Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-17-2011, 15:49   #81
NorthCarolinaLiberty
MentalDefective
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tax Funded Mental Institution
Posts: 5,144
Blog Entries: 1
No one is saying not to address voting, but it goes a lot further than that. Abdication of responsibility by law enforcement is on par with, "Tell it to the judge" and "Write your congressman."

No dictator, oppressive government, or closed government ever held sway without strong law enforcement.
NorthCarolinaLiberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 15:52   #82
NorthCarolinaLiberty
MentalDefective
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tax Funded Mental Institution
Posts: 5,144
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by trifecta View Post
Charlotte offers connecting flights for anyone in the North Carolina area wanting to permanently experience the glory of living in the Philippines.
Oh, I have experienced it, my friend. Give it a try some time.
NorthCarolinaLiberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 16:44   #83
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 44,527
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
Oh, I have experienced it, my friend...
To what extent?
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 21:17   #84
SgtScott31
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
Government run amok can't be understood unless you look at the totality: making laws, enforcing laws, interpreting laws. They are equal. They all are cogs in the wheel of big government.

Denial of the police role in that totality is to deny reality. Law enforcement administratively aims for wide discretion in street situations and interactions, but they would like to politically downplay that discretion.

You only have to compare the U.S. to other countries to understand the context. A government like the Philippines is not considered strong. This includes police. Filipinos do not fear the police. Police can fear the people. Each part of Filipino government is perceived just like the other parts.

Americans often fear the police, similar to public reaction in dictatorial, oppressive, or closed countries.
Government is out to ruin your life on every possible level. We get it. On with the next one wearing the tin foil hat and living in a bomb shelter.

*On a side note, just because he didn't have a prior criminal history does not mean he wasn't a criminal. It means he hasn't got caught. I'll be sure you use that way of thinking on the next guy I arrest and cut him loose because nothing comes up in NCIC...give me a break.

Last edited by SgtScott31; 06-17-2011 at 21:18..
SgtScott31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2011, 11:55   #85
NorthCarolinaLiberty
MentalDefective
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tax Funded Mental Institution
Posts: 5,144
Blog Entries: 1
This example might illustrate police as overbearing government.

I sometimes visit a flea market in our area. The woman who makes hot dogs and sandwiches told me about the health department wanting to shut her down. She has been there a long time and there was really no rhyme or reason for the shutdown. She is quite clean, but she is the only person in the flea market selling food. I could be wrong, but my guess is the health department does not want to make a trip to a flea market with only one inspection of a small operation. Itís time consuming.

This woman also told me about some government department putting a stop to displaying wares in a grassy area outside the flea market. Vendors objected because the outdoors provides good visibility for car traffic. Not much rhyme or reason there either. Itís a flea market in a relatively poor county.

The third story is how this woman got a seatbelt citation for $131.50. She went no more than ľ mile down a side road exiting Walmart. Her destination could not have been any more than a couple hundred yards. Another vendor at the flea market told me about the $131.50 seatbelt citation he got at a recent seatbelt checkpoint.

These are all examples of an overbearing government. The seatbelt example runs contrary to how police have been portrayed in this thread. The police are not some robotic entity enforcing cut and dried laws. They choose what laws get priority. They choose what is enforced and how aggressively it is enforced. They use judgment in administrative decisions. They use discretion in the street.

It is a shame that the checkpoint law covers so many sections in chapter 20 of the North Carolina Statutes, but the police chose to focus on the biggest moneymaker. The $131.50 fine is their easiest way to shoot fish in barrel. What makes it crummier is fining people that amount in this lousy economy. Itís not right. It happens everywhere around the country. Itís a systemic government problem. I believe itís a fair criticism.
NorthCarolinaLiberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2011, 12:20   #86
NorthCarolinaLiberty
MentalDefective
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tax Funded Mental Institution
Posts: 5,144
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
To what extent?
I've been over there 6 times. My wife (a Filipino) was walking down the street one day, jaywalking or some such. A police officer confronts her about her terrible violation. I was not with her that day, but apparently she was in a rare bad mood. She said to that officer, "WHAT DO YOU WANT?! ARE YOU COLLECTING MONEY?!"

That officer made himself scarce. A pretty common occurrence.
NorthCarolinaLiberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2011, 15:37   #87
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 44,527
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
This example might illustrate police as overbearing government.
Okay, lets see this first example of police being the overbearing government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
I sometimes visit a flea market in our area. The woman who makes hot dogs and sandwiches told me about the health department wanting to shut her down...
No need to read further. This isn't a tale about police. It's about the health department.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
This woman also told me about some government department ...
Again, no need to read further. This tale is not about the police at all. It is about some government department.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
The third story is how this woman got a seatbelt citation for $131.50. She went no more than ľ mile down a side road exiting Walmart. Her destination could not have been any more than a couple hundred yards. Another vendor at the flea market told me about the $131.50 seatbelt citation he got at a recent seatbelt checkpoint.
Tell us, please, to whom does the seatbelt law apply? Are there exceptions for distant traveled on a public road? Here in Virginia if you are operating a motor vehicle, you must wear a seatbelt. Don't want a 131.50 fine? Wear the belt, problem is solved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
These are all examples of an overbearing government. The seatbelt example runs contrary to how police have been portrayed in this thread. The police are not some robotic entity enforcing cut and dried laws. They choose what laws get priority. They choose what is enforced and how aggressively it is enforced. They use judgment in administrative decisions. They use discretion in the street.

It is a shame that the checkpoint law covers so many sections in chapter 20 of the North Carolina Statutes, but the police chose to focus on the biggest moneymaker. The $131.50 fine is their easiest way to shoot fish in barrel. What makes it crummier is fining people that amount in this lousy economy. It’s not right. It happens everywhere around the country. It’s a systemic government problem. I believe it’s a fair criticism.
Okay, now it is noted that you oppose laws mandating the wearing of seatbelts, or is it you don't like police enforcing the law, or is it you just don't like police doing anything? Which is it?
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921

Last edited by RussP; 06-19-2011 at 15:45..
RussP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 08:31   #88
volsbear
Lifetime Membership
IWannaBeSedated
 
volsbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 12,099
I cannot imagine how wet NorthCarolinaLiberty must be by now given the rate at which he tinkles into the wind.
__________________
"Fast is fine. But accuracy is final."

"He'd look better with lividity" - BlueIron

Black Rifle Club - RRA-PSG
S&W Club - 22227
volsbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 00:46   #89
ugly8604
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 917
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
Why would I bother posting anything else if people are not even reading what is already posted? Did anyone bother to read the King case?

An exigent circumstance is not an officer thinking he heard "something moving around." If someone bangs on my door, then of course I am going to move around. Who is not going to move around when someone bangs on the door?

The fact is that evidence was not being destroyed. The officer who claimed evidence was being destroyed got it wrong.

Yes, exigencies have changed. Police created the exigent circumstance in King. The actions resulting from that creation were traditionally unacceptable. It is now acceptable.
Apparently you did not read the King case.

Refer to the following PREVIOUSLY posted fact:

"The second example is the Kentucky V. King decision the gentleman in the video is speaking of. His interpretation of the facts is severely misconstrued. He states the police are chasing a "so called suspect" (he was a suspect, he had just sold drugs to an undercover cop) through an apartment building. The gentleman states the officers lose the suspect and randomly "blow down" a door they can smell marijuana coming from. When in reality, the police were only a few feet behind the suspect while running through the apartment complex, the suspect turned a sudden corner and was out of sight for only a few seconds. Within those few seconds the police heard a door slam. When they turned the corner there were two doors. They smelled marijuana emitting from the door on the right. Knowing they were dealing with a confirmed drug dealer, the officers felt it was more probable the drug dealer had run into the apartment was emitting the smell of, you guessed it, an illegal drug.

The police were in "hot pursuit" and acted in "good faith," although they entered the wrong door, their intentions were clearly not simply to kick a random door and do a random search. They were hot on the trail of a bad guy and were trying to find him, the fact they stumbled across additional narcotics is just dumb luck. The supreme court has recognized "good faith" and "hot pursuit" as forgivable instances where law enforcement officials have made errors, but did so without purposely violating the fourth amendment. Our forefathers agreed. "


Door slammed, marijuana emitting, toilet flushing, cops had every reason to kick in the door. Damned lucky mistake. They did it as an act of GOOD FAITH.
__________________
To intimidate those who intimidate others.
ugly8604 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 00:47   #90
ugly8604
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 917
After reading the last page, it's obvious NorthCarolinaLiberty has no idea what he is talking about. I'm done with this thread. He is a clown.
__________________
To intimidate those who intimidate others.
ugly8604 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 01:00   #91
NorthCarolinaLiberty
MentalDefective
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tax Funded Mental Institution
Posts: 5,144
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Which is it?

Well, for starters, it is not police drawing guns while confiscating yogurt and cheese from a health food store.

This video is Venice, California's finest raiding Rawsome Co-op. The FDA has been miffed about raw dairy sales for quite some time, so the police had to pull their guns. The employees even got frisked.

"Watch out, officer! That organic tomato has a 10mm!"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5zPhhNUakc
NorthCarolinaLiberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 01:58   #92
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 44,527
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Okay, lets see this first example of police being the overbearing government. No need to read further. This isn't a tale about police. It's about the health department.Again, no need to read further. This tale is not about the police at all. It is about some government department. Tell us, please, to whom does the seatbelt law apply? Are there exceptions for distant traveled on a public road? Here in Virginia if you are operating a motor vehicle, you must wear a seatbelt. Don't want a 131.50 fine? Wear the belt, problem is solved.Okay, now it is noted that you oppose laws mandating the wearing of seatbelts, or is it you don't like police enforcing the law, or is it you just don't like police doing anything? Which is it?
How did you get from issues the health department had with a flea market food vendor, an unidentified agency's issues with vendors outside the flea market venue, and two seatbelt fines to
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
Well, for starters, it is not police drawing guns while confiscating yogurt and cheese from a health food store.

This video is Venice, California's finest raiding Rawsome Co-op. The FDA has been miffed about raw dairy sales for quite some time, so the police had to pull their guns. The employees even got frisked.

"Watch out, officer! That organic tomato has a 10mm!"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5zPhhNUakc
? That's pathetic.

Like Sam Spade, I'm going to leave you to talk with yourself, for you are probably the only one who understands your rants.
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 06:09   #93
NorthCarolinaLiberty
MentalDefective
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tax Funded Mental Institution
Posts: 5,144
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
How did you get from issues the health department had with a flea market food vendor, an unidentified agency's issues with vendors outside the flea market venue, and two seatbelt fines...
Those three issues were one's woman's experience with an overbearing government.


That's pathetic.
We finally agree. It is pathetic.

That is the changing face of police in America.
.....
NorthCarolinaLiberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 07:49   #94
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 44,527
Blog Entries: 64
Yes, I did say I was going to leave you in your little room all by yourself, but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
How did you get from issues the health department had with a flea market food vendor, an unidentified agency's issues with vendors outside the flea market venue, and two seatbelt fines...
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
Those three issues were one's woman's experience with an overbearing government.
Thread title: "The Changing Face of Police in America". Demonstrated relationship between thread title and OP's cited examples = 0.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
That's pathetic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
We finally agree. It is pathetic.
Agree? No, it is obvious we do not agree, at all. You would first have to understand what I am saying. That isn't happening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
That is the changing face of police in America.
So the actions of the Health Department and the "Unidentified" government agency illustrates "the changing face of police in America".

Your point is one made by many in and out of LE when discussing those who post against any action by what they perceive is oppressive, overbearing government, even when the action is not directly involving law enforcement. Law enforcement is the visible target. You associate LE with ALL actions by government that you don't like.

And you know what some of us have discovered? There are those of you who have no interest in identifying and solving the root cause of the problem(s). Eliminate those core causes and you would have nothing to whine about.

Keep coming up with your pathetic examples, examples not related to LE, and blame it all on LE. It makes for a "B-Movie" level of entertainment.
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 10:34   #95
lwbfl
2A Defender
 
lwbfl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 146
Someone slipped thier jacket again............
Civil Liberties Issues
__________________
NRA Recruiter
FDLE & NRA Firearms Instructor
Glock Armorer
Glock 27 & G22 Gen 4
lwbfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 12:57   #96
NorthCarolinaLiberty
MentalDefective
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tax Funded Mental Institution
Posts: 5,144
Blog Entries: 1
Russ,

I noticed this in your signature line: "We have GOT to start showing our appreciation for good cops just as much as we protest the bad ones."

You want accolades for LE, but think that they should somehow be immune from any criticism. Seems a little sensitive.

The overbearing governement is overzealous enforcement of laws and regulations, whether they be from the health dept. or the police. The three flea market examples pertained to one's woman's experience with enforcement of laws and regulations. The health food store video shows local law enforcement drawing weapons in a food co-op. They were working with the FDA to confiscate raw dairy products.

It's all enfocement. I mentioned before how enforcement is one of three basic government functions, the others, of course, being legislation and interpretation. They work together. Bad laws. Overzealous enforcement. Outrageous fines. All root problems of overbearing government.

NorthCarolinaLiberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 18:42   #97
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 44,527
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
Russ,

I noticed this in your signature line: "We have GOT to start showing our appreciation for good cops just as much as we protest the bad ones."

You want accolades for LE, but think that they should somehow be immune from any criticism. Seems a little sensitive.
See the part in blue? What does that mean? It means we criticize the bad cops. Did you just ignore that part? I challenge you to find any post by me saying bad cops should be immune from any criticism. Your problem is not having the capacity to see anything but bad in law enforcement. To you, law enforcement is the source of all evil in government. That's how it is in your little world. The remainder of your post illustrates your unmitigated bias.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
The overbearing governement is overzealous enforcement of laws and regulations, whether they be from the health dept. or the police. The three flea market examples pertained to one's woman's experience with enforcement of laws and regulations. The health food store video shows local law enforcement drawing weapons in a food co-op. They were working with the FDA to confiscate raw dairy products.

It's all enfocement. I mentioned before how enforcement is one of three basic government functions, the others, of course, being legislation and interpretation. They work together. Bad laws. Overzealous enforcement. Outrageous fines. All root problems of overbearing government.

__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 20:06   #98
NorthCarolinaLiberty
MentalDefective
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tax Funded Mental Institution
Posts: 5,144
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post

See the part in blue? What does that mean? It means we criticize the bad cops.
This has no relevance to this thread. There is bad in all professions and walks of life. There is bad in everyone. Thatís a philosophical and theological issue.




Did you just ignore that part? I challenge you to find any post by me saying bad cops should be immune from any criticism.
That is a clichť that distracts from systemic issues. Of course, bad officers should be criticized. Anything bad in this world should be criticized. It is a given that is not meaningful when talking about systemic issues.




Your problem is not having the capacity to see anything but bad in law enforcement. To you, law enforcement is the source of all evil in government. That's how it is in your little world. The remainder of your post illustrates your unmitigated bias.
Your world is an ideological one that does not separate good enforcement from bad enforcement. You either lack the ability or the will discern types of enforcement, priorities, administrative decisions, or discretion.

My world is law enforcement taking out bad guys. Murderers. Armed robbers. Rapists. My view is law enforcement NOT increasingly interacting with the law abiding at ineffective checkpoints. It is NOT the heavy-handedness displayed by drawing weapons at a health food store. It is NOT participating in seatbelt fines that could mean taking half of someoneís weekly paycheck.

The world has changed. The real bad guys are still a priority, but effectiveness in taking them out has been compromised by the types of examples I have given. These examples are increasing. That increase is the changing face of police in America.

.....
NorthCarolinaLiberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 20:55   #99
BL33D 4 M3
SDMF
 
BL33D 4 M3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chicago/North Burbs
Posts: 880
The changing face of police in America. I would suggest a direct relationship to the changing face of crime in America.
BL33D 4 M3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2011, 08:00   #100
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 44,527
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
This has no relevance to this thread. There is bad in all professions and walks of life. There is bad in everyone. Thatís a philosophical and theological issue.
First you, you introduce my sig line into the discussion. NOW you, yes, you say, "This has no relevance to this thread." Why did you change your mind? Why did you even bring it up in the discussion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
That is a clichť that distracts from systemic issues. Of course, bad officers should be criticized. Anything bad in this world should be criticized. It is a given that is not meaningful when talking about systemic issues.
Again, why then did you bring it up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
Your world is an ideological one that does not separate good enforcement from bad enforcement. You either lack the ability or the will discern types of enforcement, priorities, administrative decisions, or discretion.
That made me laugh. I met yesterday afternoon with some people to discuss exactly that issue - selective enforcement and, well, call it overly enthusiastic enforcement decreed by elected officials. LE was not even discussed. We were formulating plans to address the problem at the source, the elected officials and their appointed department/committee heads.

So, no, my world is a very, very real one where the good is applauded and the bad is attacked with focus on solving the issue at the source of the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
My world is law enforcement taking out bad guys. Murderers. Armed robbers. Rapists. My view is law enforcement NOT increasingly interacting with the law abiding at ineffective checkpoints. It is NOT the heavy-handedness displayed by drawing weapons at a health food store. It is NOT participating in seatbelt fines that could mean taking half of someoneís weekly paycheck.
Checkpoints, yes, we know you do not like checkpoints. Lots of people do not like checkpoints. As long as legislation and the courts allow them, they will be part of enforcing the law.

Seatbelt fines are here to stay, too. Seatbelts save lives, reduce injuries, don't they? Do you wear your seatbelt when in a moving car? The law is written by legislators. The fines are set in that law by the legislators. Don't like the law...get it changed. But that would be near impossible these days, right? Attack the enforcement of the law is easier, right? Are there other laws you'd like to see not enforced?

How much do you know about the history behind the Rawsome incident? What do you know about the actual "raid" that day? What do you know about why the police entered with drawn weapons? What agency authorized the raid? What agencies were involved in the raid? What agency (or agencies) requested police assistance? Why did those agencies feel the need for an armed police presence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
The world has changed. The real bad guys are still a priority, but effectiveness in taking them out has been compromised by the types of examples I have given. These examples are increasing. That increase is the changing face of police in America.
Are they increasing as dramatically as you propose, or is there just more focus on them. Let's take the Rawsome event as "the face of LE".

I believe there are approximately 9,500 sworn officers in the LAPD. This took place in the daylight hours, so let's say 40% of those officers work days. That would be 3,800 officers working an 8-hr shift, or about 30,400 manhours.

What were there, 5 officers at the Rawsome site? They spent, what, three hours there? That's about 15 manhours.

15/30400 = 0.0493%, round that to .05%. 5/100ths of the total manhours for that shift were used at the Rawsome event. That you say represents the changing face of LE?

Yes, you will say that Rawsome was but one event of perhaps hundreds that day in LA. Okay, go with 500 such events you would find offensive on that shift. That brings the nuber up to 0.25%. Is that now an accurate picture of the changing face of law enforcement?

Look at the attached image. That is a photo of me. See the section the arrow points to? That section is 0.25% of the photo. Can you tell what I look like from that 0.25% of the entire image? Is 0.25% of that photo represent an accurate image of my face?

The "changing face of law enforcement", the title of this thread, is that which is emphasized by the main stream media, bloggers, and even forum participants to further their agendas.

Let me add, there is no doubt that many of those which are emphasized very often deserve attention and scrutiny. But, you cannot, as you are doing, lay all the blame on all acts of enforcement.
Attached Thumbnails
Civil Liberties Issues - Click for larger version  
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:26.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 570
161 Members
409 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31