[DerekMK23]

Originally Posted by BBJones;

Oh and HK416 is not an AR as most people would describe it. Piston smiston a answer to a problem that doesn't exist. I know there are advocates for them but I think they don't make sense. If you want a piston gun, design the gun around it; don't adapt a DI gun into a piston. Another can of worms just opened

How about watching the HK416 vs Colt stress test, then tell me it fixes imaginary problems. Also to say that a piston ar isn't a "ar" is ignorant the HK416 is an ar platform good enough to be called an "ar"

[STI]

1911 why did I say that about my Colt? Well the Rock River just plain shoots very well, its much more accurate than my colt, the fit of the Colt is no where what the RR is, I do not shoot the Colt as well and my friends dont either, both run 100% with any ammo, the feel of the RR is better,tighter,no rattle,upper and lowers mate much better than the Colt. Just my feelings, my RR is carried daily 7 days a week, just today shot 1 coyote and 2 other predators, to me its 100% reliable. Money was not much of an object when I got it and would do the same again, the RR just shoots, I clean it 1 time a week, never any kind of problem. Also the Colt trigger is horrible compared to the RR. This is my opinion only for my use, also I had a FN M4 for 4 yrs before retirement and my RR will out shoot it ......

[Alaskapopo]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

That's not quite true. Piston rifles (be they ARs or other platforms) have definite advantages over DI systems, especially in keeping the operating system clean and cool. With the recent advancements in piston ARs (including the HK416), many shooters that are sick and tired of the ammount of cleaning required by a DI AR will be taking long, hard looks at them.

Sure, a DI AR can run fine dirty and wet, but having an AR platform that stays cleaner and cooler is a big plus for some. Believe the obvious, if there wasn't a market demand for piston ARs, there wouldn't be growing numbers of options out there.

You don't have to clean an Ar nearly as often as you seem to think. The only time cleaner and cooler is a major plus is for use with suppressors. For most shooters they are better off with a DI gun that costs less, weighs less, has less parts to break and is generally more durable and more accurate. Sorry but not drinking the piston Kool aid.

Pat

[vrex]

My two favorite brands that can be had in your local shop are Armalite and Stag. The Stag build quality is just incredible, I think where they save the money though is the 4140 barrel steel and rifle feed ramps. Armalite has all the features you would want (mil barrel steel, m4 ramps) and the mid length platform that they developed is inn my opinion the best way to do the 16" platform.

[DerekMK23]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

You don't have to clean an Ar nearly as often as you seem to think. The only time cleaner and cooler is a major plus is for use with suppressors. For most shooters they are better off with a DI gun that costs less, weighs less, has less parts to break and is generally more durable and more accurate. Sorry but not drinking the piston Kool aid.

Pat

No one is asking you to drink piston kool aid just admit to the facts I have shot both quite a bit and yes the piston is extremely cleaner than di with or without a supressor and a lot of these brands of di that are being named are the same if not more money than what a piston costs so I think I will continue to drink my PWS piston Kool aid 2,000 rounds of 5.56 and still going strong another 500 and maybe I'll clean it. And where does accuracy play into it I think you sir need to do a little more research before you generalize all pistons into the same category because they aren't

[K. Foster]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

The only time cleaner and cooler is a major plus is for use with suppressors. For most shooters they are better off with a DI gun that costs less, weighs less, has less parts to break and is generally more durable and more accurate.

Agree.

[DerekMK23]

And to beat a dead horse govt testing of the hk 416 has proven these statements
*70% less fouling and cleaning time (< 4 minutes for an HK416, > 12 for an M4)
An almost total lack of carbon fouling is present within the weapon during even extended operation. 95% of all carbon fouling, debris and heat leaves the muzzle of the HK416 upon firing.
*Little or no heat transfer to the bolt parts which results in 3-4 times increased service parts life and little to no requirement to reapply lubricant
*Ability to fire the weapon w/o lubricant. A lack of lubricant attracts less sand and grit in harsh environments thus improving reliability.
*Weapon operation not effected by the presence of water in the gas system
*User removable without tools
*Same gas system components and gas port location for all barrel lengths

[BBJones]

Originally Posted by DerekMK23

How about watching the HK416 vs Colt stress test, then tell me it fixes imaginary problems. Also to say that a piston ar isn't a "ar" is ignorant the HK416 is an ar platform good enough to be called an "ar"

Then I am ignorant. What I meant is that most people when they think of an AR don't think of a piston gun. People who are talking about piston AR's usually qualify it by adding that they are talking about a piston variety.

Originally Posted by DerekMK23

No one is asking you to drink piston kool aid just admit to the facts I have shot both quite a bit and yes the piston is extremely cleaner than di with or without a supressor and a lot of these brands of di that are being named are the same if not more money than what a piston costs so I think I will continue to drink my PWS piston Kool aid 2,000 rounds of 5.56 and still going strong another 500 and maybe I'll clean it. And where does accuracy play into it I think you sir need to do a little more research before you generalize all pistons into the same category because they aren't

How much does an HK416 cost? Under 1k?

My point is not that piston are totally worthless POS's but that they aren't an improvement IMO.

[glock031]

Originally Posted by Jack Black

No, it was taken down because it's being updated.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and BET it went down because of legal reasons.

[BBJones]

Originally Posted by DerekMK23

And to beat a dead horse govt testing of the hk 416 has proven these statements
*70% less fouling and cleaning time (< 4 minutes for an HK416, > 12 for an M4)
An almost total lack of carbon fouling is present within the weapon during even extended operation. 95% of all carbon fouling, debris and heat leaves the muzzle of the HK416 upon firing.
*Little or no heat transfer to the bolt parts which results in 3-4 times increased service parts life and little to no requirement to reapply lubricant
*Ability to fire the weapon w/o lubricant. A lack of lubricant attracts less sand and grit in harsh environments thus improving reliability.
*Weapon operation not effected by the presence of water in the gas system
*User removable without tools
*Same gas system components and gas port location for all barrel lengths

Awesome enjoy your HK416.

[BBJones]

Originally Posted by glock031

I'm going to go out on a limb here and BET it went down because of legal reasons.

I bet not. Only way he would be liable is if anything he put in it was untrue and caused damage to a business.

[Jack Black]

Originally Posted by glock031

I'm going to go out on a limb here and BET it went down because of legal reasons.

What in the world are you talking about?

[Alaskapopo]

Originally Posted by DerekMK23

No one is asking you to drink piston kool aid just admit to the facts I have shot both quite a bit and yes the piston is extremely cleaner than di with or without a supressor and a lot of these brands of di that are being named are the same if not more money than what a piston costs so I think I will continue to drink my PWS piston Kool aid 2,000 rounds of 5.56 and still going strong another 500 and maybe I'll clean it. And where does accuracy play into it I think you sir need to do a little more research before you generalize all pistons into the same category because they aren't

One of my best friends has a LWRC. Not a bad gun but I don't see it as being worth the extra money. In fact after I let him shoot my Noveske at the last three gun match he wants one now.
Pat

[Durden]

Originally Posted by bullittmcqueen

Try again. Read the document in its place now. Rob may not put the chart back up at all.

If rob s. doesn't put the chart back up, all hell will break loose.

I'll have people challenging me on why their Hesse is the equal of my KAC, and there won't be a damn thing I'll be able to offer in the form of absolute proof as a rebuttal.

Damnit!

[12131]

Excellent, another meaningless pissing match thread.

[jbremount]

Originally Posted by STI

1911 why did I say that about my Colt? Well the Rock River just plain shoots very well, its much more accurate than my colt, the fit of the Colt is no where what the RR is, I do not shoot the Colt as well and my friends dont either, both run 100% with any ammo, the feel of the RR is better,tighter,no rattle,upper and lowers mate much better than the Colt. Just my feelings, my RR is carried daily 7 days a week, just today shot 1 coyote and 2 other predators, to me its 100% reliable. Money was not much of an object when I got it and would do the same again, the RR just shoots, I clean it 1 time a week, never any kind of problem. Also the Colt trigger is horrible compared to the RR. This is my opinion only for my use, also I had a FN M4 for 4 yrs before retirement and my RR will out shoot it ......

Rock River uses the Wlyde chambers, which (AFAIK) are more accurate withr most civilian shooter selection of ammo. A RR with a wlyde chamber and stainless steel barrel is designed to be more accurate than a standard Colt. I remember when 4-6" groups at 100 yards was acceptable in the Army with the old Colts we had. The military has different priories. For example, the mess hall did not look like Luby's either, but could move to the field and feed hundreds.

[jbremount]

Stag is a good rifle for the average civilian shooter. They are my favorite brand.

[STI]

The barrel/chamber on my RR is marked 5.56, also stated on the manuel and case it came in.

[Captains1911]

Originally Posted by jbremount

Rock River uses the Wlyde chambers, which (AFAIK) are more accurate withr most civilian shooter selection of ammo. A RR with a wlyde chamber and stainless steel barrel is designed to be more accurate than a standard Colt. I remember when 4-6" groups at 100 yards was acceptable in the Army with the old Colts we had. The military has different priories. For example, the mess hall did not look like Luby's either, but could move to the field and feed hundreds.

I had a 20" RRA with a Wylde chamber which is advertised by RRA as being capable of handling both .223 and 5.56. Unfortunately for me that was not the case. The gun would constantly blow primers with all sorts of 5.56 ammo. I had to ream the chamber in order for it to cycle 5.56 reliably.

[K. Foster]

Originally Posted by Durden

If rob s. doesn't put the chart back up, all hell will break loose.

I'll have people challenging me on why their Hesse is the equal of my KAC, and there won't be a damn thing I'll be able to offer in the form of absolute proof as a rebuttal.

Damnit!

I don’t know why people get so bent out of shape over the chart. Nothing in there is classified or particularly hard to get. Inspect the guns you have access to for the obvious stuff and call or email the companies and ask if they high pressure test or what barrel steel they use. Many companies are starting to list that stuff on their own. Every time I’ve contacted a gun manufacturer, I’ve always gotten the info I needed. It’s not rocket science.

[bullittmcqueen]

Originally Posted by K. Foster

I don’t know why people get so bent out of shape over the chart. Nothing in there is classified or particularly hard to get. Inspect the guns you have access to for the obvious stuff and call or email the companies and ask if they high pressure test or what barrel steel they use. Many companies are starting to list that stuff on their own. Every time I’ve contacted a gun manufacturer, I’ve always gotten the info I needed. It’s not rocket science.

Exactly. That was my point when I said "people don't know how to interpret the chart". Your average AR buyer has no idea what the information contained in the chart means; no idea what TDP, MPI/HPT means. All they see is a left side and a right side and names going across the top. The informative article that Rob has compiled explaining all these things is actually better in my humble opinion as it allows buyers to learn what the terminology and technology mean and as you said, contact companies and make their own informed decisions.

If someone looks at the left side of the chart and picks a random name and goes and buys a rifle, they've completely missed the point.

[d90king]

Colt
LMT
BCM
Noveske
Daniel Defense
KAC
LaRue
LWRCI
HK

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

You don't have to clean an Ar nearly as often as you seem to think. The only time cleaner and cooler is a major plus is for use with suppressors. For most shooters they are better off with a DI gun that costs less, weighs less, has less parts to break and is generally more durable and more accurate. Sorry but not drinking the piston Kool aid.

Pat

That's the great thing about opinions, everyone has them. You can like your DI ARs, but the market is moving in a different direction. From piston ARs like the H&K416s, LWRC, STAG, S&W, to SCARs, to ACRs, to XCRs, and so on and so on, the rifle world is changing. Cool and clean is better, no matter what a rifle's use, and weight means nothing to the average civilian shooter.

Of course the SEALs and Rangers and AFCCs are stupid in their rifle choices. Those poor, ignorant souls. They're probably having to rebuild their rifles every few weeks or so, with parts always breaking and stuff.

[DerekMK23]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

That's the great thing about opinions, everyone has them. You can like your DI ARs, but the market is moving in a different direction. From piston ARs like the H&K416s, LWRC, STAG, S&W, to SCARs, to ACRs, to XCRs, and so on and so on, the rifle world is changing. Cool and clean is better, no matter what a rifle's use, and weight means nothing to the average civilian shooter.

Of course the SEALs and Rangers and AFCCs are stupid in their rifle choices. Those poor, ignorant souls. They're probably having to rebuild their rifles every few weeks or so, with parts always breaking and stuff.

LMAO,

[flynshoot]

DD
Colt
BCM
Noveske