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Old 05-13-2011, 13:40   #1
holesinpaper
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Another "What's the RAS for stopping someone carrying?" thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by swatbwana View Post
Say I pull a guy over 0 dark thirty for a minor offense( rolled a STOP), but he's coming out of a neighborhood, a check of his licence shows he lives no where near the area he's coming from coincidentally it has had a rash of car break ins.

I see a GPS unit and a laptop in his backseat.

When I ask him where he's coming from and he says"AM I BEING DETAINED"

He may have just madE his night a little longer....

He could be coming from his GF house after a booty call or any number of reasonable explanations OR he's a crook....
If I get him out of the car to talk, he says nothing about his firearm after I ask and I make the connection I WILL TERRY FRISK HIM...
What is your RAS? Was it:

Time of night?

Him asking if he's being detained?

The presence of a GPS unit?

The presence of a laptop?

Him not volunteering about his carry status (which may or may not be required in your state, I'd guess it is NOT)?

How exactly do you "make his night longer?"

How will you "get him our of his car" if he is making it clear he does not wish to be "detained?" A trick? A lie? Emotional appeal? Direct verbal pressure? (all of which are allowed by law afaik)

How exactly can you legally justify a Terry Frisk in that situation, without being a liar or infringing on his rights?

If he had politely said "I will accept the citation, anything beyond that please speak to my attorney, Mr. XYZ at 555-555-5555" would that had made his night longer too? In our Constitutional Republic, how can that sort of request legitimately raise a red flag?

~Genuinely curious.

I assume you will say the RAS is 1) recent vehicle break ins. 2) He does not live in the area. Well, that would extend RAS to a whole metric crap load of people driving down various roads in America. I can't envision a court upholding that benchmark as establishing RAS.

And did the break ins occur that very night? Or did they occur last week? Last month? Last year? The temporal relationship between the break ins and your stop could likely be very important (just a WAG)

Regarding those break ins? Is there a suspect description? A vehicle description? Anything at all that would potentially link THIS specific peaceful drive to THOSE crimes? A lack of suspect description would likely be VERY important in your inability to establish legitimate RAS if you're trying to use that as the basis (this might depend a lot on state case law though).

Now if you saw a crowbar, a slim jim, a screw driver, etc in his back seat... then you'd have a reasonable suspicion. But a lap top and GPS in the year 2012 are both ordinary contents of a average vehicle -- imho. I think you would need to have an active report for a stolen lap top and gps, for a car prowl that occurred in that neighborhood, to use those items to get RAS.

And no I would not argue that with you, personally I'd just say talk to my attorney.

BTW in MY state, the mere presence of a legally carried firearm, without any other escalating factors, would NOT give you RAS or grounds for a Terry Stop. But... should I be fearful of pointing that out an officer, in case he might "make my night longer?" It's also not lawful for an officer to seize a lawfully carried firearm in my state, assuming no other (real) suspicious activity. (ok, this paragraph is a little tease but it's also true)

This is the sort of neat stuff one learns about on www.opencarry.org Almost always with links to case law, or state law that clearly spell things out.

Last edited by holesinpaper; 05-13-2011 at 14:04..
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Old 05-13-2011, 14:03   #2
holesinpaper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swatbwana View Post
He could be coming from his GF house after a booty call or any number of reasonable explanations OR he's a crook....
If I get him out of the car to talk, he says nothing about his firearm after I ask and I make the connection I WILL TERRY FRISK HIM...
Just an FYI, that's is exactly the sort of information he is not required to tell you. And not telling you, does not create RAS. Not telling you also does not make him a crook or a bad guy.

Last edited by holesinpaper; 05-13-2011 at 14:03..
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Old 05-13-2011, 14:34   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holesinpaper View Post
What is your RAS? Was it:

Time of night?

Him asking if he's being detained?

The presence of a GPS unit?

The presence of a laptop?

Him not volunteering about his carry status (which may or may not be required in your state, I'd guess it is NOT)?

How exactly do you "make his night longer?"

How will you "get him our of his car" if he is making it clear he does not wish to be "detained?" A trick? A lie? Emotional appeal? Direct verbal pressure? (all of which are allowed by law afaik)

How exactly can you legally justify a Terry Frisk in that situation, without being a liar or infringing on his rights?

If he had politely said "I will accept the citation, anything beyond that please speak to my attorney, Mr. XYZ at 555-555-5555" would that had made his night longer too? In our Constitutional Republic, how can that sort of request legitimately raise a red flag?

~Genuinely curious.

I assume you will say the RAS is 1) recent vehicle break ins. 2) He does not live in the area. Well, that would extend RAS to a whole metric crap load of people driving down various roads in America. I can't envision a court upholding that benchmark as establishing RAS.

And did the break ins occur that very night? Or did they occur last week? Last month? Last year? The temporal relationship between the break ins and your stop could likely be very important (just a WAG)

Regarding those break ins? Is there a suspect description? A vehicle description? Anything at all that would potentially link THIS specific peaceful drive to THOSE crimes? A lack of suspect description would likely be VERY important in your inability to establish legitimate RAS if you're trying to use that as the basis (this might depend a lot on state case law though).

Now if you saw a crowbar, a slim jim, a screw driver, etc in his back seat... then you'd have a reasonable suspicion. But a lap top and GPS in the year 2012 are both ordinary contents of a average vehicle -- imho. I think you would need to have an active report for a stolen lap top and gps, for a car prowl that occurred in that neighborhood, to use those items to get RAS.

And no I would not argue that with you, personally I'd just say talk to my attorney.

BTW in MY state, the mere presence of a legally carried firearm, without any other escalating factors, would NOT give you RAS or grounds for a Terry Stop. But... should I be fearful of pointing that out an officer, in case he might "make my night longer?" It's also not lawful for an officer to seize a lawfully carried firearm in my state, assuming no other (real) suspicious activity. (ok, this paragraph is a little tease but it's also true)

This is the sort of neat stuff one learns about on www.opencarry.org Almost always with links to case law, or state law that clearly spell things out.
Well I will tell you how I get him out of the vehicle I have him stopped for a legitimate reason I may at any time order him from the vehicle.. His "am I being detained "will have no effect on me..
And yes what I just metioned is RAS absent a reasonable explanation... care to roll the dice on it?

If you did what I described and were armed , a Terry frisk would reveal it and YOU would be DISARMED during the stop.
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Old 05-13-2011, 14:39   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swatbwana View Post
what I just metioned is RAS absent a reasonable explanation
Exactly which part of what you mentioned?

What does HE need a "reasonable explanation" for?
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Old 05-13-2011, 14:52   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holesinpaper View Post
What does HE need a "reasonable explanation" for?
Good point. No matter what kind of explaination HE is given, HE's not going to stop whining and crying like a 10 y.o. girl.
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Old 05-13-2011, 15:12   #6
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Carry Issues
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Old 05-13-2011, 15:18   #7
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Originally Posted by BailRecoveryAgent View Post
Carry Issues


Damn, forgot what I was going to post.
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Old 05-13-2011, 15:37   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post


Damn, forgot what I was going to post.
This thread is still confusing to me, I must have missed the original thread with the disagreement between swatbwanna and holes in paper.
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Old 05-13-2011, 15:41   #9
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Simple answer is that the rights of the American citizen have been so diluted by so many court rulings that the American citizen really has no rights!
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Old 05-13-2011, 15:43   #10
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I don’t know what state this scenario is taking place in, but I’ve been stopped twice here in Florida, once for speeding and once for a burned out tail light. Both times I gave the officer my DL and CCW permit (I know it’s not required in Florida) and neither cop seemed at all concerned that I was armed.

I don’t understand how a Terry stop is justified on a guy who’s pulled over for a minor traffic violation and is legally armed. Is he suspected of committing a crime? Based on what? Driving through an area where crimes have been committed? Are you kidding?
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Old 05-13-2011, 15:51   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booker View Post
Simple answer is that the rights of the American citizen have been so diluted by so many court rulings that the American citizen really has no rights!
  • Shall Issue is the law of the land.
  • Stand your ground laws have passed in many states.
  • Constitutional Carry is gaining ground.
Yet you rail at the loss of rights.

Would you be so kind as to outline what rights have been so diluted?
Please cite court cases/rulings and the effect to those rights before/after.

Thanks in advance.
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Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 05-13-2011, 16:05   #12
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Old 05-13-2011, 16:18   #13
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We've had this discussion before. IMO refusal to talk to LE is not RAS.. It's the 5th Amendment at work
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Old 05-13-2011, 16:26   #14
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"Totality of Circumstances" really is the answer, despite many who always seem to want to focus on one detail/fact/thought out of the entire situation.
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"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters".

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"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”


Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 05-13-2011, 16:37   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheeBadOne View Post
  • Shall Issue is the law of the land.
  • Stand your ground laws have passed in many states.
  • Constitutional Carry is gaining ground.
Yet you rail at the loss of rights.

Would you be so kind as to outline what rights have been so diluted?
Please cite court cases/rulings and the effect to those rights before/after.

Thanks in advance.
Constitutional, not conceal carry, let the questions begin...
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Old 05-13-2011, 16:38   #16
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The last traffic stop that I had over in MO, I managed to never utter a single word to the officer. Showed my DL and I was on my way. He caught me on radar (just slightly over) but apparently I wasn't what he was looking for. I'm serious, I never even said a single word and the traffic stop was over in under 3 minutes. Not sure what that was all about. BTW, I never have anything in plain sight and because state law doesn't require it (I try not to lead in or mention a firearm within the first few minutes until I can better under the situation).

Just had to get that in, back to this thread:
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Old 05-13-2011, 17:13   #17
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This thread is still confusing to me, I must have missed the original thread with the disagreement between swatbwanna and holes in paper.
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Last edited by Patchman; 05-13-2011 at 17:14..
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Old 05-13-2011, 17:13   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheeBadOne View Post
"Totality of Circumstances" really is the answer, despite many who always seem to want to focus on one detail/fact/thought out of the entire situation.
This the totality of the circumstances would give me RAS for a Terry frisk if I saw and outline and suspected he was armed.
Remember he is already pulled over for a traffic violation, he is leaving an area with a rash of recent car burglaries, he is not from that neighborhood, evasive in his answers, I ask if he's armed he says no I see a bulge of a weapon I HAVE RAS TO FRISK.
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Old 05-13-2011, 17:41   #19
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Quote:
Remember he is already pulled over for a traffic violation, he is leaving an area with a rash of recent car burglaries, he is not from that neighborhood, evasive in his answers, I ask if he's armed he says no I see a bulge of a weapon I HAVE RAS TO FRISK.
Is that what happened? Was he evasive? Did he deny being armed?

According to the Supreme Court, a Terry stop requires more than a "hunch" on the part of the cop, usually the same standard that would be required to issue a warrant. A bulge under a jacket could be anything. Why did you assume it was a weapon? Why did you assume he was carrying a weapon illegally?

And, just for fun, did the guy turn out to be a criminal?
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Old 05-13-2011, 17:56   #20
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Originally Posted by swatbwana View Post
This the totality of the circumstances would give me RAS for a Terry frisk if I saw and outline and suspected he was armed.
Remember he is already pulled over for a traffic violation, he is leaving an area with a rash of recent car burglaries, he is not from that neighborhood, evasive in his answers, I ask if he's armed he says no I see a bulge of a weapon I HAVE RAS TO FRISK.
Swatbwana, you have the patience of a saint. I don't see it's the job of LEO posters here to teach the law of frisk and search.

The test for you and other LEOs to see how you're doing is:

1. Your frisk/search have kept you safe;
2. The arrests you made where you used frisk/search have stood up in court.
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