 5-shot average of 1271fps on 8/4/11, while the 11.8gr 800-X load had a 5-shot average of 1318fps.

I am very happy with the results. Silvertips (in both 155gr and 175gr) are made to stop fast. There is very little concern of over-penetration with these bullets. A factory 175gr Silvertip penetrates about 11" in ballistic gelatin out of my gun. That equated to 6" in my wax. These 155gr bullets are similar, but the extra 300+fps over the factory 175gr Silvertips helped both penetration and expansion. These bullets are made of very tough lead (like the XTPs), and open just like a parachute. They open like nothing else I've seen.

Here's the data:

Blue Dot load:
Penetration was a decent 8". That should equate to about 15" in ballistic gelatin. Expansion was awesome, with max expansion being .901", min .785". Jacket separation occurred, but only as I lifted the bullet out of the tube. Retained mass with the jacket was 148.5gr, or 124.3gr without. The wound channel measured over 2.5" at its widest.

Pictures:

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Note: the weird little thing in the center of the tube is NOT from the bullet. I put too much wax in the tube at once, and as it dried, it formed a hole, then I filled it in.
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800-X load:
Pentration for the 800-X load also stopped right about 8". Again, expect around 15" in gelatin. Expansion was great, though slightly less than the Blue Dot load. The bullet looked as if it had over-expanded slightly, as it was domed back instead of having that characteristic flat Silvertip look. Maximum expansion was .807", minimum came in at .620" due to several missing petals. Mass retention was a weaker 118.6gr due to some fragmentation. Retention was nearly perfect at 154.3gr when the five pieces of jacket and two lead petals were included. The wound channel measured an even 2" at its widest point.

800-X load pics:

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I have decided that this will be my new carry bullet, though the charge is not yet decided upon. Blue Dot is too flashy, and the 11.8gr of 800-X is just overkill. I'm thinking 11.2-11.5gr should get me there. I would love to duplicate the exact velocity of that Blue Dot load, because it was the PERFECT velocity for this bullet. In both water and wax, the Blue Dot load gave perfectly expanded bullets.

This week/weekend I'll do some feed reliability tests and accuracy tests to further sort out the load issue. I have decided on this load, because I believe it to be the ideal balance of speed, energy, penetration, expansion, toughness, wound profile, vampire/werewolf-slaying ability, and silver bullets just look cool. This bullet gave the second widest wound channel, behind only the 135gr Nosler, and slightly better than the Black Talon. Penetration should be more than sufficient. It has lots of velocity (should be about 1400-1450 in my G29), but holds together well enough to penetrate the arm of an attacker and keep going. Finally, I think it is the least likely to blow straight through an attacker and hurt someone else.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-05-2011 at 07:04..
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Old 06-20-2011, 06:29   #105
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Years ago, someone did "live" testing on feral dogs and the Silvertip, 175 I believe came out on top and this was with factory ammo.

As usual good stuff 21. I'm looking forward to you (and me) getting chrono's.
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Old 06-20-2011, 07:11   #106
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Got to hand it to you Carrier, your starting to look like a Ballistician!
Once again great data. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 06-20-2011, 09:14   #107
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21,

You are a man with a passion for sure.
I am still interested in trying out the 125 gr XPB on small hogs and have a question.

I intend to upgrade to a 6" bbl soon. I see your test was with a Glock 29 so if I run some numbers in QL and run a hot load, out of a 6" bbl I should be able to get 1600-1650 fps.

Your load should have been running at about 1420 fps
with 10" of wax tube penetration.

What would be your guess on the penetration at about 1600-1650 fps would be.
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:09   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tammons View Post
21,

You are a man with a passion for sure.
I am still interested in trying out the 125 gr XPB on small hogs and have a question.

I intend to upgrade to a 6" bbl soon. I see your test was with a Glock 29 so if I run some numbers in QL and run a hot load, out of a 6" bbl I should be able to get 1600-1650 fps.

Your load should have been running at about 1420 fps
with 10" of wax tube penetration.

What would be your guess on the penetration at about 1600-1650 fps would be.
Well, to just think it out in a "stream of consciousness" type of way, let's see. The penetration for the 125gr Barnes was just short of 11", so I'll just call it that. Through comparing my penetration numbers to those of quality ballistic gel tests from similar barrel lengths, I've extrapolated a rough conversion factor of 1.8. So, going by that, I'd assume a 125gr Barnes TAC-XP would penetrate around 19.8", assuming no bones were hit. (You know, all of this assuming has me thinking that I really need to get a BB gun once I get my chrono, so I can get a better idea of a penetration conversion factor).

An increase from 1420fps to 1620fps would be a 14% increase in velocity. Assuming the relationship between velocity and penetration is linear (that's a big assumption, and you know what they say about assumption), you can add on another 14% of penetration. That would equate to 22.6".

However, there are other things to consider. The two main things that will determine penetration are momentum and frontal area/shape (not accounting for bone hits). Momentum is a function of velocity, so penetration should increase as velocity does (assuming the extra velocity does not cause MORE expansion. In that case, penetration may actually be less. Given my tests show some over-expansion already around 1400fps, this should not be a problem). The frontal area of the bullet, or coefficient of drag is going to get pretty tricky. I believe my velocity of 1420fps (or so) was already slightly beyond the bullet's ideal velocity. I say this because the petals were folded back too far. Pushing it even further should lay the petals back even further onto the shank, decreasing frontal area and drag, and increasing penetration.

Basically, all of this is a fancy way to say, "I have no idea, but I'll give it a guess". My best guess for a 125gr TAC-XP doing 1600+fps would be around 20-25" of penetration, maybe more. Less if you hit bone. I think the barnes bullet would do a good job of drilling through a superficial bone. However, if you hit a deep bone, and the bullet has already expanded, I'm not so sure. I think a rib would pose very little threat, but a shoulder blade, with enough meat on top to cause the bullet to open, might be a tough obstacle.

I will be VERY interested to see the damage if you take a deer or hog with one. Keep us posted.
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:52   #109
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Thanks

Think I will go for it and see if I can get it up to 1650 or so.
I will also shoot some water jugs when I get the load dialed in.
Just trying to find some power pistol locally so I dont have to pay the $20 hazmat fee.

A different round and OT story, but I recently loaded a 95 gr TTSX in 270 win.
That is a 6.8 spc bullet and designed to open up at a lower speed.
At the time I was looking for a hard hitting load that would shoot inside of 4" out to 300 yards.

I ran it buy one of the 6.8 gurus at ARFcom and they did not know if the bullet would hold together at 3650. Like I said in the other thread it overperformed to a degree that it would not be good to use on a deer due to loss of meat.

It was a quartering towards me shot, and it blew out (more like disintigrated) one entire ham and ass end of a 100# hog and left his guts intact but hanging out his ass end. Massive hydraulic shock.

As far as the 125 XPB at 1650 (if I can get it) my gut tells me it should pass through most any normal size hog up to about 150#, but that's just a guess. The small ones are not that tough, although they can take a lot of punishment.
I do think it will hold together, but as far as the frontal area that is tricky due to the cutting edges which should reduce friction a bit just guessing.

Also at 1650 at 45 yards I would still have 1400 FPS so close to your tests.

Then again with hogs I will be unloading on them with multiple shots.

Unfortunately right now they have disappeared due to the extreme hot and dry weather where I hunt.

Last edited by tammons; 06-20-2011 at 10:54..
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Old 06-22-2011, 23:53   #110
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Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
I finally got a chance to get out and test the 155gr Silvertips.
Any intention of testing 155gr Gold Dots? IIRC they have a different HP cavity than the 165gr Gold Dots and work better than the 165s at high velocity.

In my experience with DT ammo (when they still loaded 10mm 155gr GD) they were good for .88" expansion maximum. Never had a chrono to check velocity. Always seemed like they penetrated various media types better than I'ld have expected, though not what I'ld have called "overpenetration".
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Old 06-23-2011, 07:56   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
Any intention of testing 155gr Gold Dots? IIRC they have a different HP cavity than the 165gr Gold Dots and work better than the 165s at high velocity.

In my experience with DT ammo (when they still loaded 10mm 155gr GD) they were good for .88" expansion maximum. Never had a chrono to check velocity. Always seemed like they penetrated various media types better than I'ld have expected, though not what I'ld have called "overpenetration".
One of the first bullet expansion water jug tests I EVER did (several years back) was with the DT 155gr GD from my G20L (6" barrel) and out of my Kimber ST2 (5" barrel). I posted pics here in the 10-Ring or here recently, too. The 155gr GD expanded HUGELY to over an inch from the 5" gun and slightly smaller from the 6" (due to slight over expansion). I was impressed with the expansion of both, however.

Search around and you'll find the pics ...
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Old 06-23-2011, 08:01   #112
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Hey Nick

Do you recall the load, or velocity on that 155 GD load?
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Old 06-23-2011, 08:06   #113
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Quote:
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Hey Nick

Do you recall the load, or velocity on that 155 GD load?
Hey guys ... I figured for YOU ALL, I'd dig out the photos again. lol

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The GD on the left is from the Kimber 5". The one on the right is from the G20 Longslide 6" Barsto. (Obviously, there is a .45 ACP Black Talon on the far left)

I didn't have a chrono back then but the advertised numbers are the same as what DT sells now, I believe 1450-1475 from a 155gr GD. Of course, they may not actually be GOING that fast. I'm not sure, honestly. Still, these pics give you a relative idea...
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Old 06-23-2011, 08:25   #114
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That Black Talon looks nice, the Gold Dot's look like they're right on the edge of going to fast, still looking good though.

I just took a quick look at the Lyman 49th, Hornady 4th and Hornady 7th, listing 9.8, 9.9 and 11.5 grains of 800-x respectively for 155 grain bullets, drives me nuts when one is obviously way off like the Hornady 7th.

Velocity is listed as 1315, 1300 and 1350 respectively from 5" barrels.

Anyways, you're results have given me food for thought 21, you might be onto something with the 155 gr. Silvertip, I'm going to have to review your write ups on the XTP's, although you make a sound case for the Silvertip, the 155 Gold Dot would be interesting too if you can find them. Hmmm, does Remington make a 155 Golden Saber?

Maybe the 155 at the right velocity would be THE light bullet in the 10mm
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Old 06-23-2011, 08:43   #115
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I've been thinking a lot about what the results would be for a wax test that compared the 200gr WFNGC to the 200gr XTP. Since the XTP tests are done, maybe we need to test the WFNGC load.

21Carrier, you want me to send ya a couple WFNGC's or do you already have some?
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Old 06-23-2011, 19:55   #116
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One of the first bullet expansion water jug tests I EVER did (several years back) was with the DT 155gr GD from my G20L (6" barrel) and out of my Kimber ST2 (5" barrel). I posted pics here in the 10-Ring or here recently, too. The 155gr GD expanded HUGELY to over an inch from the 5" gun and slightly smaller from the 6" (due to slight over expansion). I was impressed with the expansion of both, however.

Search around and you'll find the pics ...
My main curiosity lies in how they do in the wax tube compared to the others tested so far. BTW, thanks for posting the pics again.
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Old 06-23-2011, 20:33   #117
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My main curiosity lies in how they do in the wax tube compared to the others tested so far. BTW, thanks for posting the pics again.
I hear ya about the wax test and no problem on the pics.
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Old 06-23-2011, 22:09   #118
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I've been thinking a lot about what the results would be for a wax test that compared the 200gr WFNGC to the 200gr XTP. Since the XTP tests are done, maybe we need to test the WFNGC load.

21Carrier, you want me to send ya a couple WFNGC's or do you already have some?
Yeah, man, that would be great! PM me if you really don't mind doing that. I have been planning on testing the 200gr WFNGC bullets soon, but I haven't bought any. The same goes for Golden Sabers, 155gr Gold Dots, and any other bullets I've not tested. I'll eventually get around to buying all of them, but I just can't find a lot of them in stock. Anyone that wants a bullet tested, and has a few to spare, you can send them to me if you want to see them tested.

If it's a weight that I've already tested (125gr, 135gr, 155gr, 165gr, 175gr, 180gr, and 200gr) then just a few would do, maybe like 5. If it's some weight I haven't tested yet, I'd need a few more to work up to a safe hot load.

I should be ordering some 200gr WFNGC bullets in a couple of weeks, along with some Golden Sabers, and maybe a few others, but who knows about availability by then, so if anyone has a few to spare, PM me and you can send me a few for testing.

Hopefully, I'll be able to get some 200gr WFNGCs soon so I can also do the "bear tube" thing. I think that would be fun and interesting, regardless of how scientifically accurate it may be.

P.S. - I just looked back over all the weights of bullets I've fired through my G29. How FREAKING AWESOME is it that we have so many different bullet weights to choose from with 10mm?! I've used SEVEN different weights, and there's at LEAST two others that I haven't used (140gr Barnes, 220gr WFNGC).
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Old 06-23-2011, 22:56   #119
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I just took a quick look at the Lyman 49th, Hornady 4th and Hornady 7th, listing 9.8, 9.9 and 11.5 grains of 800-x respectively for 155 grain bullets, drives me nuts when one is obviously way off like the Hornady 7th.

Velocity is listed as 1315, 1300 and 1350 respectively from 5" barrels.

Anyways, you're results have given me food for thought 21, you might be onto something with the 155 gr. Silvertip, I'm going to have to review your write ups on the XTP's, although you make a sound case for the Silvertip, the 155 Gold Dot would be interesting too if you can find them. Hmmm, does Remington make a 155 Golden Saber?

Maybe the 155 at the right velocity would be THE light bullet in the 10mm
Jitterbug, I've been SERIOUSLY wondering about that 11.5gr load (800-X/155gr XTP) in Hornady's newest manual. They list 1350fps, but 1450fps from 12.9gr of Blue Dot. All I can tell you is that my hand tells me that 800-X load is a good bit hotter than the BD load. Plus, in my 155gr Silvertip tests, I went .3gr over with both those loads, and it was OBVIOUS the 800-X load was moving faster. I can't wait to get my chronograph and run all these loads!!!! I am going to have too much data to deal with the day I get my chrono. I bet I'll test 30 loads that day. I'll go back through my log book and make 10 of every load (if I have the bullets) for testing.

I really am starting to think the 155gr bullet is the sweet spot for 10mm SD use. You get massive, supersonic velocity, with enough mass to penetrate well. That Silvertip should transfer energy better than anything I've tested. Its ability to stop quickly is pretty amazing.

I just wish I had like two weeks with nothing to do, and a box of every .400" bullet made. Ok, make it a month. I would flood this site. I might not sleep for like three days. This hobby has gotten out of hand. I LOVE IT!!!

P.S. - The videos of the 125gr Barnes TAC-XP and 135gr Nosler JHP wax tube and water jug videos are up now. These are better videos than the previous ones, and give you a better idea of the process if anyone is interested. The following link will take you to my YouTube page, where you can find all of the videos:

http://www.youtube.com/user/alphazuluz?feature=mhee


EDIT = The 155gr Silvertip tests video should be up on YouTube in about 30 min, too.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 06-24-2011 at 05:39..
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Old 06-24-2011, 05:39   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
Yeah, man, that would be great! PM me if you really don't mind doing that. I have been planning on testing the 200gr WFNGC bullets soon, but I haven't bought any. The same goes for Golden Sabers, 155gr Gold Dots, and any other bullets I've not tested....
...P.S. - I just looked back over all the weights of bullets I've fired through my G29. How FREAKING AWESOME is it that we have so many different bullet weights to choose from with 10mm?! I've used SEVEN different weights, and there's at LEAST two others that I haven't used (140gr Barnes, 220gr WFNGC).
Sure, I'll send you a PM to get your info.
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