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Old 08-21-2014, 08:03   #1
Goldsmithy
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How do you define an 'aggresive' move?

The title say it all. I am not a LEO, but I want to avoid any trouble by making a movement that would result in a LEO taking action. For example, I have a CCW. I know that I should identify myself as a CCW holder if I have a weapon with me immediately. I know to keep my hands visible at all times. However, if I reach for my wallet, would this be considered an 'aggressive' move?

In these times of having many idiots having weapons without licensing or training, I can understand the apprehension a LEO faces whenever he stops someone for an offense---even a simple traffic stop.

And to all LEO's...thank you for your service in keeping my butt safe.
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Old 08-21-2014, 08:14   #2
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Body language is difficult to put into words, at least for me. Maybe the other guys here can do a better job answering your question. For me you get a feeling when dealing with subjects. Plenty of times I had someone comply with all my commands but knew it was going to break bad. You see it in their eyes and the way they move. Like I said hard to describe. Guys on the job will understand what I mean.
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Old 08-21-2014, 08:36   #3
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Slow is better than fast, if you're not wanting to excite people. I presume you're talking about something like a traffic stop where you need to retrieve your license and registration and you don't want the cop to think you're going for your gun.

The easiest thing to do is just tell the officer you're carrying when you're asked for your license and registration. I know some people have a hangup about it being none of the government's business. In my experience, working in flyover country, the police are pro- CCDW for the most part. If you tell me you've got a CCDW permit, then that tells me that you've never been convicted of a Felony, domestic violence, or been committed to a mental hospital. It's not a total endorsement that you're a good guy, and I'm never going to totally let my guard down, no offense, but it's about as close an endorsement as I can expect when dealing with a stranger.

Yes, there can be goofballs in the ranks of LEO, particularly young and inexperienced officers, who then ask you to do stupid and inconvenient stuff like surrender your firearm. The vast, vast majority of the time, that's not going to happen.

Ohio is borderline, "purple state" kind of place. Rural areas are like Kentucky, where I work. Firearms ownership and possession is no big deal and the cops you meet there are almost guaranteed not to care if you're armed. But then you've got the big cities, like Columbus, Cincy, and Cleveland.

I personally would still disclose in those urban centers. My experience, on both sides as the officer making the stop and as the driver being stopped, is that disclosure works in the driver's favor. Being cooperative and showing courtesy and concern for my well- being by telling me that you're armed when you don't have to goes a long way towards getting you a warning instead of a ticket.
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Old 08-21-2014, 08:59   #4
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Long ago I was stopped in River Rouge, Detroit for rolling through a stop sign. When I reached back for my wallet both Detroit officers drew down on me. I then moved V E R Y S L O W L Y. Things chilled and they let me off with a warning.


Occasionally I ride with some retired big city motor officers. They have all been in gunfights. At a traffic stop one of them took a bullet in the abdominal area a mere 6 weeks after he had been assigned to motors. He spent another 25 years on motors afterwards.

One old time copper told me that if the suspect made a fist he considered it an aggressive move and would give the suspect a wood shampoo.

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Old 08-21-2014, 09:15   #5
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Dukeboy...in Ohio you *must* disclose as soon as the officer approaches if you are carrying either on your person or elsewhere in the car, such as the glovebox. You should tell where the gun is and ask the officer what he/she would like you to do. Then, do it.

Even if you are not carrying, it might be a good idea to disclose your CCW status as a show of cooperation. That's what I would do. BTW, they will know if you are a CCW permit holder when they run your plates, but you must still announce if you are carrying. Don't even think about going near the gun.

I usually carry in the glovebox, so I keep my documents in a visor holder so there is no need to go near the glovebox. I would have my DL already in hand as soon as I pulled over, so no need to go for my wallet after the officer has approached.

I had one stop while carrying several years ago and acted as described above. I was courteous and cooperative. The cop was courteous and professional and I was on my way shortly, with my citation.
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Old 08-21-2014, 09:23   #6
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An agressive move is one which a person of training and experience would interpret as being consistent with an impending assault, or with achieving a position from which such an assault could be more easily launched.

Examples include target stares, forming fists, weight shifts, (the infamous) blading and facial pallor. Others depend on context, such as reaching towards the waistband or pockets. Others involve the entire body, such as circling, distracting or crowding my reactionary space.
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Old 08-21-2014, 09:54   #7
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If you get pulled over, just tell the officer you are carrying and that your wallet is in your back pocket. Wait for him/her to tell you to get it.

Sam, there's also the weapon pat and the "heat check."


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Old 08-21-2014, 11:23   #8
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Kind of depends on "How" you reach for a wallet...If its a quick jerky movement while uttering "I've got something for you MF'er...."

It may not go well.

If he asks for your DL and you say "Its in my right rear pocket...can I get that for you Officer?"

It will likely play out alot better.

Seriously, roll windows down...interior light on at night...Stereo turned down...Off the cell phone call you were on...hands resting on the steering wheel..."Hello Officer (trooper, Deputy) I've got my concealed carry permit and I'm carrying my weapon on my right rear hip, what would you like me to do?"

Thats pretty much what I do. I've been pulled over 2 times in the last 10 years or so. (Tailight out and headlight) The only thing different is.... "I'm an off duty Police Officer, what would you like me to do"
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:08   #9
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...I'll add:
  • Not listening to directions

This may not be the type of "move" you broached the topic with, but it's a flag, and depending on context/circumstances, can be a pretty big one.
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 08-21-2014, 13:35   #10
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Old 08-21-2014, 14:51   #11
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Some of the obvious signs of have already been mentioned.

Bottom line for private citizens? Listen carefully to LE instructions during contacts, and don't make any sudden furtive movements that may catch them by surprise. Trying to be "helpful" at the wrong moment (such as in a way that involves reaching for something out of the cop's sight you anticipate may being asked for), or just acting contrary to instructions or commands, usually isn't a good idea.

This subject has benefited from continuing research and cops can find some good training to improve and refine their ability to detect non-verbal physical signs of potential (and impending) danger in subjects.

I've listened to one of the 1-day Detecting Danger seminars offered by Dr Steven A. Rhoads, and it was well worth my time. http://www.detectingdanger.com/home.html

Even after close to 30 years in police work (at that time) I was able to pick up some new indicator behaviors and make better sense of them in combination with other behaviors.

It also helped me better understand some behaviors and non-physical signs that I'd already known and used for many years, and allowed me to better understand why and how they were indicators under some circumstances, and how to better articulate them in both reports and testimony.

When you consider that some experts believe that at least 95% of our daily "communication" is non-verbal, it's really helpful to take the time to learn and better understand how expressions, facial expressions, balance, posture, etc can intertwine to unconsciously communicate our intentions when interacting with each other, especially under potentially confrontational or adversarial conditions.

Unfortunately, training such as that offered by Dr Rhoads is restricted to LE-only (for obvious reasons), but this subject is receiving increasingly more attention, so it's not like some of the research can't be found with some diligent searching.
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Old 08-21-2014, 16:37   #12
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I'm surprised at all the bad advice given by cops.

First, it's important to be aggressive in defending your rights. You don't have to tell no damn cop you've got a gun, much less that it's legal, or refrain from any behavior that might give him pause. His nerves are not your problem.

The best way to start the contact is to yell out "Am I being detained?" in a commanding voice. You have to take control of the interaction or the cop will think he's in charge and will further violate your rights. And don't forget, you pay his salary and it's important to make that point, too. Your local mayor or other public official will be happy to verify that you're important and don't deserve the abuse that some lowly cop wants to dish out, and you need to make that known as soon as possible. Put the cop in his place promptly to minimize your inconvenience.

If the cop gets pissy about the whole deal, just walk away from him, even if he threatens to TASER you. He's probably bluffing (except maybe in rural Utah). Just because he has legal power, a gun, a TASER, OC and maybe other implements of destruction, along with a ticket book, doesn't mean you have to submit to his b.s. Stand your ground.
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Old 08-21-2014, 19:07   #13
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As a CO, I carry on a CCW permit. I'll share one story that I have told here before:

One day, while I was making a 10-200 related beeline for the house, as I entered the center lane to make a left turn onto a side road to head for the house, a hotdog female copper in a Charger turned on me HARD, and had me lit up before she even straightened up in my direction. Let's just say, I was in a bad way, and the timing was not good. I pulled on to the side road while rolling down the window, came smoothly to a stop, and when she approached I had one hand on the steering wheel and the other arm/hand on the driver's door sill, both palms exposed. In a polite, pleasant tone of voice I said, "Hello. I have a CCW permit and a weapon in the console, and I want to comply". She said, "I'm not worried about all that. You turned into that center lane awfully early to be making a left turn". Apparently she thought I intended to pass in the center lane, which I did not. I just shook my head and almost pleaded with her. I said, "Well Ma'am, I'm sure you've heard this a thousand times before, but I LIVE down here, and I've gotta (uh, relieve myself)". She did a quick about face, headed back to her car and said, "Do whatcha gotta do, man".

Non-aggressive body language, polite dialogue, and the declaration of a desire to comply would seem to go a long way toward a peaceful and hopefully positive resolution.
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Old 08-21-2014, 20:01   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgraywolf View Post
I'm surprised at all the bad advice given by cops.

First, it's important to be aggressive in defending your rights. You don't have to tell no damn cop you've got a gun, much less that it's legal, or refrain from any behavior that might give him pause. His nerves are not your problem.

The best way to start the contact is to yell out "Am I being detained?" in a commanding voice. You have to take control of the interaction or the cop will think he's in charge and will further violate your rights. And don't forget, you pay his salary and it's important to make that point, too. Your local mayor or other public official will be happy to verify that you're important and don't deserve the abuse that some lowly cop wants to dish out, and you need to make that known as soon as possible. Put the cop in his place promptly to minimize your inconvenience.

If the cop gets pissy about the whole deal, just walk away from him, even if he threatens to TASER you. He's probably bluffing (except maybe in rural Utah). Just because he has legal power, a gun, a TASER, OC and maybe other implements of destruction, along with a ticket book, doesn't mean you have to submit to his b.s. Stand your ground.

You forgot to inform him that as a minimum wage government employee he should be out catching real criminals, not wasting your time. They like a firm hand.
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Old 08-21-2014, 20:09   #15
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Cop Talk

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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 08-21-2014, 20:56   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgraywolf View Post
I'm surprised at all the bad advice given by cops.

First, it's important to be aggressive in defending your rights. You don't have to tell no damn cop you've got a gun, much less that it's legal, or refrain from any behavior that might give him pause. His nerves are not your problem.

The best way to start the contact is to yell out "Am I being detained?" in a commanding voice. You have to take control of the interaction or the cop will think he's in charge and will further violate your rights. And don't forget, you pay his salary and it's important to make that point, too. Your local mayor or other public official will be happy to verify that you're important and don't deserve the abuse that some lowly cop wants to dish out, and you need to make that known as soon as possible. Put the cop in his place promptly to minimize your inconvenience.

If the cop gets pissy about the whole deal, just walk away from him, even if he threatens to TASER you. He's probably bluffing (except maybe in rural Utah). Just because he has legal power, a gun, a TASER, OC and maybe other implements of destruction, along with a ticket book, doesn't mean you have to submit to his b.s. Stand your ground.
Thanks for all the replies, I will follow the advice of MOST of all of you. And to "old"gray wolf...How did you get so old?
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Old 08-22-2014, 04:42   #17
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Originally Posted by Goldsmithy View Post
Thanks for all the replies, I will follow the advice of MOST of all of you. And to "old"gray wolf...How did you get so old?
It hasn't been easy. If you're gonna be dumb, you've gotta be tough.

Seriously, I've been stopped about a half dozen times in over 50 years of driving, every time for speeding, half the time on a motorcycle. I'm totally polite, hands on the wheel or handlebars, inform I'm armed and where it's at, tell the officer where whatever documents he wants are located, ask if it's ok to reach for them, the whole schmear. Use your brain and realize that the officer doesn't know who you are or what your intentions are. I've never been cited.
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Old 08-22-2014, 05:26   #18
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Don't worry too much about making aggressive moves. The cops know one when they see oliy, and they will let you know!

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Old 08-22-2014, 06:29   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
An agressive move is one which a person of training and experience would interpret as being consistent with an impending assault, or with achieving a position from which such an assault could be more easily launched.

Examples include target stares, forming fists, weight shifts, (the infamous) blading and facial pallor. Others depend on context, such as reaching towards the waistband or pockets. Others involve the entire body, such as circling, distracting or crowding my reactionary space.
All of this.

If what the OP is worried about is being asked for ID while carrying a gun, that's an easy fix.

"Officer, my ID is in my wallet which is in my back left pocket. However, I have a CCW and my weapon is located at the (whatever) position on my belt." And then slowly retrieve your wallet.

The police make a lot of good people nervous. They're used to it. If you're anxious about the encounter, there's really nothing wrong with, "I'm sorry officer - I'm just a little nervous right now."

99% of coppers are going to distinguish a nervous good-guy from a nervous bad-guy. It's just...................different.
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