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Old 06-01-2011, 19:58   #1
J-DUBYA
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1911 Questions

I'm putting together my list of future investments and need to know a little about 1911s. I've shot a couple and love the way they operate. 1911s and Sigs fit my hand like a glove, one of these are going to be my main defensive handgun in the future. Anyway, I had some questions about certain 1911 features:

-What is the advantage of Series 70 type of guns versus non-series 70?

-Is there a performance difference between solid, full-length guide rods in comparison to the traditional bushing recoil system?

-Internal vs. External Extractors--opinions?

I've looked a lot of this up on youtube, I'm just really interested in hearing your opinions. I trust the people here on Glocktalk to give good, honest info and feedback.

By the way, the guns I have been looking at are the Kimber TLE II, Springfield Range Officer, Ruger SR 1911, and S&W TFP.
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Old 06-01-2011, 20:07   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-DUBYA View Post
I'm putting together my list of future investments and need to know a little about 1911s. I've shot a couple and love the way they operate. 1911s and Sigs fit my hand like a glove, one of these are going to be my main defensive handgun in the future. Anyway, I had some questions about certain 1911 features:

-What is the advantage of Series 70 type of guns versus non-series 70?

-Is there a performance difference between solid, full-length guide rods in comparison to the traditional bushing recoil system?

-Internal vs. External Extractors--opinions?

I've looked a lot of this up on youtube, I'm just really interested in hearing your opinions. I trust the people here on Glocktalk to give good, honest info and feedback.

By the way, the guns I have been looking at are the Kimber TLE II, Springfield Range Officer, Ruger SR 1911, and S&W TFP.
The Series 70 has an advantage of a cleaner trigger pull, easier field strip, and less to fail.

There is no performance difference between the guide rods, though the extra weight from a full length can help some people shoot better.

Internal extractors have a cleaner look, but both perform equally when both are done correctly. I have no problem with external extractors.






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Last edited by bac1023; 06-01-2011 at 20:08..
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Old 06-01-2011, 21:25   #3
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BAC summed it up nicely.
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Old 06-01-2011, 21:31   #4
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Originally Posted by J-DUBYA View Post
I'm putting together my list of future investments and need to know a little about 1911s. I've shot a couple and love the way they operate. 1911s and Sigs fit my hand like a glove, one of these are going to be my main defensive handgun in the future. Anyway, I had some questions about certain 1911 features:

-What is the advantage of Series 70 type of guns versus non-series 70?

-Is there a performance difference between solid, full-length guide rods in comparison to the traditional bushing recoil system?

-Internal vs. External Extractors--opinions?

I've looked a lot of this up on youtube, I'm just really interested in hearing your opinions. I trust the people here on Glocktalk to give good, honest info and feedback.

By the way, the guns I have been looking at are the Kimber TLE II, Springfield Range Officer, Ruger SR 1911, and S&W TFP.
Series 70 only applies to Colt Government models that are marked that way. In the original models, Colt introduced a "collet" style barrel bushing that was intended to provide a tight barrel to bushing fit without needing hand-fitting. It wasn't terribly popular. I believe the recent Series 70s have a solid bushing.

The Series 80 was also a Colt "innovation" where they added a firing pin block to the slide and a pair of levers that pushed that block up and clear of the firing pin as the trigger was pulled. The intent was to prevent the pistol from firing due to being dropped squarely on the muzzle. During such an, unlikely, instance the steel firing pin could develop enough inertia to move forward and strike the primer of a chambered round.

Wayne Novak's method of preventing that was to use a firing pin made from lighter material, along with a heavier firing pin return spring. With such a solution, no mechanical firing pin blocks are needed. Springfield Armory has been using that design for years.

Kimber has a Series II that offered firing pin block as well, though it is activated by the grip safety instead of the trigger.

Other 1911 makers have used versions of both systems.

No practical advantage to the FLGRs IMO, and they do complicate dis-assembly for me.

External extactors can be built to function correctly, but on a 1911 they look like crap, to me. Since the internal functions just as well, what's the point?
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Old 06-01-2011, 22:20   #5
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Good answers so far

Of the guns listed I would go with the Kimber TLE II. I think it is one of the better sub $1000 1911 values around But both S&W and Springfield build nice 1911s, not sure about Ruger but I hear alot of good things so far.
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Old 06-02-2011, 00:00   #6
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Good answers so far

Of the guns listed I would go with the Kimber TLE II. I think it is one of the better sub $1000 1911 values around But both S&W and Springfield build nice 1911s, not sure about Ruger but I hear alot of good things so far.
I agree on the Kimber TLE guns, they are among the few Kimber offers that actually justify their increased cost (over the standard models).
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Old 06-02-2011, 00:12   #7
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Series 70 only applies to Colt Government models that are marked that way. In the original models, Colt introduced a "collet" style barrel bushing that was intended to provide a tight barrel to bushing fit without needing hand-fitting. It wasn't terribly popular. I believe the recent Series 70s have a solid bushing.

The Series 80 was also a Colt "innovation" where they added a firing pin block to the slide and a pair of levers that pushed that block up and clear of the firing pin as the trigger was pulled. The intent was to prevent the pistol from firing due to being dropped squarely on the muzzle. During such an, unlikely, instance the steel firing pin could develop enough inertia to move forward and strike the primer of a chambered round.

Wayne Novak's method of preventing that was to use a firing pin made from lighter material, along with a heavier firing pin return spring. With such a solution, no mechanical firing pin blocks are needed. Springfield Armory has been using that design for years.

Kimber has a Series II that offered firing pin block as well, though it is activated by the grip safety instead of the trigger.

Other 1911 makers have used versions of both systems.

No practical advantage to the FLGRs IMO, and they do complicate dis-assembly for me.

External extactors can be built to function correctly, but on a 1911 they look like crap, to me. Since the internal functions just as well, what's the point?
the collet bushing actually works. if it doesn't break. after i sold my kimber, it's now my most accurate 1911. i think it was a good idea, just not possible from a longevity standpoint. the series 70 i sent to colt was fitted with the solid bushing. oth, i bet there's thousands that's had the crap shot out of them with the original fingered bushing intact. and the external extractors are ugly. although one of the most beautiful semi-autos in the world has one. bhp.
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:11   #8
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... and the external extractors are ugly. although one of the most beautiful semi-autos in the world has one. bhp.
But the P35 didn't start out with an external, that "upgrade" came much later.
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Old 06-02-2011, 05:56   #9
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Originally Posted by J-DUBYA View Post
-What is the advantage of Series 70 type of guns versus non-series 70?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMG View Post
Series 70 only applies to Colt Government models that are marked that way. In the original models, Colt introduced a "collet" style barrel bushing that was intended to provide a tight barrel to bushing fit without needing hand-fitting. It wasn't terribly popular. I believe the recent Series 70s have a solid bushing.
Yes, this is an accurate description of a Series 70. Unfortunately, many people (incorrectly) refer to 1911s without firing pin safeties as Series 70s and those with firing pin safeties as Series 80s. Like the 7 and 8 round "clips", this will probably be a misused nomenclature for some time.

Since none of the guns the OP is looking at is a Colt, I am assuming this is the definition he is using.

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No practical advantage to the FLGRs IMO, and they do complicate dis-assembly for me.
A simple one piece guide rod field strips pretty much the same way as a plug, so I'm not sure what the difference is. If you use a take down pin (and have the corresponding hole), I think it is actually simpler.

My opinion on the firing pin safeties, while I certainly prefer to not have one, I have less of a problem with the trigger activated ones (Colt, Sig), than the grip safety activation (S&W, Kimber). When I go my Smith 1911, I was able to grip in in such a way that the trigger would be free but the firing pin block was still in place. This resulted in a click when trying to fire it. This was a brand new gun, btw. The new enhance series Smiths come without such nonsense, and I wish they were making them when I got mine.
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Old 06-02-2011, 08:47   #10
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If you have the two piece GI guide rod, you can field strip without any tools
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:13   #11
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definitely no full length guide rod- they complicate stripping and more importantly limit your ability to clear malfunctions- with a really tight jam, you can strike the bottom half of the slide- basically punching the guide rod area of the muzzle against a post or something to clear- won't work with a flgr.
I have not had any issues with any of my series 80 style guns with the firing pin safety but many people dislike them. it is just one more thing to go wrong.
There have been issues with some people with kimbers swartz style firing pin safety activated by the grip safety- not to mention Kimbers well deserved reputation for spotty quality control.
I much prefer an American made 1911 and of all those that exist I like Colt by far. Except for kimber and some boutique makers(the semi customs and STI) most all other 1911's are foreign made at least to a degree. I am NOT saying SA's are bad guns (there actually pretty good) but are still a foreign 1911. I can't stomach America's favorite pistol being stamped made in Brazil
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Old 06-02-2011, 16:03   #12
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[QUOTE=BuckyP;17435638]Yes, this is an accurate description of a Series 70. Unfortunately, many people (incorrectly) refer to 1911s without firing pin safeties as Series 70s and those with firing pin safeties as Series 80s. Like the 7 and 8 round "clips", this will probably be a misused nomenclature for some time.

Since none of the guns the OP is looking at is a Colt, I am assuming this is the definition he is using.
QUOTE]

Guilty, I read a review of the Ruger in which it was described as a "Series 70" style in regards to this safety feature. I just wasn't sure how big of a deal this setup really was. Also, I meant to ask about Colts. Are the new ones really worth the money? Is spending $1,000 dollars on a new Colt the same as spending a $1,000 on a Kimber or Springfield? Also, I think I would probably prefer the plunger style bushing if it is indeed easier to strip. I have only owned Glocks and a Walther PPS, so I am not very savvy in regards to dissassembling and maintaining other types of handguns.

Also, I meant to explain why I was looking at the guns I listed. I want my 1911 setup to include:
-an extended single-side thumb safety
-beaver tail grip safety
-longer trigger than a mil-spec
-checkering on the front strap and mainspring area isn't na must, but would be a big plus.

The guns I listed have either all of these features or are one short, which I can live with. I believe the Kimber has all of these, but I am not sure if it has the plunger style bushing.
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Old 06-02-2011, 16:56   #13
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If you have the two piece GI guide rod, you can field strip without any tools
The GI guide rod is not two piece.
There is a recoil spring guide and a plug, if that is what you are calling "two piece."
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Old 06-02-2011, 17:27   #14
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Also, I think I would probably prefer the plunger style bushing if it is indeed easier to strip.
No one has explained to me how the one piece is any harder than the GI style. Push in plug, turn bushing, release spring and plug, slide stop, strip...
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Old 06-02-2011, 18:02   #15
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Maybe I mis-spoke by saying plunger-style. I like the recoil system of the Springfield mil-spec type guns. The GI style that BuckyP spoke of is what I had in mind.
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Old 06-02-2011, 20:27   #16
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No one has explained to me how the one piece is any harder than the GI style. Push in plug, turn bushing, release spring and plug, slide stop, strip...
FOR ME, turning the bushing on FLGR means using a bushing wrench. Using just my fingers, I cannot find enough purchase on the rim of the FLGR plug to depress it far enough to turn the bushing.

With the GI guide rod/plug, a bushing wrench is un-necessary for me, as I can easily push the plug in using the broad center.
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Old 06-03-2011, 05:45   #17
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FOR ME, turning the bushing on FLGR means using a bushing wrench. Using just my fingers, I cannot find enough purchase on the rim of the FLGR plug to depress it far enough to turn the bushing.

With the GI guide rod/plug, a bushing wrench is un-necessary for me, as I can easily push the plug in using the broad center.
OK, I'll buy that. The FLGR plug can bite a bit when using bare hands.
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