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Old 06-08-2011, 21:15   #1
rfb45colt
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WI "compromise" CC bill to be announced 6/9/11

https://www.facebook.com/notes/vicki...50212623123150

This will be announced tomorrow at a WI legislature's joint committee meeting scheduled for 12 noon, according to Darren LaSorte of the NRA, the NRA lobbyist who's been working to get CC in WI since 2001. It details a "compromise" CC bill that will have bi-partisan support and will easily pass the legislature. The votes just are not there for permitless "constitutionnal" carry at this time, but there's plenty of support for this. There's also a 30 minute podcast available that has many more answers to some questions.

Some details are:

there will be permits required with same background check with WI DOJ as required to buy handgun ($13)

must be WI resident and 21 or older (no non-res permits issued)

there will be training required, but just like in FL. No specific course or time-length required. Prior training is good, hunter safety is good, ex military is good, LE training is good... any "certified" firearm safety training will suffice.

NO effect on open carry, but to carry in 1,000' school zone, permit is required, either OC or CC, per federal law (WI cannot change fed law).

OC in vehicle WITHOUT permit (handguns only... laws remain the same for long guns) but permit is still required in 1,000' school zones.

No fingerprints.

Permit cost about $50 for 5 years (less upon renewal).

Database of permit holders available to LE ONLY, NO public access.

nothing on reciprocity mentioned here, but current shall-issue bill has reciprocity provisions, I assume they'll stay the same, which was WI will accept permit from any State (both res or non-res permits) that requires background check, except that will likely now require a minimum training standard also, just like WI residents must have.

Current bill also states WI residents must have WI permit.

Current bill also does not require photo on permit, but just like MN, permit must be accompanied by another "official" ID with a photo, like a DL, to be valid.

I assume the above items in current shall-issue bill will go unchanged because they were not specifically mentioned in "compromise". We'll know for sure tomorrow.

For those who dont know... there are currently two proposed CC bills in WI. SB93 is a constitutional carry bill with optional permits. SB90/AB126 is a shall issue bill similar to what's above. Personally I don't see were there's a "compromise". The votes just are not there for SB93, and the only thing the Dem opponants are "giving" is some support for SB90/AB126... which isn't really needed as the Repubs can do what they want... they control Senate, Assembly, and Governor. But enough Repubs won't touch "no-permits" for it to be short of the majority needed.
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Old 06-09-2011, 07:43   #2
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Given there is no shall-issue concealed carry in WI right now, looks like a success story from here.
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Old 06-09-2011, 07:56   #3
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Personally I'd like to see both pass. Constitutional Carry for those who don't go near 1000' of a school and the Permit Carry as stated for both within school boundaries and reciprocal carry.
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Old 06-09-2011, 07:57   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfb45colt View Post
must be WI resident and 21 or older (no non-res permits issued)
That's going to be one of the first things to change or push to change.
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Old 06-09-2011, 08:06   #5
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This what I kinda suspected would happen... You ask for everything you want, then negotiate down to what you're willing to accept.

Great news, sounds like it's finally gonna happen in WI... The training requirement for reciprocity kinda sucks (it'll obviously rule out a few states)... but.. those are simple things that can be adjusted as time goes on.

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The fire is no longer my major concern since I am leaving immediately on an unexpected road trip to Indianapolis. Watch the national news over the next couple of days, I'll wave... well, only if I'm cuffed in the front.
RIP Jack
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Old 06-09-2011, 08:47   #6
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Found this on OpenCarry.org (A lot of them are freaking out cuz this is not a constitutional carry bill)... many of them even saying they will sign a recall petition on Walker in January (which would be 100% counterproductive)

http://www.wiba.com/cc-common/podcas...2006-08-11.mp3

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Originally Posted by GioaJack View Post
The fire is no longer my major concern since I am leaving immediately on an unexpected road trip to Indianapolis. Watch the national news over the next couple of days, I'll wave... well, only if I'm cuffed in the front.
RIP Jack
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Old 06-09-2011, 09:39   #7
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My wife and step-daughter are from Wisconsin, so I'm glad to hear this. It's kind of sad that it took ten years to get that far, but better late than never.
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Old 06-09-2011, 15:45   #8
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It's great that this is on track. There's no reason to try to recall Walker over this, the lefty's are enough trouble as it is. What did Doyle ever do? There are a few vocal minorities complaining that if we can't jump right to constitutional carry it isn't good enough. I'll take this any day.

Another bennie is you should be able to walk out of the store with your new gun once you have a permit. The permit will be your background check. Other than CC, WI has pretty favorable gun laws.
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Old 06-09-2011, 16:55   #9
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Figures the largest training organization in the US is pushing a training law. The NRA pulled the same stunt here in Georgia. Somebody should demand the NRA prove training does anything, besides helping their cash flow.

The simple provable fact is that training has NO impact on safety or lawful use of a gun. Its a tax on self defense.

A reason for WI to oppose training is that it will affect reciprocity. Here's how it works. WI will only reciprocate with states that have similar requirements. That means WI won't honor a GA license. Since GA is a mutual reciprocity state (you respect ours we'll respect yours), WI won't have reciprocity with GA and a bunch other states without training.
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Old 06-09-2011, 17:18   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike from philly View Post
Figures the largest training organization in the US is pushing a training law. The NRA pulled the same stunt here in Georgia. Somebody should demand the NRA prove training does anything, besides helping their cash flow.

The simple provable fact is that training has NO impact on safety or lawful use of a gun. Its a tax on self defense.

A reason for WI to oppose training is that it will affect reciprocity. Here's how it works. WI will only reciprocate with states that have similar requirements. That means WI won't honor a GA license. Since GA is a mutual reciprocity state (you respect ours we'll respect yours), WI won't have reciprocity with GA and a bunch other states without training.
My understanding is... The Lack of training in the first bill (constitutional carry, optional permits) was a big problem that a lot of Dems had, and they just didn't have the votes for that.. so they had to make some compromises.

This should pass easily.
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The fire is no longer my major concern since I am leaving immediately on an unexpected road trip to Indianapolis. Watch the national news over the next couple of days, I'll wave... well, only if I'm cuffed in the front.
RIP Jack
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Old 06-09-2011, 17:25   #11
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Meh. Check out the thread on the guy shooting himself while playing with his *unholstered* pocket carry.

I've seen some real dumbasses with firearms, and it really doesn't bother me to have an NRA certified training class. Why NRA? Better that than HCI.

Another perspective is that for the 95% that don't actually carry, "no training required" is hard to swallow sometimes, like when someone shoots himself and injures a kid in line at a restaurant. The backlash from something like that can do a lot of harm.
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Old 06-09-2011, 17:27   #12
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I see training both ways. No way should you be required to go thru "training" to carry a firearm and protect yourself. However, if the state issues you a permit, the least they can do is explain the rules/laws to you. Otherwise, I can see where someone can say the state is giving you a permit but not making sure you know. I don't like it but I guess they need it if they are going to be accepted by a lot of other anal states. I like that apparently WI will accept all other permits. Congrats, WI!
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Old 06-09-2011, 17:27   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RottnJP View Post
Meh. Check out the thread on the guy shooting himself while playing with his *unholstered* pocket carry.

I've seen some real dumbasses with firearms, and it really doesn't bother me to have an NRA certified training class. Why NRA? Better that than HCI.

Another perspective is that for the 95% that don't actually carry, "no training required" is hard to swallow sometimes, like when someone shoots himself and injures a kid in line at a restaurant. The backlash from something like that can do a lot of harm.
EXACTLY!

I hate that training is required, but sometimes we are our own worst enemy, and thats why this sort of thing has become the norm.
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The fire is no longer my major concern since I am leaving immediately on an unexpected road trip to Indianapolis. Watch the national news over the next couple of days, I'll wave... well, only if I'm cuffed in the front.
RIP Jack
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Old 06-09-2011, 21:59   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike from philly View Post
Figures the largest training organization in the US is pushing a training law. The NRA pulled the same stunt here in Georgia. Somebody should demand the NRA prove training does anything, besides helping their cash flow.

The simple provable fact is that training has NO impact on safety or lawful use of a gun. Its a tax on self defense.

A reason for WI to oppose training is that it will affect reciprocity. Here's how it works. WI will only reciprocate with states that have similar requirements. That means WI won't honor a GA license. Since GA is a mutual reciprocity state (you respect ours we'll respect yours), WI won't have reciprocity with GA and a bunch other states without training.
NRA was NOT pushing for a permit law with training until it came down to that or nothing. I'll take the permit/traing bill rather than nothing. There simply were not enough votes in the legislature to pass constitutional carry. We got hurt on that front real bad last week, when two "conservative" radio talk show hosts went on a tirade about no permits, and no training, They caused a big backlash amongst even the Repubs. We lost the majority due to a guy with a microphone who was supposed to be on our side.

It became clear without some training there'd be no CC. It was the NRA's guy who brought in the FL model for training and they used that. If I'm not mistaken, FL & GA have reciprocity. I have a FL permit, and the FL website lists GA as a state I can carry in. The WI training is lifted almost word for word from the FL law.... BUT, the bill does NOT say that only permits from states that have similar training will be honored. It says as long as your issuing state requires a background check, your permit is honored here.

It also states that for purposes of the federal gun free school zone law, an out-of-state licensee is considered to be licensed by WI for purposes of the GFSZ law. The fed GFSZ law does not allow out-of-state permittees to carry in GFSZ in states that do not "license" them. This bill makes your GA license just as good as a WI license in WI GFSZ. Who else does that?

Here's a link to the description of the amendment to the bill.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/2011-...09_SB93_LC.pdf

edit to add: Time became a critical factor too. The legislature has been tied up with the budget battle and union protests, etc, that made national news. They break for the summer in a few weeks. Don't come back til September. Recall elections on 9 Senators (6 repubs, 3 dems) are in July. IF the Dems win 6 out of 9, they retake the Senate. If they retake the Senate, we likely get no CC, or THEY write the bill. This needs to be done and signed by June 30th or we might not have anything. Senate votes Tuesday, I wouldn't be surprised if Assembly votes Wednesday, Thursday at the latest edit: heard on the news the Assembly starts work on the budget bill on Tuesday, so it might be a few days more before they get this passed. On to Gov who has pen in hand waiting.... and FINALLY, we're #49.
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Old 06-09-2011, 22:05   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfb45colt View Post
BUT, the bill does NOT say that only permits from states that have similar training will be honored. It says as long as your issuing state requires a background check, your permit is honored here.
Hmm, I must have misunderstood the NRA guy on the radio this morning discussing this... He said that in order for an out of state permit to be recognized, they would have to have similar training requirements to WI's...

I hope thats not the case, my IN permit is good in FL.. so if what you're saying is correct, it should be good in WI also.
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The fire is no longer my major concern since I am leaving immediately on an unexpected road trip to Indianapolis. Watch the national news over the next couple of days, I'll wave... well, only if I'm cuffed in the front.
RIP Jack
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Old 06-09-2011, 22:17   #16
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Quote:
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Hmm, I must have misunderstood the NRA guy on the radio this morning discussing this... He said that in order for an out of state permit to be recognized, they would have to have similar training requirements to WI's...

I hope thats not the case, my IN permit is good in FL.. so if what you're saying is correct, it should be good in WI also.
Go to the link in my previous post, scroll down to page 4, and read Out-of-State Licensees section. If you had a background search to get your permit, you're good. I see no training restrictions for reciprocity.

You'll also like the third paragraph of that section.
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Old 06-09-2011, 22:41   #17
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rfb45colt, I remember you posting in the Doyle days on PPA. And Sherman.

Great to see a very clean bill come up for vote Tue. Here's to hoping no more amendments get tacked on to make it more restrictive.
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Old 06-09-2011, 23:52   #18
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Under the current proposed amendments it looks like reciprocity would be based only on background checks.



Quote:
The substitute amendment requires DOJ to promulgate, by rule, a list of states that issue a permit, license, approval, or other authorization to carry a concealed weapon if the permit, license, approval, or other authorization requires, or designates that the holder chose to submit to, a background
search that is comparable to the background check required to obtain a license in Wisconsin.
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:08   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfb45colt View Post
Go to the link in my previous post, scroll down to page 4, and read Out-of-State Licensees section. If you had a background search to get your permit, you're good. I see no training restrictions for reciprocity.

You'll also like the third paragraph of that section.


I just read through all that, and assuming that the final bill looks like that, that is a very doable bill. They are even knocking out Media Access and being allowed to keep a firearm in your vehicle at your workplace, all in one shot.

Again, assuming that bill shows everything that is going to be in the bill, I just cannot see how people can be upset with that.

Also, one thing that the "memo" is not really clear on, is if a sign is proper notification.

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The fire is no longer my major concern since I am leaving immediately on an unexpected road trip to Indianapolis. Watch the national news over the next couple of days, I'll wave... well, only if I'm cuffed in the front.
RIP Jack

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Old 06-10-2011, 06:20   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike from philly View Post
The simple provable fact is that training has NO impact on safety or lawful use of a gun. Its a tax on self defense.
Please provide proof.
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Old 06-10-2011, 07:16   #21
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Please provide proof.
Very simple (not turning this into a bashing thread)... Look at the number of ND's that happen among LE every year.

If that's not proof enough, I don't know what is.
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The fire is no longer my major concern since I am leaving immediately on an unexpected road trip to Indianapolis. Watch the national news over the next couple of days, I'll wave... well, only if I'm cuffed in the front.
RIP Jack
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Old 06-10-2011, 07:59   #22
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rfb45colt, I remember you posting in the Doyle days on PPA. And Sherman.

Great to see a very clean bill come up for vote Tue. Here's to hoping no more amendments get tacked on to make it more restrictive.
I remember you too. Deja Vu, eh? Here we are again in the same old fight... but we're gonna win this one!

I see at least one amendment coming, and I don't think it's a bad idea, I think it was an oversight that one of the Dems picked up on at the committee meeting (only thing they said I can agree with).

The bill requires courts to "directly and promptly" notify DOJ of all restraining orders put on permit holders. Permits are then suspended until order is lifted. Also requires courts to directly notify DOJ of all felony convictions, so permits can be revoked. But does not require courts to directly notify DOJ of misdemeanor domestic battery convictions, which would revoke permits also, if for no other reason, permittee cannot now possess a firearm under federal law. It was assumed that a domestic battery would also include a R.O., but it was pointed out that it's not "automatic", and a RO would only lead to suspension, not revocation.

I'm betting that language is changed to require courts to directly notify DOJ of any and all convictions that'd negate permit eligibility. I'd agree. It's a redundant type of situation, as a permittee with a federal disqualifier couldn't legally possess a firearm he/she was licensed to carry, but it should be in the bill anyway. All it takes is one to slip though the cracks and cause trouble, and the bill looks flawed. It can happen anyway, but the court or DOJ shoulders the blame, not the cc law.

edit: Another thing left out that I'd like to see amended in, is fed law allows permittees to be exempt from NICS. But the state must put it in their laws as well. I'd like to see that added, along with waiver of 48hr waiting period on handgun purchases. Brady law required waiting periods until NICS went into effect. No longer required, and should be removed, at the very least, for cc permittees.
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Old 06-10-2011, 08:04   #23
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And, assuming it does not get amended, we get bar/tavern/restaurant carry as long as you aren't drinking yourself! And there's employer parking lot car storage too!

That's a big deal, considering how many states many people automatically assume are more pro RKBA than WI have fought repeatedly (and often failed) to get bar/tavern/restaurant carry and the employer parking lots too.

I quote Otto Von Bismarck. "Politics is the art of the possible."

WI going straight to Constitutional Carry would have been a RKBA feather in our cap with nationwide repercussions, however, this is as about a clean and simple and easy shall-issue carry bill as you're going to see.

And as it was, the Constitutional Carry bill had lots of problems, such as leaving us "stranded" like Vermonters with no optional permits for reciprocity in other states, so this bill would have to have passed as well, or things would get confusing. Lots of other questions about posting no carry etc. as well.

My one gripe right now is the signage rules. only 5x7" and I believe there's no color requirements, font size, or specific verbiage. (I'll have to see the actual bill, rather than the comittee memo though)

It needed to be bigger than 8.5x11" (no VPC/Brady spam fax signs) and blaze orange.

At least the sign must be posted at EVERY entrance, and it's only a minor civil forfeiture for refusing to obey one. Not even a misdemeanor...

I hear lots of Texans simply go into malls via the door they forgot to post.
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Old 06-10-2011, 08:20   #24
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WI going straight to Constitutional Carry would have been a RKBA feather in our cap with nationwide repercussions, however, this is as about a clean and simple and easy shall-issue carry bill as you're going to see.
Spot on. Much better than those Doyle days bills, IMO.

But look for the Dems to offer tons of amendments before the final vote that'd add more "restricted" areas. That seemed to be their big gripe yesterday. They want churches, daycares, public parks, playgrounds, sporting events, concerts, all to be no-carry areas. At least they didn't mention within 100' of a school bus.... yet.
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Old 06-10-2011, 08:35   #25
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This is great news.

This is just another stepping stone to gaining back all the gun rights we have lost over the last 50 years.

After getting a CCW permit with training and background check passes, you can begin work on CC legislation.

Congratulations WI!
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