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Old 06-24-2011, 05:43   #121
nickE10mm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
I really am starting to think the 155gr bullet is the sweet spot for 10mm SD use. You get massive, supersonic velocity, with enough mass to penetrate well. ...
Yep, that's what I've been saying all along. The 155gr is where its at for 10mm SD. In fact, I believe the sectional density for the 155gr pill is comparable to the venerable 125gr .357 mag bullet that is responsible for the devastating 99% one-shot-stops for so many years... the "undisputed king of stopping power" load.... and not only that.... but its velocity can equal or exceed it in the 10mm. So, while we don't have much street data on the 10mm, we can infer that a hot 10mm in 155gr flavor will equal or exceed the 125gr .357 mag loading that has reigned the streets for nearly 20 years..... Put THAT in your pipe and smoke on it.
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Old 06-24-2011, 08:06   #122
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You might be right Nick, when I went to the 10mm back in the early 90's, one of the goals was to to duplicate the 125 grain load coming from a 4" .357, as you say it was considered king of the fight stoppers. I thought the 135 gr. Nosler was going to be the the equivalent load, in either hot .40 S&W or 10mm...and it just might be and we don't have the "street data" to back it up, other then what Mas found out with the .40.

Later on I decided a 180 grain quality bullet going just above 40 S&W velocity was it, since the 40 has given LE such good results and I didn't see the point of "handling" the extra recoil from the hotter loads, especially in respect to getting of a second shot. Notwithstanding my original theory that one well placed shot was all one would need with either .357 or 10mm.

Then on the other end of the spectrum the 180 and 200 grain 10mm loadings, just made more sense as a "woods" load verses the 158 grain, soft point .357 Magnum loadings we had at the time. My goal with the 10mm was versatility, from woods and field to the street or range with a mag change.

Back then I reloaded mostly only for "range ammo" and always purchased factory for the serious loads.

21, nice job with the videos, maybe I missed the "bullet results" with the 155 XTP?

The 125 Barnes seemed to do pretty well especially in the penetration department verses the Nosler, although the width of the Nosler wound path was just about double everything else, if I'm comprehending correctly?

I've pretty much ignored the 155 grain bullets in 10mm, maybe it's time to rethink?
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Old 06-24-2011, 12:14   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
I really am starting to think the 155gr bullet is the sweet spot for 10mm SD use. You get massive, supersonic velocity, with enough mass to penetrate well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickE10mm View Post
Yep, that's what I've been saying all along. The 155gr is where its at for 10mm SD. In fact, I believe the sectional density for the 155gr pill is comparable to the venerable 125gr .357 mag bullet that is responsible for the devastating 99% one-shot-stops for so many years... the "undisputed king of stopping power" load.... and not only that.... but its velocity can equal or exceed it in the 10mm. So, while we don't have much street data on the 10mm, we can infer that a hot 10mm in 155gr flavor will equal or exceed the 125gr .357 mag loading that has reigned the streets for nearly 20 years..... Put THAT in your pipe and smoke on it.
I've felt exactly the same for the last +5 years. The DT 10mm 155gr GD load was what I always carried, till, they stopped offering them. I wish I'ld have been able to chronograph them, as while they were offered, I just kept my fingers crossed that the 1400fps claim wasn't a lie. Now I suspect it was. Maybe back then it wasn't, don't know. Right now I just have DT 10mm 135gr Noslers loaded in my G29. Hopefully sometime soon that will change to Swamp Fox 10mm 155gr GD rated @ an honest 1450fps from a 4.6" G20.

And like nickE10mm said, yeah, for all practical purposes, the sectional density of the .357 125gr pills (sd = .140) and the 10mm 155gr pills (sd = .138) are equal. But in these 155gr bullets we use, we start out with a heavier bullet in a larger caliber that ends in more expansion at even greater speed. And from a 6" tube using 10mm with 155gr bullets, things are beyond looking really scary for any intended live target outside of bear defense in North America, assuming the bullet design can still reach the vitals before fragmentation gets too far out of hand.

If something is after me and needs to be stopped, I have no interest in heavy for caliber JHP bullets that do little more than poke a nice "clean" hole that more/less seals back up on itself as if you were using FMJ. What I do want is as much drama as possible to the adversary with each shot I land on target. That means a relatively large temporary wound cavity, tissue/organ damage outside the permanent crush cavity, and as high a ballistic pressure wave as possible, in a bullet that will still reliably reach the vitals.

And like you guys, I agree, that the various 155gr 10mm bullets are what get us there. We all seem to like a different bullet (Silver Tip, Gold Dot, XTP...), but they all seem to end up at 155gr!

Legend has it, the pic in the link below is the facial expression to be expected a millisecond after being struck by a 155gr 10mm load as explained above. Supposedly, complete collapse occures another quarter second later...

10mm Reloading Forum

And of course, no disrespect meant to John McLame. It's only the expression on his face meant for the example.


Good Shooting,
Craig
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Last edited by glock20c10mm; 06-24-2011 at 12:18..
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Old 06-24-2011, 14:42   #124
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Here's the 155gr Hornady XTP data, I just realized it was not on this thread, but rather on my first thread about the bullet test tube. I also just realized I didn't have a video of it, and I likely won't make one (since I only have photos and I hate making slideshows). I did that test the morning all those massive tornadoes hit my area (AL), and I did the test in a hurry in between storms:

Hornady 155gr XTP Wax Tube Test

Ok, so the test is done and the results are . . . . . . GREAT!!! Although, I think there may be too much petroleum jelly (even though I used 40% instead of 50% as the recipe said). Further testing with a Factory Silvertip has shown that the wax mixture is just right. Penetration of the Silvertip was 6", which is in line with The Bullet Test Tube. I fired a single Hornady 155gr XTP over 12.9gr Blue Dot, CCI 300 primer, COAL 1.260", out of a stock G29. It was a good center hit, and it penetrated the full 12" of the tube!!! it was found right under the tube, and obviously had bled about 99% of its velocity as it didn't even penetrate the cardboard that was under the tube.

Update: this load chronographed a 10-shot average of 1337fps on 8/4/11.

Bullet specs: Max expansion was .745", min .659" for an average diameter of around .705" (off the top of my head, so not exact). Retained mass was 147.1gr, which is about 4 grains better than my results in the water jugs. There were NO signs of jacket separation, the bullet appeared to have functioned flawlessly. One tiny piece of lead was found on the ground under the tube, another in the wax. The wound channel measured about 1.25" at max diameter, see pics.

THE MOST INTERESTING THING: Look at the entry hole. See how the hole is NOT round, it's HEXAGONAL, and measures about .705"!!! That means the bullet had already FULLY expanded in the first 1/2" of penetration!!! That's awesome. Full, instant expansion, and 12+" of penetration. Does it get much better than that?! I believe the XTPs are some wicked bullets, they just act like underachievers. Pics will follow, but I'm in a hurry so forgive me if they have to wait.

P.S. I risked my life to bring y'all this test today (not really), but honestly, we had a tornado at 6:00 this morning and have more on the way, so I slipped out for a test in between. Now that's dedication!!!

Here are some pics:

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Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-05-2011 at 07:06..
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Old 06-24-2011, 15:07   #125
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All this 155gr bullet talk really has me wanting to test a 155gr Gold Dot. I really like the expansion of Gold Dots, and they seem to have lots of very sharp edges. I can just imagine an expanded Gold Dot causing massive damage. My only problem with them is that they tend to over expand at real 10mm velocities (that may not always be a bad thing, the Black Talon over expanded, and was MEAN). That, and I can't get them to work in the wax test tube. Maybe the 155gr bullet will work in one. By the way, that reminds me that I need to retest the 165gr and 180gr bullets with a revised wax mixture.

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Old 06-24-2011, 15:29   #126
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Hey Carrier, get the wax out of your ears...you so need a CHRONY! Hey but the latest test and pics are a great testament to the XTP's performance from bullets that don't carry designer pricing! Thanks again for sharing!
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Old 06-24-2011, 17:35   #127
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Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
Hey Carrier, get the wax out of your ears...you so need a CHRONY! Hey but the latest test and pics are a great testament to the XTP's performance from bullets that don't carry designer pricing! Thanks again for sharing!
I know, I know, I'll have one soon! I can't wait!
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Old 07-02-2011, 00:25   #128
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I've got some great tests coming up!!! In the next week or two should come the following: 135gr Sierra JHP (both in factory CorBon loading, and hot reloaded), 150gr Nosler JHP, 165gr Golden Saber, 200gr WFNGC, 156gr Cast Lyman Devastator, 180gr Rainier Plated HP, 220gr Double Tap WFNGC (factory DT), and maybe some others. I'm gonna try to get some 180gr Golden Sabers, and others. Should have the 135gr Sierras up on Sunday.
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Old 07-02-2011, 05:59   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
I've got some great tests coming up!!! In the next week or two should come the following: 135gr Sierra JHP (both in factory CorBon loading, and hot reloaded), 150gr Nosler JHP, 165gr Golden Saber, 200gr WFNGC, 156gr Cast Lyman Devastator, 180gr Rainier Plated HP, 220gr Double Tap WFNGC (factory DT), and maybe some others. I'm gonna try to get some 180gr Golden Sabers, and others. Should have the 135gr Sierras up on Sunday.
BTW, its a 220gr Buffalo Bore factory HC, and rated at 1200fps (~703 ft/lbs).
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Old 07-02-2011, 07:26   #130
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Sounds great 21, I'm really looking forward to the 200 and 220 H.C.

The 135 gr. Sierra and Nosler 150 gr. has piqued my interest too.

Sierra usually makes very nice bullets it will be interesting to see how it performs in relation to the Nosler.
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Old 07-02-2011, 07:30   #131
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I'm anxious for most all of those bullet tests.... but the Devastators and WFNGC's are REALLY getting me wondering ... :D
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Old 07-02-2011, 07:55   #132
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21C your test have been rekindling my 10mm interests I had gotten into revolvers for a while but have now been playing with my 3 10mm handguns and just put my 18" barrel onto my T/C Contender need to find the time to get out to get it resighted in...

Thanks for these tests they are great info...

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Old 07-03-2011, 05:25   #133
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BTW, its a 220gr Buffalo Bore factory HC, and rated at 1200fps (~703 ft/lbs).
Sorry, you're right Nick, it's a Buffalo Bore 220gr HC, not Double Tap. By the way, lots of thanks to NickE10mm and The Shadow for sending me bullets. Both of them sent me several different bullets to test, so again, thanks guys.

Cam, I'm glad to get you interested in 10mm again. We always need more 10mm shooters.

I'll be testing the 135gr Sierra JHPs today (factory CorBon, and 12.7gr 800-X). I'll have the results up as soon as possible. Likely around 8 pm or so. On deck is Shadow's 156gr Devastator HP and .45ACP 195gr Devastator HP. I figure it's about time I test a .45ACP bullet for comparison. I'll do more of them after I'm done with 10mm, but I'd like to get an idea of the difference in wounding capabilities between the two. After those, I'll get to Nick's bullets.
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Old 07-04-2011, 03:25   #134
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Ok, so I tested the 135gr Sierra JHP today, and it looks VERY promising. It seems that it easily outperformed the 135gr Nosler, offering BOTH massive damage and sufficient penetration. Here are the results:

Sierra 135gr JHP Wax Tests

I tested this bullet in both a factory 135gr CorBon 10mm load (claimed 1400fps), and reloaded with 12.7gr 800-X, CCI 300, COAL 1.260". I only used 12.7gr of 800-X instead of the 13.0gr I used with the Nosler because the Sierra is a little bit longer (I'm guessing because of the larger cavity). Both loads performed well. In fact, it seems this may be the best factory SD load out there. As a hand load, the bullet performed even better. Thanks to GTRhino24 for the bullets.

Factory CorBon 10mm 135gr JHP (Sierra JHP at 1400fps)

As I said above, this is quite possibly one of the best factory SD loads out there, if not the best (not including Swamp Fox, BB, DT). It does a great job of combining energy, wounding, and penetration. Here are the stats:

Update: this load chronographed a 3-shot average of 1249fps on 8/4/11.

Penetration: 11.5"
Max expansion: .759"
Min expansion: .649"
Mass retention: 74.9gr
Wound channel max diameter: 2.5" (I think it may have been a little bit smaller, but the shot was a tiny bit off center, and caused one side of the tube to blow out. I'm guessing about 2.25" is more realistic.)

Pictures:

10mm Reloading Forum

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135gr Sierra JHP/12.7gr 800-X

This load was nearly as devastating as the 135gr Nosler, but offered a good bit more penetration. Another thing that I notice about this bullet is the fact that it creates secondary wound channels. Like the Black Talon, as the bullet expands, little pieces of lead fragment and take off at 45 degree angles causing secondary wounding. This was more pronounced with the hand load, but also occurred with the factory load. With the hand load, there were six fragments (from the six petals), and each penetrated about 2-3 inches and was stopped by the cardboard tube.

The wound channel was as wide as the Nosler's but not quite as voluminous. However, the trade-off is more penetration and the secondary wounding. Again, as with the Nosler, there was enough energy transfer to blow the tube open in several spots. There were about six large splits in the cardboard where it had torn. Luckily, it held just enough. On to the numbers:

Penetration: 10.5"
Max expansion: .649"
Min expansion: .538"
Mass retention: 67.6gr
Wound channel max diameter: 4"

Pictures:

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Here's a close-up of the secondary wound channels created by the fragmentation.
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Overall, I was very impressed with the 135gr Sierra JHP. The wounding was massive and nasty, and penetration should easily meet the FBI standard 12" in gelatin. I forgot to test them in water, so I'll do that next time.

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Old 07-04-2011, 12:34   #135
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Awesome, thanks again for the results.... 135gr Sierra.... hmmmm
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Old 07-04-2011, 15:55   #136
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Cam, I'm glad to get you interested in 10mm again. We always need more 10mm shooters.
Oh I didn't stop shooting 10mm it is that I started shooting/carrying 45 Colt & 454 Casull a lot more than 10mm due to carrying revolvers in the remote areas of British Columbia & Alberta for defense against wild animals.

I load top velocity 240gr XTP's - 345gr Beartooth WLNGC's in my s/s 5.5" Ruger Bisley Vaquero's in 45 Colt and 240gr XTP mags - 405gr Jae-Bok Young WLNGC's in my shortened to 4.25" Ruger Super Redhawk.

My 405gr loads = 1330fps from the 4.25" SRH...

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Old 07-04-2011, 16:10   #137
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Very nice on the 135gr test.

Over time I've seen bits and pieces of information that would suggest these 135gr bullets are more potent than many would have us believe. Obviously in 40S&W they are street proven, but at top notch 10mm velocities many seem to shy away from them (same as 9mm 115gr +P/+P+ even though many of them don't frag as bad as most would have us believe) because of relatively high percentages of fragmentation.

Yet, even with the frag at high velocity, they at least seem to be capable of a wound channel (and a nasty one at that) to and into the vitals for any shot that isn't angling to badly into the body. Much the same as .357 caliber 125gr short jacket hollow points at ~1400fps. Not to mention the fact that it's pretty clear these 135gr pills are going to have a good chance of seriously damaging stuff outside of the permanent crush cavity. IMO, these 135gr pills will also have a much better chance, and in a quicker amount of time, of letting BGs know they've been hit in direct comparison to heavy for caliber bullet weight that do there job without much "fuss".

It's like an older ex-cop (38 years experience) told me (and I'm paraphrasing here); Heavy for caliber bullets work great for killing people. The problem is they don't incapacitate worth a darn. With the heavy for caliber bullets you still have to chase the guy down till you've found him a couple hundred yards away laying dead where he hid in a culvert or back alley, along with the times you don't have to chase them down but they're still shooting back or threatening with a knife or whatever, or you later come across them at one of the local hospitals that they made it to on their own. He said when he first joined the force and they used 125gr 357 Magnum, the above had happened, for it wasn't common or the norm. He said with the 125gr 357 Magnum you could pretty much count...1 watermelon-2watermelon-3watermelon...and that was the end of it. End of fight. He also made a point of saying that the 357 Mag didn't require "perfect" shot placement. He said you could miss the vitals, still with a decent COM hit, and still it wasn't unusual for it to be all over by the count of "3".

Anyway, the 155s give me a tad more piece of mind, but even at "hyper" velocity it does not appear those 135s are really anything to shy away from.


Again 21Carrier, thanks for sharing all this with us!
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Old 07-04-2011, 20:40   #138
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Very interesting. I have only worked with Sierras in limited quantites and zero in the 135 grain weight, so I had no idea what type of terminal ballistics they would yield. Now we know.

Thanks again for the quality write up.
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Old 07-04-2011, 20:43   #139
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Oh yea 135's do that nasty stuff...Thanks for the data!
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Old 07-04-2011, 20:52   #140
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Shadow, your Devastators are up next (both .45ACP and 10mm). I haven't gotten Nick's bullets yet (though they should be here tomorrow), and I've already gotten yours loaded. I'll try to do them sometime this week, then two of Nick's this weekend.

I did run one of your 10mm Devastators through a few water jugs yesterday. I have a feeling it will be similar to this last test, but without such a massive wound chamber (since I'm leery of running them really fast in my Glock barrel). The one shot into the water basically blew apart into little chunks with a central core staying together. I'm guessing we will see a decent chamber with secondary wounding, and the central core doing some decent penetration. We will see. I'm very interested in them.
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