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Old 07-17-2011, 13:57   #176
glock20c10mm
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Thanks for the test of the 200gr WFNGC.

Great for comparison to all you tested so far and to come.

Not something that will ever be loaded in my 10mm unless I move to Grizzly territory. Clearly though they have a purpose!


Thanks again,
Craig
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Old 07-17-2011, 17:22   #177
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Yesterday, when I tested the 200gn WFNGC bullet, I also tested the 180gn Ranier Plated HP that Nick sent me. Since the WFNGC bullet did not fully penetrate the entire 37" of wax tube, I had about 11-12" worth of untouched wax left over (I actually had more like 14" worth of USEABLE wax left since the WFNGC bullet veered slightly toward the end). I used it to test the Ranier.

180gn Rainier Plated HP Wax Tube Test

Thanks again to NickE10mm for sending me this bullet. This bullet actually seemed to do pretty well. The wound chamber was quite large, and penetration was good. The bullet over-expanded, but the plated on "jacket" did not fully separate. You can think of this as a Gold Dot with a thin jacket. It is actually made to look very similar, and the "jacket's" adhesion to the lead is exceptional, though not up to Gold Dot standards. It is obvious that the plating is MUCH thinner than a jacket. Here are the metrics:

NOTE: because this wax tube had already been used, and I had cut open the surrounding cardboard tube (and accidentally scored the wax), this test MAY be slightly compromised. When I shot it, the wax split along the line where my knife had accidentally scored it. Also, without the support of the cardboard, the wax blew open slightly. This may have caused the wound tract to be slightly larger than usual. I don't think it affected things that much, but maybe it did.

Load used: new Starline brass, CCI 300, 9.7gn 800-X, COAL 1.260"

Update: this load chronographed a 4-shot average of 1226fps on 8/4/11.

Max expansion: .504"
Min expansion: .458"
Retained mass: 138.4gn
Penetration: 11.5"
Max wound tract dia.: 2"

Overall, it did pretty well for a plated cheap-o bullet. I think it would actually be a decent performer at .40S&W or lower 10mm speeds. If it hadn't over-expanded, and the lead petals broken off, it would likely have had great expansion.

Pictures:

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Sorry for the kitty paw in this picture, I was babysitting my girlfriend's kitten. He was sitting in my lap while taking the picture, and he kept trying to attack the bullet.
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165gn Golden Saber Water Jug Test

Again, thanks to NickE10mm for this bullet. I tested two 165gn Golden Sabers in some water jugs, both with similar results. The core ends up over-expanding and separating from the jacket, while the jacket looks like it might be the most awful thing on Earth to have in your body. I have high hopes for these bullets, so I'm hoping they will do better in the wax. I think they will since water offers more hydraulic action than wax/gelatin/tissue, and tends to tear bullets apart.

Load used: Starline nickel, CCI 300s, 11.2gr 800-X, COAL 1.260"

Update: this load chronographed a single shot velocity of 1397fps on 8/4/11 (I only had one left).

Here are the measurements and pictures:

Max JACKET expansion: 1.349" (Yes, nearly 1.5"!!!)
Min JACKET expansion: .741"
Max CORE expansion: .590" (all the petals were gone)
Min CORE expansion: .506"
Retained JACKET mass: 39.3gn
Retained CORE mass: 89.9gn
Combined retained mass: 129.4gn

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I will be testing this 165gn Golden Saber and a 150gn Nosler JHP in the wax tube next. Hopefully this week, or next weekend at the latest.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-05-2011 at 07:15..
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Old 07-17-2011, 20:26   #178
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Great work, Carrier. Although the wound channel is not very impressive, penetration definitely is, and that recovered bullet is about perfect except for the rifling engrained on it. The true benefit of these bullets is their ability to smash through thick bones and continue on their path through tissue with relatively little deformation. Even if they lose stability inside tissue and tumble, they still are going to stay together. I don't know if that would be true 100% of the time with an FMJ that could (and probably would be) filled with a softer lead alloy.

On the 200gr WFNGC bullets. They'll do the job they were intendked for.

Thanks for doing the hard work, Carrier.
Agreed. Great work Carrier!

I carry this bullet in the Idaho wilderness because of the reasons you outline above. We have creatures that would probably do fine with a heavy XTP (wolves, cougar, and smaller black bear), but I have been startled by moose and baby outside my tent on more than one occasion. In some areas near Yellowstone and near the Canadian border, the occasional brown bear can be found. Now a heavy revolver would be more suitable, obviously, than a Glock 20, but i do not have one. The WFNGC will give me the best chance of penetration to vitals or cns on the big meanies.
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Old 07-17-2011, 22:51   #179
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Nice report! I'm especially anxious to see the next wax tube tests using the 165gn Golden Saber and 150gn Nosler JHP! BTW, how hot will they be loaded? I'm hoping to see better results (width of the wound track) than last seen with the 180gr Rainier Plated HP.
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:26   #180
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Nice report! I'm especially anxious to see the next wax tube tests using the 165gn Golden Saber and 150gn Nosler JHP! BTW, how hot will they be loaded? I'm hoping to see better results (width of the wound track) than last seen with the 180gr Rainier Plated HP.
As with the rest of my tests, they will be loaded as fast as I am comfortable shooting out of my gun. I am doing all of this primarily to find out which bullets are tough enough to handle 10mm velocities. Obviously, we also learn more in the process, namely bullet wounding performance, expansion, and penetration. After I'm done with every bullet that I want to test, I will likely go back and retest some at lower velocities. However, for now, I want to see which bullets can REALLY handle 10mm velocity. The 165gr GSHPs will be loaded with either 11.0gn or 11.2gn 800-X, and the 150gn Noslers will likely be 13.3gn Blue Dot. I might use 800-X with the 150s, but I'm not sure yet. I'm expecting about 1350-1375fps for the GSHP, and 1450fps for the Nosler.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 07-18-2011 at 02:27..
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Old 07-18-2011, 07:39   #181
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Yesterday, while pushing my way through the willows on a game trail, running alongside my favorite trout stream, 10,000 feet high in the central Rockies.

I was thinking to myself, I do hope 21's 200 gr. WNFPGC test goes well...especially since I half expected to come face to face with Mama Moose or something else large, hairy and equally dangerous at any moment.

We did see one of largest Bison I've seen in some time, while not in the willows with us, he wasn't all that far away either, close enough to enter my mind from time to time.

Those large critters like the cool of the willows in the blistering 75 degree dry heat...alongside the ice cold, crystal clear trout streams...

Good job 21, I do appreciate your efforts in the sweltering Bama heat as well as the visual and verbal abuse you suffer at the hands of the Walmart employee's, in your quest of informing us of the perfect bullet.

It performed just about exactly as I expected it would.

Last edited by Jitterbug; 07-18-2011 at 07:48..
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Old 07-18-2011, 18:29   #182
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Cats make an excellent expansion medium. Just remember to use Accurate #9 powder or number 9 shot. Don't mean to offend any cat lovers out there. Actually I like them. They taste like chicken. So many cats, so few recipies.

Last edited by hubcap500; 07-18-2011 at 18:30..
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Old 07-18-2011, 18:51   #183
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Cat's in the kettle at Hubcap's room,
It'll be done very soon!
It's not chicken or pork,
Garfield's on my fork!
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Old 07-18-2011, 19:14   #184
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Cats make an excellent expansion medium. Just remember to use Accurate #9 powder or number 9 shot. Don't mean to offend any cat lovers out there. Actually I like them. They taste like chicken. So many cats, so few recipies.
Hahahaha! I've always been the same way, until recently. I'm a big dog person, and I've always hated cats. But my girlfriend loves them, so I have to put up with them sometimes. You know, this all makes me wonder if I could get some euthanized dog carcasses from the pound for testing. I did 100 hours of community service (BS racing ticket) a few years ago, and worked at an animal shelter in Tuscaloosa, AL. We had a huge freezer just full of dogs and cats. I wonder if I could get a hold of some fresh ones for testing. That would be pretty interesting, though smelly. Honestly, I might have a hard time shooting even a dead dog.

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Old 07-19-2011, 12:43   #185
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21, THANKS MAN!! I enjoyed the results of all three tests, although, admittedly, I haven't had a chance to really PORE through the data. Just got back in town from being gone a while. I will check most of it out tonight and tomorrow. Looking forward to the rest of the tests. Will give my input then.

Thanks again, bud! Great work!
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:40   #186
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I will be testing the 165gn Golden Saber and 150gn Nosler JHP either tomorrow (Tuesday) or Wednesday. I'm really excited about both of these. I have high hopes for the Golden Saber, and I'm very interested to see if the 150gn Nosler achieves a nice balance of mayhem and penetration. I'm hoping it will prove to be like a 135gn Nosler but with more retained mass and penetration.
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Old 07-26-2011, 19:10   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
I will be testing the 165gn Golden Saber and 150gn Nosler JHP either tomorrow (Tuesday) or Wednesday. I'm really excited about both of these. I have high hopes for the Golden Saber, and I'm very interested to see if the 150gn Nosler achieves a nice balance of mayhem and penetration. I'm hoping it will prove to be like a 135gn Nosler but with more retained mass and penetration.
My sentiments exactly
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Old 07-26-2011, 20:22   #188
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Old 07-27-2011, 12:32   #189
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Okay, it's Wednesday, where's the.............oh yeah, Wednesday has only just begun. My Bad.

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Old 07-28-2011, 03:04   #190
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Okay, it's Wednesday, where's the.............oh yeah, Wednesday has only just begun. My Bad.

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Sorry, I spent almost the entire day in traffic court. I forgot to pay my speeding ticket (remember the story about me getting pulled over and not having my CCW permit? ). Luckily, I had set a reminder on my phone, but I set it for the wrong date. It went off at 4:00pm on the 26th. I meant to set it for the 19th, to give me a week's notice. Instead, it gave me a day, and the office was closed by 4:30, so I had to go to court. It was hell.

Anyway, the tubes are ready, so I'll test the 165gn Golden Saber and 150gn Nosler JHP tomorrow afternoon. I should have the results up by 7-8pm.
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Old 07-28-2011, 18:58   #191
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Sorry, I spent almost the entire day in traffic court. I forgot to pay my speeding ticket (remember the story about me getting pulled over and not having my CCW permit? ). Luckily, I had set a reminder on my phone, but I set it for the wrong date. It went off at 4:00pm on the 26th. I meant to set it for the 19th, to give me a week's notice. Instead, it gave me a day, and the office was closed by 4:30, so I had to go to court. It was hell.
Such is life. But somehow it usually still goes on.

Quote:
Anyway, the tubes are ready, so I'll test the 165gn Golden Saber and 150gn Nosler JHP tomorrow afternoon. I should have the results up by 7-8pm.
AWESOME!!!


Can't wait!
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Old 07-29-2011, 16:13   #192
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Ok, I've got the results for the 150gn Nosler JHP and 165gn GSHP. I'll have them up by around 7:00.
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Old 07-29-2011, 18:30   #193
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165gn Golden Saber Wax Tube Test

The Golden Saber did ok, but does not seem to be built for 10mm. Furthermore, the damage done was less than I had expected. The bullet over-expanded, and separated from its jacket. Regardless of the jacket separation, the jacket penetrated just as far as the bullet, and the two ended up together. Here's the data:

Load used: new Starline nickel brass, 11.2gn 800-X, CCI 300, COAL 1.260"

Update: this load chronographed a single shot velocity of 1397fps on 8/4/11 (I only had one left).

-Max expansion (jacket): .960"
-Min expansion (jacket): .646"
-Max expansion (core): .516"
-Min expansion (core): .502"
-Retained mass (jacket): 39.7gn
-Retained mass (core): 89.7gn
-Total retained mass: 129.4gn
-Penetration: 10.5"
-Max wound dia.: 1.5"

Overall, it's a decent mid-weight bullet. The jacket would be horribly destructive to tissue, it seems. It tore up the wound channel pretty bad. I think I'd heard that Remington is now making a bonded version. That might work better, but I think over-expansion is the real problem. There was some secondary wounding from chunks of lead that broke off and cut secondary channels.

Pictures:

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...t=photo-17.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...t=photo-19.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...t=photo-18.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...t=photo-25.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...t=photo-24.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...t=photo-23.jpg

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-05-2011 at 07:17..
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Old 07-29-2011, 18:52   #194
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150gn Nosler JHP Wax Tube Test

I am seriously disappointed in these mid-weight Noslers. This bullet failed to open. In fact, it CLOSED. Now, I would normally blame this on the wax not being as liquid as flesh, but the same thing happened in water jugs. So, it appears the hollow point cavity design is less than optimal. I think is is because of the squared off internal cavity shape, and the overall lack of internal volume. Apparently, this cavity will not cause reliable expansion without serious speed. This bullet is identical to the 135gn one except slightly longer. Here's the data:

Load used: new Starline nickel brass, CCI 300, 11.7gn 800-X, COAL 1.260"

Update: this load chronographed a 10 shot average of 1412fps on 8/11/11.

-Max expansion: .476"
-Min expansion: .382"
-Retained mass: 148.2gn
-Penetration: 13.5"
-Max wound channel dia.: 1.25"

I'd really like to see how the heavier Noslers perform. If they have the same hollow point, I'd guess they are equally sketchy. I'm starting to think the Nosler JHPs are not really meant as SD/hunting bullets, but rather as cheap target/competition bullets. Maybe this is a premature assessment since two bullets failing is not an acceptable sample size. I think the 135gn bullets are only reliable because of how fast they are moving.

Pictures (bullet on left is from water jugs, bullet on right is from wax tube):

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...t=photo-27.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...t=photo-20.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...t=photo-21.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...t=photo-26.jpg

http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/...t=photo-22.jpg

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-13-2011 at 22:00..
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Old 07-29-2011, 18:57   #195
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165gn Golden Saber Wax Tube Test
Well, it wasn't terrible in terms of wound track damage. At the same time it has some to be desired. Definitely won't be a favorite of mine, but at the same time, if it was all I had available, I wouldn't be all to worried about it probably getting the job done.

What I really wish we knew is what velocity you launched it at.
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Old 07-29-2011, 19:03   #196
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150gn Nosler JHP Wax Tube Test
Dang!(not in a good way!) Didn't even expand in water jugs?!? WTH!?! Very sad. Again, would be nice to know what the actual velocity was.

This makes me wonder how the 200gr Noslers perform, especially since they would start out at a much slower velocity.

Not really sure what else I can say here. Not sure there is anything else to say. That sucks!

21carrier, AWESOME job as usual! Thanks!
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Old 07-29-2011, 19:22   #197
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I am seriously disappointed in these mid-weight Noslers. This bullet failed to open. In fact, it CLOSED.
Was the bullet tumbling? From the deformation it looks like it hit at an angle.
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Old 07-29-2011, 20:18   #198
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Once again Carrier more good testing! I was interested in the 165 Rem GS...

I have 1000 of the 165gr Remington Golden Sabers loaded in new Remington nickel brass over 11.0 grains Blue Dot a little over 10 years ago. These run 1240 fps from my testing with the S&W 1006. The early GS were not bonded, it was said that the newer GS are bonded.
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Old 07-30-2011, 00:51   #199
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Excellent test, Carrier!

Certainly not what I expected, but then again, that's why these things need to be tested. Thanks again for doing the hard work!
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Old 07-30-2011, 04:38   #200
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Dang!(not in a good way!) Didn't even expand in water jugs?!? WTH!?! Very sad. Again, would be nice to know what the actual velocity was.

This makes me wonder how the 200gr Noslers perform, especially since they would start out at a much slower velocity.

Not really sure what else I can say here. Not sure there is anything else to say. That sucks!

21carrier, AWESOME job as usual! Thanks!
I know, I was shocked that the 150gn Nosler JHP didn't expand in water. By the way, in the 150gn Nosler JHP pictures, the bullet on the right is from the wax tube. I forgot to note that, but I edited the post to include that. The bullet on the left is from the water jugs.

Also, I'll have a chronograph in a week or so, and the day I get it, I will be chronographing all the loads I've tested. So we will have the velocity data soon.

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Originally Posted by hypnagogue View Post
Was the bullet tumbling? From the deformation it looks like it hit at an angle.
No, they aren't tumbling, because I've had great accuracy from them, with no signs of tumbling. I can always tell if a bullet is tumbling from the way it "keyholes" or tears a large, ragged hole in paper. I've never seen that with the Noslers. I just think it's the hollow point design. The bullet has a truncated cone profile, which would cause inward pressure when impacting a fluid. Also, the small cavity likely does not have enough surface area to produce sufficient outward hydraulic pressure to open the bullet. That's my assessment of it, at least.

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Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
Once again Carrier more good testing! I was interested in the 165 Rem GS...

I have 1000 of the 165gr Remington Golden Sabers loaded in new Remington nickel brass over 11.0 grains Blue Dot a little over 10 years ago. These run 1240 fps from my testing with the S&W 1006. The early GS were not bonded, it was said that the newer GS are bonded.
They are still good bullets. I imagine they would be more effective at lower velocities. I still think they are one of the better .400" hollow points. Besides, I'll take over-expansion over non-expansion any day of the week. I think the GSHP is likely one of the more reliable expanders. The GSHP, Silvertip, and XTPs seem to open well in anything. Hell, the XTPs and Silvertips open in DIRT. And the Golden Sabers have cavities VERY similar to the Silvertips.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 07-30-2011 at 04:42..
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