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Old 05-17-2011, 08:07   #26
Free Radical
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I once had a neighbor that was of the Sovereign Citizen mind set. He could tell you a dozen reasons why the Feds had no rights to collect income taxes.

He doesn't live there anymore. His property was seized for failure to pay his taxes.
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Old 05-17-2011, 08:45   #27
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I grew up in an area in the 70s/80s that was heavy with posse and militia during that recession of the 80s. We now have an entire county in that same region that is being run by anti-gubment religious zealots, who took out contracts on almost every single official in the county government.

If your agency has restrictions on your off-duty carry, consider another agency. The Southern Poverty Law Center, another hate target for the sovereigns, has been studying these folks closely for some years now. Have your agency subscribe to their magazine for better details on their MO, and those like them.

If only they put that basic energy and focus into something like growing food, or holding a job, or getting an education, or finding something they like to do other than hating the government.

The summer I was in Basic Training in MO, 4 State Troopers were shot dead during traffic stops by "Soverign Citizens" over 20 years ago. It's not a new thing, unfortunately.
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Old 05-17-2011, 17:02   #28
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If your agency has restrictions on your off-duty carry, consider another agency.
don't know if I understand where you are coming from and not to Hi Jack the thread but how can an agency overrule HR218? I understand there are some administraitors that don't like it but it is federal Law unless you somehow don't fit the criteria!
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Old 05-17-2011, 17:22   #29
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don't know if I understand where you are coming from and not to Hi Jack the thread but how can an agency overrule HR218? I understand there are some administraitors that don't like it but it is federal Law unless you somehow don't fit the criteria!
An agency isnt "overrulling" LEOSA. They can set a policy against it though. You wont have any legal ramifications but you may very well have administrative issues (up to and including loss of your job)

LEOSA doesnt have anything to do with the policies of your agencies. It just allows you to be exempt from prosecution if you carry.
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Old 05-17-2011, 20:19   #30
doneroman
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don't know if I understand where you are coming from and not to Hi Jack the thread but how can an agency overrule HR218? I understand there are some administraitors that don't like it but it is federal Law unless you somehow don't fit the criteria!
Agency policy, in one County I was sworn in is/was, once you left that county you were like any other citizen in the state and subject to prosecution for carry. (WI has no CC.)

I don't know what you mean by .." you don't fit the criteria!", but your statement obviously shows some education weakness on your part of L.E. off-duty carry.
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Old 05-17-2011, 20:27   #31
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Agency policy, in one County I was sworn in is/was, once you left that county you were like any other citizen in the state and subject to prosecution for carry. (WI has no CC.)

I don't know what you mean by .." you don't fit the criteria!", but your statement obviously shows some education weakness on your part of L.E. off-duty carry.
I understand that but they can't go against a Federal Law. I work for the Federal Buerau of Prisons and we are covered, however our administration drug their feet at first and it took several people including the union to basically call them on it. I am by no means a trouble maker but if your administration is wrong I would suggest calling them on it and taking it to court. If you meet the criteria they will have a hard time justifing why they want to go against federal law. JMHO
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Old 05-17-2011, 21:00   #32
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Hey thanks for posting this link - I missed 60 minutes last night because I was at a Michigan militia/sovereign citizen/open carry meeting.
Why does it always come back to the Michigan Militia? Check out their website. They invited me to their family-friendly picnic last Spring, at the DNR range in southeast MI. They are a particular organization, not a general term for all militia members in MI (many of whom might be insurrectionists). I am not a member, and don;t know much about them, but it's been old for a while to hear jokes about the MI militia when people find out I'm from MI and am not anti-gun.
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Old 05-17-2011, 21:31   #33
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Originally Posted by meeko View Post
I understand that but they can't go against a Federal Law. I work for the Federal Buerau of Prisons and we are covered, however our administration drug their feet at first and it took several people including the union to basically call them on it. I am by no means a trouble maker but if your administration is wrong I would suggest calling them on it and taking it to court. If you meet the criteria they will have a hard time justifing why they want to go against federal law. JMHO
You still are missing what HR218 is.

(this is the important passage)

http://www.leaa.org/218/218text.html


(d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

It could just as easily say "may conduct police duties without a uniform..."

However, your AGENCY sure as hell can set a policy that states "We will not conduct police duties without a uniform"

Again, an agencies policies can tell you that you may not carry a firearm off duty. The penalty would be administrative...why, because HR 218 means it cant be CRIMINAL.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:44   #34
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Why does it always come back to the Michigan Militia?
For better or for worse, in the 90s, the MM pimped themselves out to every media outlet to get attention. The spotlight was on them and they reveled in it. So they garnered attention that has extended decades future because they were media hounds for awhile.

I find myself more in caution of the silent types, the ones that shun media attention. They are the ones to likely explode into their version of "righteous rage" against anyone in authority.
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:55   #35
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Had one wander into court a few weeks ago. Got shot down quick from what I heard.
We had an officer stop one a couple of months ago. He arrested him on a warrant (I think), and issued him a couple of citations. Since the jail here has a revolving door (powered by the courthouse), he was released ROR in the morning on his warrants and had an initial appearance set on the tickets. He started nailing us with various "subpoeanas" on the tickets almost immediately.

When it came time to initial appearance time on the tickets, somebody who claimed to be the "administrator for <NAME>" appeared for him. The judge was not impressed and ordered the "administrator" held on a $1000 cash bond on each ticket (knowing that it was our guy). After he sat in the pokey for two weeks, another judge reviewed the bond and decided that since the defendant had been required to personally appear at the initial and nobody claiming to be the defendant had been there, that they would just enter a conviction and judgment in the amount of the unsecured appearance bond (all citations here have an unsecured bond, which is 1.5x the fine + court costs that is the amount they owe if they FTA) and released him from jail.
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Old 05-19-2011, 04:09   #36
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Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
You still are missing what HR218 is.

(this is the important passage)

http://www.leaa.org/218/218text.html


(d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

It could just as easily say "may conduct police duties without a uniform..."

However, your AGENCY sure as hell can set a policy that states "We will not conduct police duties without a uniform"

Again, an agencies policies can tell you that you may not carry a firearm off duty. The penalty would be administrative...why, because HR 218 means it cant be CRIMINAL.

My Agency does. In BOP we have no arrest powers off duty however we are still covered. HR218 doesn't state a difference in off duty or on as far as arrest powers or several other criteria. There are a dozen different ways our adminisrtation in DC tried to circumvent it so they could tell us "NO". I suggest if you are with an agency that is doing that you should take it up with DOJ or take it through the court system.

Good luck
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:59   #37
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Originally Posted by meeko View Post
My Agency does. In BOP we have no arrest powers off duty however we are still covered. HR218 doesn't state a difference in off duty or on as far as arrest powers or several other criteria. There are a dozen different ways our adminisrtation in DC tried to circumvent it so they could tell us "NO". I suggest if you are with an agency that is doing that you should take it up with DOJ or take it through the court system.

Good luck
Your posts doesnt make a lot of sense to me based on what I said. Are you still taking the stance that an agency can not make a policy that you can not carry off duty?
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In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 05-28-2011, 19:07   #38
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Please be careful of swallowing everything the Southern Poverty Law Center says. They did some great work in the past but have evolved into a big time fund raising organization. They will paint with an overbroad brush. They have accused military vets, retired LEOs and Oathkeepers as anti government militia.
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Old 05-28-2011, 19:11   #39
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Please be careful of swallowing everything the Southern Poverty Law Center says. They did some great work in the past but have evolved into a big time fund raising organization. They will paint with an overbroad brush. They have accused military vets, retired LEOs and Oathkeepers as anti government militia.
OathCreepers ARE not any friend of the government from what I can tell.

And the SLPC is dead on WRT to them and the Sovereign Citizen Movement (as well as Posse Commitatus).

ETA:

Furthermore, I know that they (SPLC) has no great love for LE of any stripe.

Just because you dislike/distrust the source, don't dismiss the information.
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Old 05-28-2011, 20:19   #40
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Geez, I thought it was only me who read SPLC stuff.

I don't trust any individual organization's research or analysis and will always try to verify with a different source. Like any good investigation, one has to try and run down all the leads.

P.S. Now there's a report out that maybe Chairman Mao didn't write his own Little Red Book. So who can you really trust?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...k-2290164.html
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Last edited by Patchman; 05-29-2011 at 04:42.. Reason: Clarification & update
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Old 05-29-2011, 08:14   #41
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The other day my partner had a car stop and I heard him ask for back up, he recognized immediately he was dealing with a sovereign citizen. The Sov citizen was a total jackass, but the kicker is, active military. Pretty crazy, needless to say my Chief had a call to his CO immediately. Also, it was one of the few times courtsey was given to active military.
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Old 05-29-2011, 10:28   #42
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Also, it was one of the few times courtsey was given to active military.
I hope you mean "wasn't"; I wouldn't be dong the sovereign citizens any favors, military or not. Come to think of it, especially not military ones.
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Old 05-29-2011, 13:33   #43
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Our latest SC showed up to court on his citation. Per the citing officer (who had to be in court) he was well on his way to demanding that the court hold bail in silver and gold, third person, etc. All new to her as he was quiet on the initial traffic stop.

Had to remind folks to keep tabs on their credit records to ensure bogus liens didn't start popping up.
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Old 05-29-2011, 14:06   #44
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Why does it always come back to the Michigan Militia?
Probably because it's rolls off the tongue easily.

Like "Hanna Montana" and "Dora The Explorer."
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Old 05-29-2011, 18:24   #45
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For better or for worse, in the 90s, the MM pimped themselves out to every media outlet to get attention. The spotlight was on them and they reveled in it. So they garnered attention that has extended decades future because they were media hounds for awhile
Ya hit the X ring.
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Old 05-30-2011, 16:44   #46
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I hope you mean "wasn't"; I wouldn't be dong the sovereign citizens any favors, military or not. Come to think of it, especially not military ones.

My bad, I meant wasn't, lol.
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