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Old 05-16-2011, 15:32   #1
bcj128
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Glocks with Lights...your experience - Input Needed

A couple of years back, our department bought and supplied a group of TLR-2 lights that we put on our Glock 22 and 23's. We immediately had issues, with FTF in many guns. WE then re-did the springs and followers on all the mags, and recoil springs, etc. The problems seemed solved, except the Glock 23's never worked right with the light. At the time, we were working with the Winchester Ranger 180 gr JHT (NON-T-Series).

About a year later, we switched to a better round, the Federal HST 180 gr. Now we are seeing the jams again, generally it's during one-handed firing.

I personally bought a M-3 light from Insight Technologies, and never had an issue with either ammo. I wonder if the metal TLR-2 is so heavy it causes the issues, while the lighter M-3 does not. I don't know.

Can anyone out there share if their department had issues with the lights/pistol combo? If so, what did you do to fix it?

Thanks all.
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Old 05-16-2011, 15:45   #2
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This is a known issue with Gen 3 G22's andG23's. From what I understand, there is a different recoil spring assembly to address the issue (I'm not sure if you just replaced the old springs with identical ones or the different ones). The lights take some of the flex out of the frame, so you need different spring tension. Glock reportedly fixed that issue with the Gen4 guns. I also believe the increased rigidity in the frame exposes even more grip problems than usual.
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Old 05-16-2011, 15:54   #3
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What grizz said...

Also from what I've read, the problem strikes some G22's and not others. Not sure what the percentage difference is, but I think the problems are in the distinct minority. I keep an Insight Tech M3 on my G22, and have never had any problems...
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Old 05-16-2011, 16:05   #4
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The issue is actually a frame flex issue. The frame near the dustcover is designed to be able to flex as the gun functions. The all metal tactical lights, in some cases, inhibit this flex sufficiently to cause feeding problems. The official fix from Glock is new mag springs (11 coil) and followers, however this fix does not seem to actually fix every gun. I have not heard of a different recoil spring (other than the variety of springs for the 9mm Gen 4 guns), but would not rule it out. Glock is not always very vocal about these "upgrades."

To the best of my knowledge, only .40 caliber weapons are affected. The 9mm, .357, .45 ACP, 10mm, and .45 GAP versions should run fine with the metal tactical lights attached.

The most frustrating thing about the issue is how inconsistent it is. I have seen it a handful of times, but it is usually fixed with springs. For some time I carried a G23 with a Surefire X300 attached and +2 extensions on my magazines (13+2 in the gun and two 15+2 magazines on my belt. If any gun would have feeding problems, it would be mine, and yet it never happened.
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Old 05-16-2011, 17:57   #5
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It was mag springs, not recoil springs. I don't know what I was thinking when I typed my response. Guess I need some more Crown.
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Old 05-16-2011, 18:05   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBigBR View Post
The issue is actually a frame flex issue. The frame near the dustcover is designed to be able to flex as the gun functions. The all metal tactical lights, in some cases, inhibit this flex sufficiently to cause feeding problems. The official fix from Glock is new mag springs (11 coil) and followers, however this fix does not seem to actually fix every gun. I have not heard of a different recoil spring (other than the variety of springs for the 9mm Gen 4 guns), but would not rule it out. Glock is not always very vocal about these "upgrades."

To the best of my knowledge, only .40 caliber weapons are affected. The 9mm, .357, .45 ACP, 10mm, and .45 GAP versions should run fine with the metal tactical lights attached.

The most frustrating thing about the issue is how inconsistent it is. I have seen it a handful of times, but it is usually fixed with springs. For some time I carried a G23 with a Surefire X300 attached and +2 extensions on my magazines (13+2 in the gun and two 15+2 magazines on my belt. If any gun would have feeding problems, it would be mine, and yet it never happened.
DaBigBR nailed it on the head. The Glocks flex at the dustcover. Our agency had the same issue and it was determined that the TLR-1 and 2's were on the gun too tight. So we backed the set screw off of the light and changed the mag spring to 11 coil spring. This took care of the issue with the G-22.
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Old 05-16-2011, 20:01   #7
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The only stoppages I've ever had with my G21sf, was with a TLR2 attached. I determined that it was a magazine problem, the magazine was old. When I updated the mag spring, the problem went away.
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Old 05-17-2011, 08:43   #8
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I had the same problem with my 23. Tried everything; 11 coil mag springs, #8 mag follower, some other stuff. No luck. Put in a .357 SIG barrel. Bingo. Works everytime. Need the light as my left arm is messed up and without a light on the pistol I wouldn't have any.

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Old 05-17-2011, 08:54   #9
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Frame flex is needed, which is reduced by some lights when attached.


Anybody have these issues with the Glock light attached?
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Old 05-17-2011, 17:33   #10
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spend the extra cash and tell them to get the surefire... mine works FLAWLESSLY...
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Old 05-17-2011, 17:50   #11
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A couple of years ago, I carried a TLR-1 on my dept issue Glock 22 and had ne problems, but I saw several in our small dept. with jams often. Went to Det. and took the light off. 2 Months ago, went back to patrol and said forget the light. I carry a light on my person, and keep 2 in the car. No gun mounted lights for me. I see too many problems on Glocks
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Old 05-17-2011, 18:04   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BULLRUNN View Post
spend the extra cash and tell them to get the surefire... mine works FLAWLESSLY...
It's a gun issue, not a brand of light issue.
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Old 05-17-2011, 22:22   #13
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Hey Chief, the 11 coil spring was meant for the Glock 22 magazines. How old is your 23 and about how many rounds do you have through it. Glock recommends changing the gen3 recoil springs every 3000 or so rounds.

The compacts and subcompacts use the 9 coil spring in the magazines.

If you switched to .357 and it works, I am wondering if it is your recoil spring being older and not having enough oomph to go back forward while shooting the .40.

if you can get a spare recoil spring, try that first.
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Old 05-18-2011, 04:48   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcj128 View Post
A couple of years back, our department bought and supplied a group of TLR-2 lights that we put on our Glock 22 and 23's. We immediately had issues, with FTF in many guns. WE then re-did the springs and followers on all the mags, and recoil springs, etc. The problems seemed solved, except the Glock 23's never worked right with the light. At the time, we were working with the Winchester Ranger 180 gr JHT (NON-T-Series).

About a year later, we switched to a better round, the Federal HST 180 gr. Now we are seeing the jams again, generally it's during one-handed firing.

I personally bought a M-3 light from Insight Technologies, and never had an issue with either ammo. I wonder if the metal TLR-2 is so heavy it causes the issues, while the lighter M-3 does not. I don't know.

Can anyone out there share if their department had issues with the lights/pistol combo? If so, what did you do to fix it?

Thanks all.
This is a shooter issue. The gun is not being held firmly enough to let the slide cycle correctly. This is generally referred to as limpwristing and occurs without lights attached also.
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Old 05-18-2011, 05:10   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by actionshooter10 View Post
This is a shooter issue. The gun is not being held firmly enough to let the slide cycle correctly. This is generally referred to as limpwristing and occurs without lights attached also.
Off Topic....

I understand your point, but I still consider it a gun issue. There are plenty of handgun designs that aren't prone to malfunctions from limp-wristing, or having lights attached.

....Back On Topic
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Old 05-18-2011, 08:53   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chowser View Post
Hey Chief, the 11 coil spring was meant for the Glock 22 magazines. How old is your 23 and about how many rounds do you have through it. Glock recommends changing the gen3 recoil springs every 3000 or so rounds.

The compacts and subcompacts use the 9 coil spring in the magazines.

If you switched to .357 and it works, I am wondering if it is your recoil spring being older and not having enough oomph to go back forward while shooting the .40.

if you can get a spare recoil spring, try that first.
Chowser:

The 11 coil mag spring and #8 follower mods were suggested to me by a very experienced Glock armorer, who called an even more experienced Glock guy in an attempt to deal with my light problem.

To further muddy the waters, when I put in the 357 SIG barrel I also put in a new recoil spring. Go figure.

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Old 05-18-2011, 10:05   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txleapd View Post
It's a gun issue, not a brand of light issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by txleapd View Post
Off Topic....

I understand your point, but I still consider it a gun issue. There are plenty of handgun designs that aren't prone to malfunctions from limp-wristing, or having lights attached.

....Back On Topic
I agree that it ultimately is a gun issue, however Glock has gone as far as to say that this is "not" an issue with plastic bodied lights, like the GTL and M3. I suspect the X200/X300 may perform a little better since the rails plastic, but I can't be sure.
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:49   #18
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We have hundreds of thousands of rounds across 30+ glocks (gen 3 22's and 23's), almost every round with an M3, M3X, or TLR-1. Zero issues. Period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcj128 View Post
A couple of years back, our department bought and supplied a group of TLR-2 lights that we put on our Glock 22 and 23's. We immediately had issues, with FTF in many guns. WE then re-did the springs and followers on all the mags, and recoil springs, etc. The problems seemed solved, except the Glock 23's never worked right with the light. At the time, we were working with the Winchester Ranger 180 gr JHT (NON-T-Series).

About a year later, we switched to a better round, the Federal HST 180 gr. Now we are seeing the jams again, generally it's during one-handed firing.

I personally bought a M-3 light from Insight Technologies, and never had an issue with either ammo. I wonder if the metal TLR-2 is so heavy it causes the issues, while the lighter M-3 does not. I don't know.

Can anyone out there share if their department had issues with the lights/pistol combo? If so, what did you do to fix it?

Thanks all.
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Old 05-21-2011, 01:28   #19
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If you must have a Glock in a caliber begining with a 4 and fitted with a light, get a 21 or 21 SF.

I would not trust the 22 or 23 with a light attached.

Lots of folks have used the 22 or 23 with lights attached and have had no problems.

Unfortunately, lots of folks have had those problems.

To make matters worse, the problems tend to appear without warning, and even when the gun previously functioned reliably with a light mounted. So, even if your gun has worked reliably with a light before, there's no guarranty that won't change.

A Glock rep told me the difficulty was that the problems occurred with some guns, with some magazines, with some ammo, with some lights and with some shooters.

That's a lot of variables to try to account for!

I assume you want a light mounted to the gun to deal with life and death situations. If so, then reliability is your number one priority. Go to the 21 or 21SF. The .45 is not bad round, after all!

The Seattle PD SWAT Team had widespread problems with the Glock 22 with lights attached. Maddeningly, it happened even with guns that had previously worked reliably with the lights. Glock finally replaced the 22s with 21SFs at no charge. Problem solved.

If you have to stick with the 22 or 23, don't mount a light. Use a handheld light instead. Why gamble on a piece of equipment?

Sure, maybe you've never had a problem with your particular Glock 22 or 23, with your particular light and service ammo. Do you want to discover a problem for the first time in the middle of a fight for your life?

I don't think so.
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Old 05-21-2011, 04:27   #20
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On Topic...

I carry a G17 w/X300. I've put several thousand rounds through it with no malfuctions.

I haven't heard of any issues with the the G22 or 23 with the X300.
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Old 05-21-2011, 05:36   #21
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X300's will solve the problem. The TLR attachment method is the problem and they have been unable to remedy it.
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Old 05-21-2011, 12:03   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
If you must have a Glock in a caliber begining with a 4 and fitted with a light, get a 21 or 21 SF.

I would not trust the 22 or 23 with a light attached.

Lots of folks have used the 22 or 23 with lights attached and have had no problems.

Unfortunately, lots of folks have had those problems.

To make matters worse, the problems tend to appear without warning, and even when the gun previously functioned reliably with a light mounted. So, even if your gun has worked reliably with a light before, there's no guarranty that won't change.

A Glock rep told me the difficulty was that the problems occurred with some guns, with some magazines, with some ammo, with some lights and with some shooters.

That's a lot of variables to try to account for!

I assume you want a light mounted to the gun to deal with life and death situations. If so, then reliability is your number one priority. Go to the 21 or 21SF. The .45 is not bad round, after all!

The Seattle PD SWAT Team had widespread problems with the Glock 22 with lights attached. Maddeningly, it happened even with guns that had previously worked reliably with the lights. Glock finally replaced the 22s with 21SFs at no charge. Problem solved.

If you have to stick with the 22 or 23, don't mount a light. Use a handheld light instead. Why gamble on a piece of equipment?

Sure, maybe you've never had a problem with your particular Glock 22 or 23, with your particular light and service ammo. Do you want to discover a problem for the first time in the middle of a fight for your life?

I don't think so.
Many law enforcement officers do not have any say in the matter. They are required to carry what the department says they carry in the manner that they say to carry it.
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Old 05-22-2011, 12:06   #23
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Many law enforcement officers do not have any say in the matter. They are required to carry what the department says they carry in the manner that they say to carry it.
Very true. That's why I suggested discontinuing use of the weapon mounted light with the Glock 22 or 23, if transition to another Glock model, such as the 21 or 21SF was not an option.

I'm not aware of any agencies that mandate use of the weapon mounted light...but some agencies may now do so. If someone is mandated to use the Glock 22 or 23 with a light mounted, and they are having malfunctions, and there are no alternatives...no other models of pistol or light or ammo...then it is an issue the agencies' firearms unit needs to take up with their administration to make a change.
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Old 05-23-2011, 22:34   #24
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[QUOTE;17377430] X300's will solve the problem.[/QUOTE]

I've been wondering. I just phoned my old partner and neither of us remember any problems when we ran 9/10 X200's out of about 25 G22/23's. Limited data sure, but range twice monthly, 35 to 50 rounds for each official part of range, for about five years. FWIW, and I'm definitely open for all info.
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Old 05-23-2011, 23:19   #25
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I think this is one of the most profound things I've read on GlockTalk!







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