GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-16-2011, 15:32   #1
bcj128
Senior Member
 
bcj128's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: La La Land
Posts: 735
Glocks with Lights...your experience - Input Needed

A couple of years back, our department bought and supplied a group of TLR-2 lights that we put on our Glock 22 and 23's. We immediately had issues, with FTF in many guns. WE then re-did the springs and followers on all the mags, and recoil springs, etc. The problems seemed solved, except the Glock 23's never worked right with the light. At the time, we were working with the Winchester Ranger 180 gr JHT (NON-T-Series).

About a year later, we switched to a better round, the Federal HST 180 gr. Now we are seeing the jams again, generally it's during one-handed firing.

I personally bought a M-3 light from Insight Technologies, and never had an issue with either ammo. I wonder if the metal TLR-2 is so heavy it causes the issues, while the lighter M-3 does not. I don't know.

Can anyone out there share if their department had issues with the lights/pistol combo? If so, what did you do to fix it?

Thanks all.
__________________
Certified Glock Armorer
G19 Gen 4, G21 Gen 4, G30S, G42, G35 Gen 3
Glocks...it's a sickness...
bcj128 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2011, 15:45   #2
grizz
Senior Member
 
grizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: TX
Posts: 404
This is a known issue with Gen 3 G22's andG23's. From what I understand, there is a different recoil spring assembly to address the issue (I'm not sure if you just replaced the old springs with identical ones or the different ones). The lights take some of the flex out of the frame, so you need different spring tension. Glock reportedly fixed that issue with the Gen4 guns. I also believe the increased rigidity in the frame exposes even more grip problems than usual.
grizz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2011, 15:54   #3
BMG22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 341
What grizz said...

Also from what I've read, the problem strikes some G22's and not others. Not sure what the percentage difference is, but I think the problems are in the distinct minority. I keep an Insight Tech M3 on my G22, and have never had any problems...
__________________
BMG22

Have the G17, G22 (x2), G23, G27, G35.....want the G24 (do I need to mention the G25 and G28?)
Autobots! Transform and roll out!
BMG22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2011, 16:05   #4
DaBigBR
No Infidels!
 
DaBigBR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Circling the wagons.
Posts: 15,924
The issue is actually a frame flex issue. The frame near the dustcover is designed to be able to flex as the gun functions. The all metal tactical lights, in some cases, inhibit this flex sufficiently to cause feeding problems. The official fix from Glock is new mag springs (11 coil) and followers, however this fix does not seem to actually fix every gun. I have not heard of a different recoil spring (other than the variety of springs for the 9mm Gen 4 guns), but would not rule it out. Glock is not always very vocal about these "upgrades."

To the best of my knowledge, only .40 caliber weapons are affected. The 9mm, .357, .45 ACP, 10mm, and .45 GAP versions should run fine with the metal tactical lights attached.

The most frustrating thing about the issue is how inconsistent it is. I have seen it a handful of times, but it is usually fixed with springs. For some time I carried a G23 with a Surefire X300 attached and +2 extensions on my magazines (13+2 in the gun and two 15+2 magazines on my belt. If any gun would have feeding problems, it would be mine, and yet it never happened.
__________________
"Logic is rarely the engine that propels a police department forward."

-David Simon in "Homicide"
DaBigBR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2011, 17:57   #5
grizz
Senior Member
 
grizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: TX
Posts: 404
It was mag springs, not recoil springs. I don't know what I was thinking when I typed my response. Guess I need some more Crown.
grizz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2011, 18:05   #6
Roadkill_751
5 or 6 rounds?
 
Roadkill_751's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 1,003
!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBigBR View Post
The issue is actually a frame flex issue. The frame near the dustcover is designed to be able to flex as the gun functions. The all metal tactical lights, in some cases, inhibit this flex sufficiently to cause feeding problems. The official fix from Glock is new mag springs (11 coil) and followers, however this fix does not seem to actually fix every gun. I have not heard of a different recoil spring (other than the variety of springs for the 9mm Gen 4 guns), but would not rule it out. Glock is not always very vocal about these "upgrades."

To the best of my knowledge, only .40 caliber weapons are affected. The 9mm, .357, .45 ACP, 10mm, and .45 GAP versions should run fine with the metal tactical lights attached.

The most frustrating thing about the issue is how inconsistent it is. I have seen it a handful of times, but it is usually fixed with springs. For some time I carried a G23 with a Surefire X300 attached and +2 extensions on my magazines (13+2 in the gun and two 15+2 magazines on my belt. If any gun would have feeding problems, it would be mine, and yet it never happened.
DaBigBR nailed it on the head. The Glocks flex at the dustcover. Our agency had the same issue and it was determined that the TLR-1 and 2's were on the gun too tight. So we backed the set screw off of the light and changed the mag spring to 11 coil spring. This took care of the issue with the G-22.
__________________
"When there's lead in the air... there's hope in the heart." Jansen Jones, Team Noveske Shooting Team
Roadkill_751 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2011, 20:01   #7
mds1140
nobody
 
mds1140's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: W-WA
Posts: 166
The only stoppages I've ever had with my G21sf, was with a TLR2 attached. I determined that it was a magazine problem, the magazine was old. When I updated the mag spring, the problem went away.
mds1140 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2011, 08:43   #8
ChiefWPD
Senior Member
 
ChiefWPD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Wellfleet MA
Posts: 3,225
I had the same problem with my 23. Tried everything; 11 coil mag springs, #8 mag follower, some other stuff. No luck. Put in a .357 SIG barrel. Bingo. Works everytime. Need the light as my left arm is messed up and without a light on the pistol I wouldn't have any.

__________________
Chief WPD
ChiefWPD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2011, 08:54   #9
doneroman
SheepDogs-R-Us
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: The Infidel lair
Posts: 950
Frame flex is needed, which is reduced by some lights when attached.


Anybody have these issues with the Glock light attached?
doneroman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2011, 17:33   #10
BULLRUNN
Double Tap
 
BULLRUNN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Hampton Roads
Posts: 731
spend the extra cash and tell them to get the surefire... mine works FLAWLESSLY...
BULLRUNN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2011, 17:50   #11
Arvinator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 202
A couple of years ago, I carried a TLR-1 on my dept issue Glock 22 and had ne problems, but I saw several in our small dept. with jams often. Went to Det. and took the light off. 2 Months ago, went back to patrol and said forget the light. I carry a light on my person, and keep 2 in the car. No gun mounted lights for me. I see too many problems on Glocks
Arvinator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2011, 18:04   #12
txleapd
Hook 'Em Up
 
txleapd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: TX
Posts: 6,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by BULLRUNN View Post
spend the extra cash and tell them to get the surefire... mine works FLAWLESSLY...
It's a gun issue, not a brand of light issue.
__________________
1911 Club #75
Kahr Club #286
Lone Star Glockers #919


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity” Sigmund Freud
txleapd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2011, 22:22   #13
Chowser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cleveland, OHIO
Posts: 1,756
Hey Chief, the 11 coil spring was meant for the Glock 22 magazines. How old is your 23 and about how many rounds do you have through it. Glock recommends changing the gen3 recoil springs every 3000 or so rounds.

The compacts and subcompacts use the 9 coil spring in the magazines.

If you switched to .357 and it works, I am wondering if it is your recoil spring being older and not having enough oomph to go back forward while shooting the .40.

if you can get a spare recoil spring, try that first.
Chowser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2011, 04:48   #14
actionshooter10
CLM Number 19
Charter Lifetime Member
 
actionshooter10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,960
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcj128 View Post
A couple of years back, our department bought and supplied a group of TLR-2 lights that we put on our Glock 22 and 23's. We immediately had issues, with FTF in many guns. WE then re-did the springs and followers on all the mags, and recoil springs, etc. The problems seemed solved, except the Glock 23's never worked right with the light. At the time, we were working with the Winchester Ranger 180 gr JHT (NON-T-Series).

About a year later, we switched to a better round, the Federal HST 180 gr. Now we are seeing the jams again, generally it's during one-handed firing.

I personally bought a M-3 light from Insight Technologies, and never had an issue with either ammo. I wonder if the metal TLR-2 is so heavy it causes the issues, while the lighter M-3 does not. I don't know.

Can anyone out there share if their department had issues with the lights/pistol combo? If so, what did you do to fix it?

Thanks all.
This is a shooter issue. The gun is not being held firmly enough to let the slide cycle correctly. This is generally referred to as limpwristing and occurs without lights attached also.
__________________
"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States
actionshooter10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2011, 05:10   #15
txleapd
Hook 'Em Up
 
txleapd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: TX
Posts: 6,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by actionshooter10 View Post
This is a shooter issue. The gun is not being held firmly enough to let the slide cycle correctly. This is generally referred to as limpwristing and occurs without lights attached also.
Off Topic....

I understand your point, but I still consider it a gun issue. There are plenty of handgun designs that aren't prone to malfunctions from limp-wristing, or having lights attached.

....Back On Topic
__________________
1911 Club #75
Kahr Club #286
Lone Star Glockers #919


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity” Sigmund Freud
txleapd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2011, 08:53   #16
ChiefWPD
Senior Member
 
ChiefWPD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Wellfleet MA
Posts: 3,225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chowser View Post
Hey Chief, the 11 coil spring was meant for the Glock 22 magazines. How old is your 23 and about how many rounds do you have through it. Glock recommends changing the gen3 recoil springs every 3000 or so rounds.

The compacts and subcompacts use the 9 coil spring in the magazines.

If you switched to .357 and it works, I am wondering if it is your recoil spring being older and not having enough oomph to go back forward while shooting the .40.

if you can get a spare recoil spring, try that first.
Chowser:

The 11 coil mag spring and #8 follower mods were suggested to me by a very experienced Glock armorer, who called an even more experienced Glock guy in an attempt to deal with my light problem.

To further muddy the waters, when I put in the 357 SIG barrel I also put in a new recoil spring. Go figure.

__________________
Chief WPD
ChiefWPD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2011, 10:05   #17
DaBigBR
No Infidels!
 
DaBigBR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Circling the wagons.
Posts: 15,924
Quote:
Originally Posted by txleapd View Post
It's a gun issue, not a brand of light issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by txleapd View Post
Off Topic....

I understand your point, but I still consider it a gun issue. There are plenty of handgun designs that aren't prone to malfunctions from limp-wristing, or having lights attached.

....Back On Topic
I agree that it ultimately is a gun issue, however Glock has gone as far as to say that this is "not" an issue with plastic bodied lights, like the GTL and M3. I suspect the X200/X300 may perform a little better since the rails plastic, but I can't be sure.
__________________
"Logic is rarely the engine that propels a police department forward."

-David Simon in "Homicide"
DaBigBR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2011, 11:49   #18
Bill Lumberg
BTF Inventor
 
Bill Lumberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,194
We have hundreds of thousands of rounds across 30+ glocks (gen 3 22's and 23's), almost every round with an M3, M3X, or TLR-1. Zero issues. Period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcj128 View Post
A couple of years back, our department bought and supplied a group of TLR-2 lights that we put on our Glock 22 and 23's. We immediately had issues, with FTF in many guns. WE then re-did the springs and followers on all the mags, and recoil springs, etc. The problems seemed solved, except the Glock 23's never worked right with the light. At the time, we were working with the Winchester Ranger 180 gr JHT (NON-T-Series).

About a year later, we switched to a better round, the Federal HST 180 gr. Now we are seeing the jams again, generally it's during one-handed firing.

I personally bought a M-3 light from Insight Technologies, and never had an issue with either ammo. I wonder if the metal TLR-2 is so heavy it causes the issues, while the lighter M-3 does not. I don't know.

Can anyone out there share if their department had issues with the lights/pistol combo? If so, what did you do to fix it?

Thanks all.
__________________
Did someone talk to you about your TPS reports?
Bill Lumberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2011, 01:28   #19
Marlowe
Senior Member
 
Marlowe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 297
If you must have a Glock in a caliber begining with a 4 and fitted with a light, get a 21 or 21 SF.

I would not trust the 22 or 23 with a light attached.

Lots of folks have used the 22 or 23 with lights attached and have had no problems.

Unfortunately, lots of folks have had those problems.

To make matters worse, the problems tend to appear without warning, and even when the gun previously functioned reliably with a light mounted. So, even if your gun has worked reliably with a light before, there's no guarranty that won't change.

A Glock rep told me the difficulty was that the problems occurred with some guns, with some magazines, with some ammo, with some lights and with some shooters.

That's a lot of variables to try to account for!

I assume you want a light mounted to the gun to deal with life and death situations. If so, then reliability is your number one priority. Go to the 21 or 21SF. The .45 is not bad round, after all!

The Seattle PD SWAT Team had widespread problems with the Glock 22 with lights attached. Maddeningly, it happened even with guns that had previously worked reliably with the lights. Glock finally replaced the 22s with 21SFs at no charge. Problem solved.

If you have to stick with the 22 or 23, don't mount a light. Use a handheld light instead. Why gamble on a piece of equipment?

Sure, maybe you've never had a problem with your particular Glock 22 or 23, with your particular light and service ammo. Do you want to discover a problem for the first time in the middle of a fight for your life?

I don't think so.
__________________
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." President John F. Kennedy

Last edited by Marlowe; 05-21-2011 at 01:29..
Marlowe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2011, 04:27   #20
actionshooter10
CLM Number 19
Charter Lifetime Member
 
actionshooter10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,960
On Topic...

I carry a G17 w/X300. I've put several thousand rounds through it with no malfuctions.

I haven't heard of any issues with the the G22 or 23 with the X300.
__________________
"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States
actionshooter10 is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 16:18.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 990
288 Members
702 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31