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Old 05-30-2011, 12:53   #76
wprebeck
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Originally Posted by SAR View Post
If you tell him to do anything, he's acting as your agent. Citizens do not fall under unlawful searches and seizure. A private citizen acting on his own cannot violate search and seizure. A citizen acting as your agent can.
I see where you where going.


I would tell the guy to do his job. If he needs to open the bag to do it, then fine. If not, oh well. Is this bag inside or outside if the residence, and would using K9 be appropriate?
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Old 05-30-2011, 12:56   #77
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My intent in providing this example was not to get an answer, but rather to show the OP that law enforcement is all about the "gray zone." Good, seasoned cops walk the line well. Anyone can work in the black and white.
SAR, you know I personally became convinced of that about life in general a long, long time ago...
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Old 05-30-2011, 12:57   #78
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I'll give you a real example. A gang officer sees a known gang member standing on a street corner. Upon seeing the gang officer, the gang member takes a step back stoops behind a car and then comes back to the curb. The officer decides to stop and talk to the gang member. The officer also goes over to the car and finds a loaded 9mm Glock on the ground next to the car. The officer never saw the gang member with the gun. The officer never saw the gang member drop the gun. The gang member said he didn't know the gun was there, that he was just stretching his legs.

So now what?
Take the glock have it printed ...
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Old 05-30-2011, 12:58   #79
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He gets to look, then. If its illegal contraband, she goes to jail. Not seeing the gray area, because:

You are in a place you have a legal right to be (were sent there, so that's obvious)

The assessor has the legal right to inventory items. Should those items be inventoried in front of you, in plain view, well....where's the gray area?


That's like our local agency using probation officers or our home incarceration officers Tonga in access to a house. Nothing illegal about it, just using the tools set out by the courts. A condition of home incarceration is that you must allow our officers to enter at anytime. Failure to do so gets your ass brought back to jail....sometimes with your door kicked in. LMPD likes to get into houses for one reason or another, so they work with our HIP folks, nothing gray or shady - all aboveboard and legal.
Yes, the court appointed repossessor absolutely had a legal right to look. And after he looks and says, "oh officer, there appear to be drugs in here" the LEO would have to arrest her. No question.

The gray area is, do you cut the repossessor off at the pass, and say something like "well, she's getting evicted from her home today. That's enough trouble for one day."

Technically, that would be corruption.
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Old 05-30-2011, 12:59   #80
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He's looking to you (LEO) for direction. What do you say or do?
Nothing. For all you know, she may have a box of Tampons in the bag and at this point, "discovery" by the suspicious repossessor would be tainted anyway.
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Old 05-30-2011, 13:01   #81
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Just a note in passing. I am very happy that my original thought this would be a poor subject for a thread turns out to have been quite wrong. Thanks for all the excellent commentary and, at least to me, thought provoking examples!
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Old 05-30-2011, 13:06   #82
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My intent in providing this example was not to get an answer, but rather to show the OP that law enforcement is all about the "gray zone." Good, seasoned cops walk the line well. Anyone can work in the black and white.
I understand the Gray more than you may think. I am however, not talking about issues involving civies. This is only related to allowing officers to continue to murder innocent people and plant weapons to justify it and the such, as one poster said he was witness to in his "short career" in LE. That is what this thread is about. IF what he says really happened (I doubt it), where would you classify him? WHY would someone give up his job to allow it to continue without so much as filing a complaint.
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Old 05-30-2011, 13:10   #83
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Originally Posted by USAFE7;
IF what he says really happened (I doubt it), where would you classify him?
As an accomplice after the fact.
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Old 05-30-2011, 13:34   #84
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Yes, the court appointed repossessor absolutely had a legal right to look. And after he looks and says, "oh officer, there appear to be drugs in here" the LEO would have to arrest her. No question.

The gray area is, do you cut the repossessor off at the pass, and say something like "well, she's getting evicted from her home today. That's enough trouble for one day."

Technically, that would be corruption.
That would be laziness.

One of our guys spent 30 minutes talking a lady out of a report that would have taken 20 minutes to write.
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Old 05-30-2011, 13:59   #85
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Bad cops? http://reason.com/blog/2011/05/25/wo...iance-have-sav
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Old 05-30-2011, 14:08   #86
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Dunno, might be. But one thing I've learned is that trusting the press is stupid. Trusting the press whose sole source is the allegations in a criminal case against someone is really stupid. Since this blogger managed to include quotes in the allegations in a civil suit, by the ACLU....yeah, I'll wait for things to shake out a bit more.


Oh, I forgot: Even if everything alleged is precisely true, with nary a hint of exaggeration....do you think the criminal case against the two was made without any input from other cops?
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Old 05-30-2011, 14:11   #87
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Dunno, might be. But one thing I've learned is that trusting the press is stupid. Trusting the press whose sole source is the allegations in a criminal case against someone is really stupid. Since this blogger managed to include quotes in the allegations in a civil suit, by the ACLU....yeah, I'll wait for things to shake out a bit more.


Oh, I forgot: Even if everything alleged is precisely true, with nary a hint of exaggeration....do you think the criminal case against the two was made without any input from other cops?
Good call and no....which was my point. If something was going to get covered up...I would think this would be it.
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Old 05-30-2011, 14:30   #88
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Originally Posted by USAFE7 View Post
I understand the Gray more than you may think. I am however, not talking about issues involving civies. This is only related to allowing officers to continue to murder innocent people and plant weapons to justify it and the such, as one poster said he was witness to in his "short career" in LE. That is what this thread is about. IF what he says really happened (I doubt it), where would you classify him? WHY would someone give up his job to allow it to continue without so much as filing a complaint.
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I guess I'm not following you then. You're asking police officers to make split second decisions and to make interpretations of the law that the highest court in the land often takes YEARS to grapple with. In reading the article, I am getting the version of a story as printed by a newspaper. In the real world, nothing is cut and dry, and that would be the case even in this story. I was not there. I do not know what was going through the minds of the officers, and that's what were getting at, mens rea.
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Old 05-30-2011, 14:39   #89
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Just be clean cops and don't break the law. Geez....
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Old 05-30-2011, 14:46   #90
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I guess I'm not following you then. You're asking police officers to make split second decisions and to make interpretations of the law that the highest court in the land often takes YEARS to grapple with. In reading the article, I am getting the version of a story as printed by a newspaper. In the real world, nothing is cut and dry, and that would be the case even in this story. I was not there. I do not know what was going through the minds of the officers, and that's what were getting at, mens rea.

SAR...I guess I'm trying to cover every angle he might respond from. He is of mostly negative comments and bases them off of his LE career...months not years. So in posting that link and asking that simple question, I was able to get a good answer without leading, allowing someone to post their thoughts and not a "canned" one. The thread the comments were made in was deleted but there are a few that saw them. I want to bring all his BS into bright light to either have him admit it was a lie OR admit he is as dirty as the ones he witnessed.
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Old 05-30-2011, 14:59   #91
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SAR,

Ill help out, as you seemed to have missed the poster in question. Tacho gunworks aleged that he was a reserve in LA for some agency for around three years. During that time, he allegedly saw officer commit murders, throw down drop guns, plant dope, etc.

So, the OP is questioning that in here, in a public way...basically calling out the ****** that is tacho gunwirks. And hopefully, we can help his business along, by showing all the police type down his way how he really feels about cops. Dragoon figured out his company, and who he is.
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Old 05-30-2011, 15:00   #92
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That would be laziness.

One of our guys spent 30 minutes talking a lady out of a report that would have taken 20 minutes to write.
Laziness? Corruption? I'll be first to admit its easy to become lazy, take shortcuts, and end up charged with failure to take police action or corruption.

The gray areas are problematic and judgement calls can be very bad for one's career.
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Old 05-30-2011, 15:05   #93
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SAR,

Ill help out, as you seemed to have missed the poster in question. Tacho gunworks aleged that he was a reserve in LA for some agency for around three years. During that time, he allegedly saw officer commit murders, throw down drop guns, plant dope, etc.

So, the OP is questioning that in here, in a public way...basically calling out the ****** that is tacho gunwirks. And hopefully, we can help his business along, by showing all the police type down his way how he really feels about cops. Dragoon figured out his company, and who he is.
If he saw these things, I would ask that he cite the specific cases, because it would be easy to prove him right, especially if the officers were fired/indicted. If he saw these things and kept his mouth shut, he is nothing more than an accomplice. If he wants to set the record straight, let him name names.
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Old 05-30-2011, 15:37   #94
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If he saw these things, I would ask that he cite the specific cases, because it would be easy to prove him right, especially if the officers were fired/indicted. If he saw these things and kept his mouth shut, he is nothing more than an accomplice. If he wants to set the record straight, let him name names.
He says that while he has plenty of time to make the accusation he doesn't have the time or inclination to prove them.
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Old 05-30-2011, 15:44   #95
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He says that while he has plenty of time to make the accusation he doesn't have the time or inclination to prove them.
So basically he is full of ****e!
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Old 05-30-2011, 15:49   #96
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So basically he is full of ****e!
Yeah and since he is located in Texas I am guessing he probably picked LA because he thought LAPD was large enough that no one could prove or disprove he was not a reservist there.
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Old 05-30-2011, 15:54   #97
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Yeah and since he is located in Texas I am guessing he probably picked LA because he thought LAPD was large enough that no one could prove or disprove he was not a reservist there.
Going thru his previous posts, he says a lot of things. He's heavily involved in the TEA party, seemingly on the national level. He's a physicist who works in the auto industry, again very "inside". He also has a very poor attitude towards folks, and somehow thinks a G26 is a sissy gun....even though im betting he wouldn't volunteer to be a target holder for someone shooting one.


He seems to be a general.d-bag....
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Old 05-30-2011, 15:58   #98
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Going thru his previous posts, he says a lot of things. He's heavily involved in the TEA party, seemingly on the national level. He's a physicist who works in the auto industry, again very "inside". He also has a very poor attitude towards folks, and somehow thinks a G26 is a sissy gun....even though im betting he wouldn't volunteer to be a target holder for someone shooting one.


He seems to be a general.d-bag....
And he claims his Los Angeles Experience was many years ago, quite a lot of accomplishments for someone who pic looks like late twenties earlier thirties tops.
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Old 05-30-2011, 16:17   #99
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And he claims his Los Angeles Experience was many years ago, quite a lot of accomplishments for someone who pic looks like late twenties earlier thirties tops.
Well, perhaps he was a reserve or maybe he wasn't. One of the biggest problems we have locally in this vein are the perceptions of our brother law enforcement officers who have very little experience. I am referring to police officers with less than five years on the job, and yes, reserves who work one weekend a month.

I cannot tell you the number of times, a veteran officer was "ratted out" by his boot, only to find out it was the rookie's own misconceptions about law enforcement that skewed the facts in his mind. What a rookie sees as egregious law enforcement behavior is not necessarily that. How many actual shootings was the "supposed" reserve in during his time in LA? I am here to tell you that one who has never experienced one has very little knowledge of protocol himself.

Let me tell you one actual example. A few years ago, in the aftermath of an officer involved shooting with hits, one of the officers grabbed the suspects gun for safekeeping. Nothing wrong with that. Along comes another officer, who starts freaking out and says, "oh man, you just screwed up the OIS scene!!!!!" So the officer puts the gun back where he found it on the ground. A witness sees the first officer putting the gun on the ground. There was no ill intent of either officer, but both officers had less than five years on the job and had no evil intent whatsoever. Yet, you can imagine the controversy that resulted. The correct thing would have been officer number one retaining the weapon and then explaining to investigators that he removed it for safety reasons. To remove the gun, then put it back just smacked of planting a weapon in the eyes of all involved. Gray area? YOU BET.
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Old 05-30-2011, 16:17   #100
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Nothing. For all you know, she may have a box of Tampons in the bag and at this point, "discovery" by the suspicious repossessor would be tainted anyway.
In your last response to me, you posted that you were going to bury me so deep on your "ignore" list that you would never see my posts again. So what happened? Couldn't keep away from my sweetness, could you?


Anyway, a LEO doing nothing is the worst of all possibilities. Especially if there is a crowd watching.

A LEO needs to be guided by the old Libyian saying: "Make a decision. It may be a good decision. It may be a bad decision. But make a decision."
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