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Old 05-06-2011, 23:06   #1
Dukeboy01
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Krav Maga vs. PPCT

So I finished my 40 hours of inservice training this week. This year my department subjected me to 16 hours of introduction to "Krav Maga" which, near as I can tell, is Hebrew for "Punch 'em in the junk." It seemed like every third move ended with a strike to the fruity pebbles.

I figure we probably have some Krav aficianados on here. I was wondering if some of you could share your insights into the appropriateness and/ or usefulness of Krav for law enforcement officers.

Here are my observations after an admittedly very brief introduction. For the record, I'm not and have never been a martial artist of any kind. My self- defense training is primarily PPCT, but I'm not an instructor.

1. 16 hours of Krav instruction is just enough time to give the average LEO enough knowledge to be dangerous.

2. The moves, while simpler than the forms in other martial arts, are several orders of magnitude more technical than the gross motor moves taught in PPCT.

3. It was pretty clear that the instructors were trying to "tone down" the lethality to make it more liability friendly.

4. The Krav response to resistance is much more aggressive than PPCT in several ways, some of which I found kind of reckless, for lack of a better term. For example, we were introduced to the Krav method of weapon retention if a bad guy tried to take your gun from the holster. For almost 14 years I have practiced trapping the snap, lowering my center of gravity, twisting away to break their grip on the gun, gaining complete control of the weapon, and then counter attacking when appropriate.

The Krav method called for attacking your opponent before you had gained complete and total control of the weapon. That just seemed wrong to me. I beleive that in a highly stressful situation, like a struggle over a gun, you are better served devoting your attention and energy to securing the gun before you worry specifically about hurting your opponent. If your opponent happens to be hurt by your efforts to gain control of the gun, that's great.

Anyway, what are the CT brain trust's thoughts on Krav maga?
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Old 05-06-2011, 23:19   #2
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KM is a military martial art. Military forms of hand to hand combat are lethal in nature (or are supposed to be, don't get me started on MCMAP). I would be hesitant to use any of the old school LINE training from my early days in the Corps on the street as a cop, because it's not geared to subduing an opponent, it's geared toward killing them ASAP.

FWIW I have no real world experience with Krav Maga, I'm just generalizing on military oriented fighting systems in general. I'd think PPCT is more useful for what we do day to day.
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Old 05-06-2011, 23:40   #3
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I am a longtime practitioner of standard and LE KM. There is a huge difference. I started in 2006. I was introduced at a previous PD and ended up going to a private school.

The thing about KM, is it isn't an art which requires continued learning. That's not the way the Israelis intended it. Once you learn it (its very easy), you need only stay proficient. There isn't a continued learning element like other arts.

My new department moved to KM this year as well. It was interesting seeing my liberal panty waist department put their own twist on it.

One other good thing is that it let's you articulate just about any strike. There is nothing quite like having a guy try a little.active aggression and reaping a no.3 elbow. its also quite astounding seeing what 6'3"/240lbs can do once it gets going. I had never broken someone's orbit before.
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Old 05-07-2011, 01:40   #4
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While admittedly I'm no expert, I did take Krav for a while, and have been mandated to stay proficient in PPCT for going on 10 years now. I will admit that Krav is WAY uglier than pretty much anything going, but the few times I've used it, it works like a charm. Like Cochese said, these are techniques that are easily learned and nearly foolproof to retain.

With regard to your observations, here's my take on it:

1. YES! Personally, if you're getting 16 hours of Krav training, you're going to be all the better for it, but in my opinion, it should be followed PROMPTLY by a class on report writing.

2. I personally found the techniques in Krav to be a great deal simpler than PPCT, if only due to the fact that in my opinion the latter focuses on striking specific points, whereas the former focuses on striking general areas (a la your fruity pebbles).

3. Sight unseen, I can wholeheartedly agree with this. One of the guest instructors at the school I was attending was some IDF Special Forces somethin-er-other and seemed to have a hard time realizing that the answer to every LE situation isn't "and then you break their neck." But I digest...

4. I can agree with the overall statement that Krav is (or at least is percieved to be) much more aggressive, but with regard to the weapon retention specifically, I was taught that you're addressing the threat (the hand on your weapon) while simultaneously throwing a strike (punch, kick, pocket full of sand, et al). I've heard it called "bursting" as well as some other things, but if your instructor had you doing those parts of the techniques seperately, I'd see if I could pull them aside and get their take on that, if for no other reason than clarification.

As I said, I've only used Krav a few times (for some reason I seem to revert to my wrestling days), but when I applied it, it worked like a charm, so I've got a somewhat slanted view on it. If nothing else, put a few of the things you're comfortable with in your bag o' tricks and pull em out if/when you need them. Hope you enjoyed yourself, and hope we were able to help!

P.S. I gotta agree with Cochese, it's amazing what a properly delivered forearm strike can do from someone who has been described as "lineman-esque."
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Old 05-07-2011, 06:55   #5
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We looked at KM. The bosses decided that the public perception that it's just "street fighting" might not bode well should we end up in a civil suit. So now we're looking at a program called Natural Response Control Tactics. We'll see.
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Old 05-07-2011, 08:02   #6
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Originally Posted by Dukeboy01 View Post
This year my department subjected me to 16 hours of introduction to "Krav Maga" which, near as I can tell, is Hebrew for "Punch 'em in the junk."
Some followup training from a master would be a good idea. Those moves should be engrained in muscle memory to be instinctive and instantaneous to be maximally effective. No time to hesitate in that situation, or think about what needs to be done. Not sure if 16 hours is enough to engrain it.

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Old 05-07-2011, 08:14   #7
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I am not LE but I do practice Krav. If you read the history of Krav it was never ment to be PC. It is very effective and easy to learn. The other nice thing about Krav is even very petit women can use it very effectively. I can understand the position LE is in when it comes to public perception on the use of force. I personally think LE has their hand tied to much by the PC crowd. Thanks for doing what you do.

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Old 05-07-2011, 08:37   #8
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Pretty much what everyone said - KM is the way to go.

I'm not impressed with any PPCT stuff except for the spontaneous knife defense instructor class I took a decade ago. Simplistic and it works with easy muscle memory which is what I am looking for.
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Old 05-07-2011, 08:47   #9
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Quote:
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I am a longtime practitioner of standard and LE KM. There is a huge difference. I started in 2006. I was introduced at a previous PD and ended up going to a private school.

The thing about KM, is it isn't an art which requires continued learning. That's not the way the Israelis intended it. Once you learn it (its very easy), you need only stay proficient. There isn't a continued learning element like other arts.

My new department moved to KM this year as well. It was interesting seeing my liberal panty waist department put their own twist on it.

One other good thing is that it let's you articulate just about any strike. There is nothing quite like having a guy try a little.active aggression and reaping a no.3 elbow. its also quite astounding seeing what 6'3"/240lbs can do once it gets going. I had never broken someone's orbit before.
And here I thought the only martial art you knew was "Gun Pimping."

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Old 05-07-2011, 09:21   #10
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Here's what administrators don't quite get (okay, they don't get a lot, and this is one thing):

Cops have to have two very different modes. While we spend most of our lives controlling and arresting people (hence PPCT) an arrest can go bad in an instant and we're now in a hand-to-hand fight for our lives. It's difficult making that transition, and the transition is rare anyway. While PPCT is not well-designed for that switch, most administrators don't care too much--dealing with the everyday liability in an arrest is more important.

Sometimes you just need to eff somebody up. Krav does it, and gives you a system and series of trained responses instead of just going Neandertal on his butt. The DT trainers, who're going to be the expert witnesses for the department, need to be fully on-board. It's better that every cop's on-board and can articulate things, but that may not be practical in a large agency. But where the rookie can say that he fell back on training, the trainer has to have more detail.

The next issue is to have a system whose techniques allows a seamless transition from making an arrest to survival. Krav's not quite there, IMO. But it's way ahead of a system designed for mere control.
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Old 05-07-2011, 10:50   #11
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Here's what administrators don't quite get (okay, they don't get a lot, and this is one thing):

Cops have to have two very different modes. While we spend most of our lives controlling and arresting people (hence PPCT) an arrest can go bad in an instant and we're now in a hand-to-hand fight for our lives. It's difficult making that transition, and the transition is rare anyway. While PPCT is not well-designed for that switch, most administrators don't care too much--dealing with the everyday liability in an arrest is more important.

Sometimes you just need to eff somebody up. Krav does it, and gives you a system and series of trained responses instead of just going Neandertal on his butt. The DT trainers, who're going to be the expert witnesses for the department, need to be fully on-board. It's better that every cop's on-board and can articulate things, but that may not be practical in a large agency. But where the rookie can say that he fell back on training, the trainer has to have more detail.

The next issue is to have a system whose techniques allows a seamless transition from making an arrest to survival. Krav's not quite there, IMO. But it's way ahead of a system designed for mere control.
+1 I have maintained for a long time that many officers are being hurt and even killed because they can't or won't transition from "arrest mode" to "blitz their ass mode".
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Old 05-07-2011, 11:32   #12
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Originally Posted by silverado_mick View Post
KM is a military martial art. Military forms of hand to hand combat are lethal in nature (or are supposed to be, don't get me started on MCMAP). I would be hesitant to use any of the old school LINE training from my early days in the Corps on the street as a cop, because it's not geared to subduing an opponent, it's geared toward killing them ASAP.
It's funny you brought LINE training. The DT taught when I went through the academy was a modified version of LINE training (minus the finishing moves), with some basic ground fighting (BJJ) sprinkled in.

Now we have changed our DT to Krav Maga.
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Old 05-07-2011, 11:56   #13
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Old 05-07-2011, 12:20   #14
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Thanks for the responses. I think we can all agree that Krav is definitely better than PPCT if your goal is to injure or kill your opponent, especially with your bare hands.
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Old 05-07-2011, 15:10   #15
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You do what you have to do to go home at the end of your shift. If you punch them in the junk so be it you just need to be able to justify what and why and how you did it. An officer just knocked a guys teeth out and when he wrote the report it sailed through with flying colors...were not trained to knock teeth out but hey if you write the report correctly your good. take a TACTICAL wrighting course... and never mind the combat stuff...
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Old 05-07-2011, 16:00   #16
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You do what you have to do to go home at the end of your shift. If you punch them in the junk so be it you just need to be able to justify what and why and how you did it.
I have no financial interest in this school, and I highly recommend this particular school for that particular martial arts discipline

Randy

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Old 05-07-2011, 16:19   #17
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Krav Maga...FTW!
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Old 05-07-2011, 16:39   #18
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+1 I have maintained for a long time that many officers are being hurt and even killed because they can't or won't transition from "arrest mode" to "blitz their ass mode".
QFT! I've seen too many guys yelling "sir, stop resisting" and dancing around with a BG when they should have been dropping him on his head.

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It's funny you brought LINE training. The DT taught when I went through the academy was a modified version of LINE training (minus the finishing moves), with some basic ground fighting (BJJ) sprinkled in.

Now we have changed our DT to Krav Maga.
Interesting. The reason I used that as an example is that with the hours of repetition spent on the techniques, I'd be afraid of my training taking over and not stopping till the heel of my boot was covered in goop. Not entirely a bad thing, I know, ut tough to explain to a lawyer I would imagine
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Old 05-07-2011, 19:14   #19
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When dealing with malcontents I have always found that the gentle application joint locks and pressure points along with an occasional slam to a hard surface works well.
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Old 05-08-2011, 11:47   #20
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Not entirely a bad thing, I know, ut tough to explain to a lawyer I would imagine
I could only imagine the tin-foil hat crowd reacting to somebody getting stomped by an officer using "military training."
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Old 05-08-2011, 14:49   #21
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The best form of training for LE is something that teaches arrest and control tactics, fighting, weapon retention, your depts policy, and constitutional law. This comes from 24 years of martial arts (primarily Filipino), 17 years of LE, and 9 years as a DT instructor. PPCT is a must for the information and basic arrest and control tactics. I've mixed in SSGT and Pekiti-Tirsia with PPCT and a lot of training from FLETC with a heavy dose of constitutional law. IMHO we are far too often told what we can't do as opposed to what we can do. A focus on liability over survival is a problem that we impose upon ourselves. You can gouge eyes, crush throats, break arms, as readily as shooting, handcuffing, spraying, tasing, etc. someone WITHOUT having to get creative in a report. Your force response is based on the threat at the time said force was used. Just explain in your report what your reason was for being there, your probable cause for the arrest, explain the resistance to the arrest and what type of threat you faced, and explain your fear. Don't embellish and don't lie. Too often I read the heroic officer report here he/she isn't afraid and show no emotion in their report. Heroism isn't an absence of fear. It's doing what your called upon to do DESPITE being afraid. Write it that way, make sure that if they assault you that you charge them with that. It's not just resisting arrest. Make your actions fit the local self defense statutes and that your description of the suspects actions are a violation of the law you're sworn to enforce.
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Old 05-08-2011, 17:42   #22
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I have used both now - when I started, they taught us PPCT. Last year/summer we transitioned to Krav (with some agency twists) under the acronym DTAC. The foundation of that program is Krav.

It's been almost a year now since we switched, and there is no comparison to me. PPCT was HORRIBLE. It was technical, favored retreating and pleading, and required a lot of practice to make work in a fight. More often than not, it seemed most of us tried it, and ended up rolling around or moving in circles.

Krav is different for me. Its easier to remember, easier to use and far more direct and effective. "Quit resisting" works a lot better as a verbal command when Joe Dirtball is flat on his back and his chicklets are sprinkled all over the ground in front of him. I have seen a few use of force now that ended a lot differently than they used to. No injured cops, no wrecked uniforms - just EMS evaluating a suspect, and a trip to the jail.

PPCT sucked. It had the "aura" of being a losers system. You fended off an attack and disengaged. You struck and disengaged. Everything seemed to be about disengaging and yelling "stop!" Krav is definitely geared towards ending fights quickly and roughly. It's a forward momentum kind of system that encourages tipping the scale, then stomping a mudhole in the person that tried to hurt you. Personally, I would like a system that teaches you to fight back, fight hard and win instead of one that was about backing up and yelling "quit resisting."

This is all my opinion of course. I am sure PPCT can be pretty damn effective with the right person and training. It wasn't for me and all of the guys I work with. We hated it with a passion. Krav just seems to be more effective in less training time - which lets face it, is the common denominator in policing these days. Krav is combat proven on the battlefield and streets, and that works for me. If somebody is going to step up and swing on a cop, then he/she should be expecting to be on the losing end of an ass kicking. Krav delivers that.
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Old 05-08-2011, 18:15   #23
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I used the EFWCH system.

Elbows,Forearms,Walls,Car hood.

it was pretty effective.

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Old 05-08-2011, 19:22   #24
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I used the EFWCH system.

Elbows,Forearms,Walls,Car hood.

it was pretty effective.

Wait...

Is that a similar technique to OFAK?

(old fashioned ass kicking)
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Old 05-08-2011, 20:15   #25
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Wait...

Is that a similar technique to OFAK?

(old fashioned ass kicking)
I have used that. 100% effective. Sometimes with a little monkey stomp, (oh did I say that?).
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