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Old 07-14-2011, 22:18   #161
Taterhead
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickE10mm View Post
I think I'm more excited about this test than ANY before!! Oh yeaaaaa....
Me too - especially after seeing what they did to milk jugs.
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Old 07-15-2011, 15:57   #162
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It's about 100 here today. Saw a dog chasing a rabbit and they were both walking.
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Old 07-15-2011, 18:36   #163
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I went to Wal-Mart earlier to get some more wax and Vaseline. I have always thought people must wonder what the hell I'm doing while buying large quantities of wax and Vaseline. Well, today I found out. As I'm checking out, the old lady at the register said, "You got a drug test coming up?" I was like, "Huh?!" She said, "That's what people use this stuff for". She started explaining how one of the two ingredients can be used to fool drug tests. I'm not sure whether she was talking about the Vaseline or the wax because it was loud and I couldn't hear her.

Not wanting all the other people in line (who were at this point staring at me, and almost backing up) to think I was some meth-head on a court appointed drug testing schedule, I said, "Actually, I use it to test bullets." This didn't seem to make me any more appealing. Now EVERYONE, including the old lady cashier, who apparently cheats drug tests, were looking at me like I'm a meth-head serial killer psycho. Plus, the drug test beating 90 year old wanted details. So, now I'm standing at the Wal-Mart checkout counter explaining how wax and Vaseline can be used to test bullets, why anyone would want to do this, and why anyone cares.

Next time I think I'll just say I do a lot of canning jelly, and I get lonely. Perhaps those would be more common, more socially acceptable uses for wax and Vaseline.


EDIT: By the way, I'll be doing the WFNGC test tomorrow morning. This 3 foot plus wax tube has taken nearly two days to pour and harden. I'm about to pour the last 8 inches, and it will be ready by morning. I'll post the results as soon as I get home. I am starting to have fears that the bullet will exit the side. I guess I shouldn't worry, as all of the tests have proven bullets don't curve or deflect in the wax. I just better make the shot count. I have to go with my girlfriend and her new kitty to the vet at 2 tomorrow, so if I don't have the time to post it before then, it will be up by about 5-6pm at the latest. Wish me luck. I can't wait.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 07-15-2011 at 18:41..
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Old 07-15-2011, 19:26   #164
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That's awesome! Not sure I would care too much about what Walmart people thought of me though. That old lady probably has seen it all. I'd have just told her my wife was kinky. If you had bought an industrial sized bottle of allergy medicine, some razor blades, and ziplock bags, she probably wouldn't have uttered a peep. That's standard equipment here in Bama.
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Old 07-15-2011, 22:32   #165
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I figured I would hit you guys with a little bit of a teaser. Here are some pics of the super-long WFNGC test tube. It measures 37" x 4.5" in diameter. It's over 2.5 times longer than my usual tube, and 3 times longer than my first few that were about 12" long. Also, as you can see in the first picture, I figured a way to cool the tube quickly outside of a fridge. I realized I had an old window A/C unit, so I hooked it up, and put the tube right in front of it. I honestly think it might work better than the fridge. My house is like 11 degrees, though.

I decided anything so glorious needs a name, so you will see that I named her. It's the first thing that popped into my mind. Plus, I wanted to be able to tell everyone, "I busted a cap in Yo' Mammy!" without lying.

Notice the resemblance to the Saturn V rocket:
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Here's a pic of the second to last pour before it hardened. I'll top it off in about an hour. This is uncolored, new wax, so it's clearish/white. I mixed the previous two tubes, and, oddly enough, pink + blue = white. Who knew? But seriously though, the old wax turned white/light grey when I mixed the colors.

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Last edited by 21Carrier; 07-15-2011 at 22:41..
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Old 07-15-2011, 23:42   #166
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I'll keep my fingers crossed for ya that the shot ends up being straight and true! Long tube without much room for error.

Maybe you should take the shot at point blank range.
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Old 07-16-2011, 00:11   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
I'll keep my fingers crossed for ya that the shot ends up being straight and true! Long tube without much room for error.

Maybe you should take the shot at point blank range.
It will be close. Since this tube is so tall, I'm guessing the tube will be about 1-2 feet from the muzzle.
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Old 07-16-2011, 09:35   #168
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ven with your shot placed well, all you can hope for is that the bullet travels straight enough to stay inside! Looking great though...
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Old 07-16-2011, 19:03   #169
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Ok guys, sorry it took so long, but the 200gn WFNGC test has been done, and it all went to plan. I was up all night loading and finishing the tube so I overslept and had to wait until this afternoon. Here's the data:

200gn WFNGC

Again, thanks to NickE10mm for the bullets, this test would have been delayed without his help. The shot was perfectly centered, and the bullet went straight. It stopped right near the cardboard at the edge of the tube. Here are the metrics:

Load used: 9.3gn 800-X, CCI 300, new Starline nickel, COAL 1.253"

Update: this load chronographed a single shot velocity (that's all I had) of 1166fps on 8/4/11. I also chronographed the same bullet with 9.0gr 800-X, which had a single shot velocity of 1168fps, so it should be ballpark.

Penetration: 25.5"
Max wound diameter: 1"
Max bullet dia: .397"
Min bullet dia: .393"
Retained mass: 196.9gn
Pre-fired mass: 200.0gn

Well, from this test it seems clear that this bullet has one purpose: penetration. I was a bit surprised that the wound tract was not wider. The entrance hole was 1" in diameter, and the wound tract got narrower as the bullet penetrated and velocity was lost. Wound diameter equalled bullet diameter around 9" of penetration. Beyond that, the wound tract diameter was actually LESS than bullet diameter due to the medium rebounding. I cross-sectioned the tube at the 22" mark, and the hole was about .2" in diameter (see picture). I still think this bullet will do more damage than a truncated cone FMJ (due to the wider flat nose), but I feel a similarly weighted FMJ would penetrate a few inches more (I will test it). I expected a larger diameter wound tract, but this would likely be the ideal bullet for large game hunting/large animal SD. I think a heavy XTP would be better for medium game. Given my previous calculations, I would estimate this bullet/load would penetrate about 47" in water/gelatin.

Pictures:

Here's the bullet that made the mess:
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The first part of the tube:
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This is what it looked like when I opened the tube:
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Here's a cross-section of the tube at the 22" mark. Notice the small diameter of the hole:
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I forgot to take pictures of the bullet, and I'm about to eat, so I'll add them soon. I also tested a 180gn Ranier Plated HP that Nick sent me in the tube, and a 165gn Golden Saber in water. I'll post all of that in a little bit.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-05-2011 at 07:13..
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Old 07-16-2011, 19:53   #170
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Exactly as predicted. Nicely done.

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Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
Max wound diameter: 1"
Chalk up one point for http://www.beartoothbullets.com/resc.../php/wound.htm which predicted: "Wound channel diameter of 1" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .32", and a striking velocity of 1250 fps."

I can't think of anything that wouldn't kill.
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Old 07-16-2011, 20:10   #171
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Originally Posted by hypnagogue View Post
Chalk up one point for http://www.beartoothbullets.com/resc.../php/wound.htm which predicted: "Wound channel diameter of 1" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .32", and a striking velocity of 1250 fps."

I can't think of anything that wouldn't kill.
I went back to take measurements of the wound tract at 3" intervals. Here's the data:

Penetration Depth------Wound Tract Diameter
0"-------------------------------------1.000"
3"--------------------------------------.543"
6"--------------------------------------.502"
9"--------------------------------------.415"
12"-------------------------------------.294"
15"-------------------------------------.230"
18"-------------------------------------.216"
21"-------------------------------------.229"
24"-------------------------------------.220"
Average---------------------------------.405"

So, it seems the ENTRANCE hole is 1", but the wound diameter quickly narrows. However, I'm sure it would still be a good bit larger than an FMJ's tract. I would guess an average of .275-.325" for an FMJ.

Pictures of bullet:

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Last edited by 21Carrier; 07-16-2011 at 20:12..
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Old 07-16-2011, 20:26   #172
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Another At-a-Boy to Carrier21 for yet another great test. The Gas Check remained on the bullet so it seems, many say they fly off, I have seen many of my 357's & 44's with check remaining with the bullet!

Thanks again!
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Old 07-16-2011, 20:36   #173
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Great experiment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
So, it seems the ENTRANCE hole is 1", but the wound diameter quickly narrows.
Yes, that's what you would expect: the wound channel narrows as the bullet loses velocity.
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Old 07-16-2011, 21:18   #174
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Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
Another At-a-Boy to Carrier21 for yet another great test. The Gas Check remained on the bullet so it seems, many say they fly off, I have seen many of my 357's & 44's with check remaining with the bullet!

Thanks again!
No problem! Yeah, the gas check stayed on, but I shot two at water jugs before the test to test the load, and one of them lost a gas check. I didn't recover the bullets, but I found a gas check on the ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnagogue View Post
Yes, that's what you would expect: the wound channel narrows as the bullet loses velocity.
Yeah, that's what I was expecting. As long as the shape of the bullet doesn't change, that's just physics.
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Old 07-17-2011, 11:16   #175
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Great work, Carrier. Although the wound channel is not very impressive, penetration definitely is, and that recovered bullet is about perfect except for the rifling engrained on it. The true benefit of these bullets is their ability to smash through thick bones and continue on their path through tissue with relatively little deformation. Even if they lose stability inside tissue and tumble, they still are going to stay together. I don't know if that would be true 100% of the time with an FMJ that could (and probably would be) filled with a softer lead alloy.

On the 200gr WFNGC bullets. They'll do the job they were intended for.

Thanks for doing the hard work, Carrier.
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Old 07-17-2011, 13:57   #176
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Thanks for the test of the 200gr WFNGC.

Great for comparison to all you tested so far and to come.

Not something that will ever be loaded in my 10mm unless I move to Grizzly territory. Clearly though they have a purpose!


Thanks again,
Craig
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Old 07-17-2011, 17:22   #177
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Yesterday, when I tested the 200gn WFNGC bullet, I also tested the 180gn Ranier Plated HP that Nick sent me. Since the WFNGC bullet did not fully penetrate the entire 37" of wax tube, I had about 11-12" worth of untouched wax left over (I actually had more like 14" worth of USEABLE wax left since the WFNGC bullet veered slightly toward the end). I used it to test the Ranier.

180gn Rainier Plated HP Wax Tube Test

Thanks again to NickE10mm for sending me this bullet. This bullet actually seemed to do pretty well. The wound chamber was quite large, and penetration was good. The bullet over-expanded, but the plated on "jacket" did not fully separate. You can think of this as a Gold Dot with a thin jacket. It is actually made to look very similar, and the "jacket's" adhesion to the lead is exceptional, though not up to Gold Dot standards. It is obvious that the plating is MUCH thinner than a jacket. Here are the metrics:

NOTE: because this wax tube had already been used, and I had cut open the surrounding cardboard tube (and accidentally scored the wax), this test MAY be slightly compromised. When I shot it, the wax split along the line where my knife had accidentally scored it. Also, without the support of the cardboard, the wax blew open slightly. This may have caused the wound tract to be slightly larger than usual. I don't think it affected things that much, but maybe it did.

Load used: new Starline brass, CCI 300, 9.7gn 800-X, COAL 1.260"

Update: this load chronographed a 4-shot average of 1226fps on 8/4/11.

Max expansion: .504"
Min expansion: .458"
Retained mass: 138.4gn
Penetration: 11.5"
Max wound tract dia.: 2"

Overall, it did pretty well for a plated cheap-o bullet. I think it would actually be a decent performer at .40S&W or lower 10mm speeds. If it hadn't over-expanded, and the lead petals broken off, it would likely have had great expansion.

Pictures:

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Sorry for the kitty paw in this picture, I was babysitting my girlfriend's kitten. He was sitting in my lap while taking the picture, and he kept trying to attack the bullet.
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165gn Golden Saber Water Jug Test

Again, thanks to NickE10mm for this bullet. I tested two 165gn Golden Sabers in some water jugs, both with similar results. The core ends up over-expanding and separating from the jacket, while the jacket looks like it might be the most awful thing on Earth to have in your body. I have high hopes for these bullets, so I'm hoping they will do better in the wax. I think they will since water offers more hydraulic action than wax/gelatin/tissue, and tends to tear bullets apart.

Load used: Starline nickel, CCI 300s, 11.2gr 800-X, COAL 1.260"

Update: this load chronographed a single shot velocity of 1397fps on 8/4/11 (I only had one left).

Here are the measurements and pictures:

Max JACKET expansion: 1.349" (Yes, nearly 1.5"!!!)
Min JACKET expansion: .741"
Max CORE expansion: .590" (all the petals were gone)
Min CORE expansion: .506"
Retained JACKET mass: 39.3gn
Retained CORE mass: 89.9gn
Combined retained mass: 129.4gn

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I will be testing this 165gn Golden Saber and a 150gn Nosler JHP in the wax tube next. Hopefully this week, or next weekend at the latest.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-05-2011 at 07:15..
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Old 07-17-2011, 20:26   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDC20 View Post
Great work, Carrier. Although the wound channel is not very impressive, penetration definitely is, and that recovered bullet is about perfect except for the rifling engrained on it. The true benefit of these bullets is their ability to smash through thick bones and continue on their path through tissue with relatively little deformation. Even if they lose stability inside tissue and tumble, they still are going to stay together. I don't know if that would be true 100% of the time with an FMJ that could (and probably would be) filled with a softer lead alloy.

On the 200gr WFNGC bullets. They'll do the job they were intendked for.

Thanks for doing the hard work, Carrier.
Agreed. Great work Carrier!

I carry this bullet in the Idaho wilderness because of the reasons you outline above. We have creatures that would probably do fine with a heavy XTP (wolves, cougar, and smaller black bear), but I have been startled by moose and baby outside my tent on more than one occasion. In some areas near Yellowstone and near the Canadian border, the occasional brown bear can be found. Now a heavy revolver would be more suitable, obviously, than a Glock 20, but i do not have one. The WFNGC will give me the best chance of penetration to vitals or cns on the big meanies.
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Old 07-17-2011, 22:51   #179
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Nice report! I'm especially anxious to see the next wax tube tests using the 165gn Golden Saber and 150gn Nosler JHP! BTW, how hot will they be loaded? I'm hoping to see better results (width of the wound track) than last seen with the 180gr Rainier Plated HP.
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:26   #180
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Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
Nice report! I'm especially anxious to see the next wax tube tests using the 165gn Golden Saber and 150gn Nosler JHP! BTW, how hot will they be loaded? I'm hoping to see better results (width of the wound track) than last seen with the 180gr Rainier Plated HP.
As with the rest of my tests, they will be loaded as fast as I am comfortable shooting out of my gun. I am doing all of this primarily to find out which bullets are tough enough to handle 10mm velocities. Obviously, we also learn more in the process, namely bullet wounding performance, expansion, and penetration. After I'm done with every bullet that I want to test, I will likely go back and retest some at lower velocities. However, for now, I want to see which bullets can REALLY handle 10mm velocity. The 165gr GSHPs will be loaded with either 11.0gn or 11.2gn 800-X, and the 150gn Noslers will likely be 13.3gn Blue Dot. I might use 800-X with the 150s, but I'm not sure yet. I'm expecting about 1350-1375fps for the GSHP, and 1450fps for the Nosler.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 07-18-2011 at 02:27..
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