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Old 06-22-2011, 08:01   #101
RussP
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Originally Posted by BL33D 4 M3 View Post
The changing face of police in America. I would suggest a direct relationship to the changing face of crime in America.
I agree.
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Old 06-22-2011, 13:10   #102
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First you, you introduce my sig line into the discussion. NOW you, yes, you say, "This has no relevance to this thread."
The signature line is your point of view reflected in this thread, but the thread is not about "good cops-bad cops." We are discussing things like policy.

selective enforcement and, well, call it overly enthusiastic enforcement decreed by elected officials.
Ah, blaming someone else. You refuse to take personal responsibility.

LE was not even discussed.
That's like discussing Thanksgiving dinner without the dark meat.

So, no, my world is a very, very real one where the good is applauded and the bad is attacked with focus on solving the issue at the source of the problem.Checkpoints, yes, we know you do not like checkpoints. Lots of people do not like checkpoints. As long as legislation and the courts allow them, they will be part of enforcing the law.
Law enforcement performs them, an equal function to the functions of legislatures and courts.

Seatbelt fines are here to stay, too. Seatbelts save lives, reduce injuries, don't they?
Is that the responsibility of government or the individual?



Do you wear your seatbelt when in a moving car?
Yes.

The law is written by legislators. The fines are set in that law by the legislators. Don't like the law...get it changed.
I am working on it.

But that would be near impossible these days, right?
No.

Attack the enforcement of the law is easier, right?
Enforcement is eqaul to legislation. You can't take criticism.

How much do you know about the history behind the Rawsome incident?
Quite a bit. How much did you bother to find out, or is it just another event that you want to sweep under the rug?

I believe there are approximately 9,500 sworn officers in the LAPD.
It was Venice, California. You are commenting on something, but don't know the basic facts.


But, you cannot, as you are doing, lay all the blame on all acts of enforcement.
I never did. I am saying these are government issues, shared equally by the three branches and functions of government. You decline to acknowledge any responsiblity. Your view is to blame someone else. Point the finger at legislators, courts, or anyone else.
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Old 06-22-2011, 13:11   #103
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I agree.
How so?
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Old 06-22-2011, 17:04   #104
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You know, it is just too difficult trying to relate what you post to the posts you are supposedly responding to.

Facts are not really relevant to you. You make broad generalized comments but don't provide details, verifiable details of events you talk about.

When confronted with facts that are contrary to your beliefs, you ignore them choosing instead to demean the person challenging you.

Have fun playing your little games.
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Old 06-22-2011, 19:08   #105
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Facts are not really relevant to you. You make broad generalized comments but don't provide details, verifiable details of events you talk about.
I provided several events and their factual details, but you respond with vague abstractions. You respond with cliches, such as get out and vote.

It seems that you actually bristle when someone nails down an issue and provides details. I put a face on an issue, but your graphic (you in a picture) suggests a blurred reality that shifts responsibility to a faceless entity that just can't be nailed down.
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:27   #106
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Here are your posts...
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Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
HereIt'
Hereís a good video summation of the changing face of law enforcement in America. It includes footage of the swat team that murdered the Marine in Arizona. Rutherfordís John Whitehead also comments on how police are now free to just knock down your door when the mood strikes them.

Video from The Rutherford Institute:

http://www.rutherford.org/OnTarget/2011/06-01-2011.asp
bIt's been about 250 years since our ancestors fought to ensure that AmericaIt's been about 250 years since our ancestors fought to ensure that Americans would never have to face intrusive government measures
It's been about 250 years since our ancestors fought to ensure that Americans would never have to face intrusive government measures again. Yet as John Whitehead points out in this week's vodcast, we seem to be right back where we started, living in an era of oppressive government policies and a militarized police whose unauthorized, forceful intrusions into our homes and our lives have been increasingly condoned by the courts.

















again. Yet as John Whitehead points out in this week's vodcast, we seem to beIt's been about 250 years since our ancestors fought to ensure that Amerihttp://www.rutherford.org/OnTarget/2011/06-01-2011.aspcans would t to ensure that Americans would never have to face intrusive government measures again. Yet as John Whitehead points out in this week's vodcast, we seem to be right back where we started, living in an era of oppressive government policies and a militarized police whose unauthorized, forceful intrusions into our homes and our lives have been increasingly condoned by the courtsght back where we started, living in an era of oppressive government policies and a militarized police whose unauthorized, forceful intrusions into our homes and our lives have been increasingly condoned by the courts. ns would never have to face intrusive government measures again. Yet as John Whitehead points out in this week's vodcast, we seem to be right back where we started, living in an era of oppressive government policies and a militarized police whose unauthorized, forceful intrusions into our homes and our lives have been increasingly condoned by the courts. een about 250 years since our ancestors fought to ensure that Americans would never have to face intrusive government measures again. Yet as John Whitehead points out in this week's vodcast, we seem to be right back where we started, living in an era of oppressive government policies and a militarized police whose unauthorized, forceful intrusions into our homes and our lives have been increasingly condoned by the courts.
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Law enforcement shrewdly likes to use the 6 o'clock local news as their own personal police blotter, so perhaps they got a taste of their own medicine in this one. What they discovered in Guerena's home hardly matches their Pablo Escobar claims. Perhaps they should reveal the real reason for secrecy.

The King case is actually a perfect example of how the 4th amendment has been eroded. Marijuana smoke from behind a door is hardly exigent. Neo Reefer Madness has created a mindset whereby police equate a person getting choked to death with some dude behind a door smoking a fat one.
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You're right; some judges have dropped the ball on these issues. Some judges don't even know how rules are being bent and how limits are being redefined in the real world. Pointing to another branch of government however, is still no excuse for law enforcement not doing its job.
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Courts have always existed. Large awards funded by taxpayers is hardly a solution for the wrongs you cite.

Wrongs aren't also just the blatant wrongs you list. They also include bending the rules and redefining interaction with the law-abiding public. Stop casting wide nets and do the job.
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It's not exigent if they can get a warrant. The police could have easily gotten a warrant in this case.
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The trend is to cast wide nets and deal with a lot of people who are not breaking the law.
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You would have to argue with a judge on this? How about presenting your facts the way it is normally done.
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Don't take my word for it. Just look at all of the dozens of botched raids in the past couple of decades. It's no accident that these foul-ups coincide with increased militarization, including introduction of SWAT for things like weed. Ask that mayor why the boneheads had to shoot his two labs. "Oh, gee sorry, Mayor, guess we'll have to buy you a couple of dogs." Sure, go ahead and be sloppy and point to someone else. The taxpayers will always foot the bill in the name of your new found exigencies.
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You are part the problem. Law enforcement is one branch of government, equal with the other two branches.
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The police fall under executive. They enforce laws.
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You tell me. The police knocked down the door.
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I am talking about the increase of raids over the decades. The percentage can still be the same, but the raw numbers will increase. Those raw numbers take the form of innocent people being harmed or killed.
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I'll take that as confirmation you didn't watch the video, see the case, or even bother to read the posts.
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Says who?
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You are shifting the responsibility. The police are an equal branch of government.
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Considering that the police have tried to make their jobs easier by casting the wide nets, they might as well sweep. At least it's something useful.
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What are you talking about?
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What is silly? Legislators make laws. Police enforce laws. Courts interpret laws.
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How about posting something of your own, or at least addressing what is already posted? I suppose thatís too much work for you, somewhat in the vein of how itís too much work for police to get that warrant, or determine the facts before shooting a manís dogs, or taking the easy way out by getting bailed out by an Indiana judge.

I guess all of us should be prepared to taking our beatings and let the taxpayers compensate us later.
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Why would I bother posting anything else if people are not even reading what is already posted? Did anyone bother to read the King case?

An exigent circumstance is not an officer thinking he heard "something moving around." If someone bangs on my door, then of course I am going to move around. Who is not going to move around when someone bangs on the door?

The fact is that evidence was not being destroyed. The officer who claimed evidence was being destroyed got it wrong.

Yes, exigencies have changed. Police created the exigent circumstance in King. The actions resulting from that creation were traditionally unacceptable. It is now acceptable.
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5 Facts of the King case:

1. Police created the exigency. Warrantless searches were traditionally prohibited under those circumstances.

2. Police had the wrong apartment. They guessed.

3. The door knock was not the casual knock and talk. It was an assertive knock that meant business.

4. The exigency was based on Officer Cobbís testimony that ďsomething moved.Ē

5. Cobbís claim of evidence destruction was wrong.
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If you've read the case, why are you asking the most basic questions about the case?
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I reread this thread. This problem must be deeper than I thought because I only imagined it to be perspective. I don't know how one begins addressing a government problem when the people discussing it don't even know the basic branches of government and their functions.
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You still don't understand. These police are not federal. There is an equivalent branch structure at other levels, including state, city, county, etc.
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Is this an Abbott and Costello sketch?
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Do you know how to look up a case? There's a new invention out. It's called a search engine. Even Russ "I ask a million questions" The Moderator finally looked something up.

You're also one of the posters who doesn't comprehend that law enforcment is a government function.
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Government run amok can't be understood unless you look at the totality: making laws, enforcing laws, interpreting laws. They are equal. They all are cogs in the wheel of big government.

Denial of the police role in that totality is to deny reality. Law enforcement administratively aims for wide discretion in street situations and interactions, but they would like to politically downplay that discretion.

You only have to compare the U.S. to other countries to understand the context. A government like the Philippines is not considered strong. This includes police. Filipinos do not fear the police. Police can fear the people. Each part of Filipino government is perceived just like the other parts.

Americans often fear the police, similar to public reaction in dictatorial, oppressive, or closed countries.
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No one is saying not to address voting, but it goes a lot further than that. Abdication of responsibility by law enforcement is on par with, "Tell it to the judge" and "Write your congressman."

No dictator, oppressive government, or closed government ever held sway without strong law enforcement.
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Oh, I have experienced it, my friend. Give it a try some time.
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This example might illustrate police as overbearing government.

I sometimes visit a flea market in our area. The woman who makes hot dogs and sandwiches told me about the health department wanting to shut her down. She has been there a long time and there was really no rhyme or reason for the shutdown. She is quite clean, but she is the only person in the flea market selling food. I could be wrong, but my guess is the health department does not want to make a trip to a flea market with only one inspection of a small operation. Itís time consuming.

This woman also told me about some government department putting a stop to displaying wares in a grassy area outside the flea market. Vendors objected because the outdoors provides good visibility for car traffic. Not much rhyme or reason there either. Itís a flea market in a relatively poor county.

The third story is how this woman got a seatbelt citation for $131.50. She went no more than ľ mile down a side road exiting Walmart. Her destination could not have been any more than a couple hundred yards. Another vendor at the flea market told me about the $131.50 seatbelt citation he got at a recent seatbelt checkpoint.

These are all examples of an overbearing government. The seatbelt example runs contrary to how police have been portrayed in this thread. The police are not some robotic entity enforcing cut and dried laws. They choose what laws get priority. They choose what is enforced and how aggressively it is enforced. They use judgment in administrative decisions. They use discretion in the street.

It is a shame that the checkpoint law covers so many sections in chapter 20 of the North Carolina Statutes, but the police chose to focus on the biggest moneymaker. The $131.50 fine is their easiest way to shoot fish in barrel. What makes it crummier is fining people that amount in this lousy economy. Itís not right. It happens everywhere around the country. Itís a systemic government problem. I believe itís a fair criticism.
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I've been over there 6 times. My wife (a Filipino) was walking down the street one day, jaywalking or some such. A police officer confronts her about her terrible violation. I was not with her that day, but apparently she was in a rare bad mood. She said to that officer, "WHAT DO YOU WANT?! ARE YOU COLLECTING MONEY?!"

That officer made himself scarce. A pretty common occurrence.
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Well, for starters, it is not police drawing guns while confiscating yogurt and cheese from a health food store.

This video is Venice, California's finest raiding Rawsome Co-op. The FDA has been miffed about raw dairy sales for quite some time, so the police had to pull their guns. The employees even got frisked.

"Watch out, officer! That organic tomato has a 10mm!"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5zPhhNUakc
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Russ,

I noticed this in your signature line: "We have GOT to start showing our appreciation for good cops just as much as we protest the bad ones."

You want accolades for LE, but think that they should somehow be immune from any criticism. Seems a little sensitive.

The overbearing governement is overzealous enforcement of laws and regulations, whether they be from the health dept. or the police. The three flea market examples pertained to one's woman's experience with enforcement of laws and regulations. The health food store video shows local law enforcement drawing weapons in a food co-op. They were working with the FDA to confiscate raw dairy products.

It's all enfocement. I mentioned before how enforcement is one of three basic government functions, the others, of course, being legislation and interpretation. They work together. Bad laws. Overzealous enforcement. Outrageous fines. All root problems of overbearing government.

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How so?
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I provided several events and their factual details, but you respond with vague abstractions. You respond with cliches, such as get out and vote.

It seems that you actually bristle when someone nails down an issue and provides details. I put a face on an issue, but your graphic (you in a picture) suggests a blurred reality that shifts responsibility to a faceless entity that just can't be nailed down.
Where are those several events and their factual details, verifiable details?
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Old 06-23-2011, 15:32   #107
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The changing face of Police in America.


Civil Liberties Issues


Civil Liberties Issues


Civil Liberties Issues


Civil Liberties Issues




Civil Liberties Issues



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Old 06-23-2011, 20:40   #108
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Where are those several events and their factual details, verifiable details?
Where aren't those details?

You talk about the changing face of crime in America, but post nothing of your own.
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Old 06-23-2011, 21:00   #109
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I agree.
You disagree with the thread's premise, but agree with this GT member, when he posts, "The changing face of police in America. I would suggest a direct relationship to the changing face of crime in America."

Which is it?
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Old 06-23-2011, 21:01   #110
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The changing face of police in America. I would suggest a direct relationship to the changing face of crime in America.
Probably one of the most obvious and accurate posts in this thread. And thank you for posting it.
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Old 06-24-2011, 04:38   #111
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Probably one of the most obvious and accurate posts in this thread. And thank you for posting it.
Cheers.
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Old 06-24-2011, 06:44   #112
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The real problem in all of this is that one image of one specialized segment of a multi-faceted, muti-tasked organization cannot be representative of the whole, just as the negative action of one individual does not prove all are like that one.
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Old 06-24-2011, 10:35   #113
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The real problem in all of this is that one image of one specialized segment of a multi-faceted, muti-tasked organization can be representative of the whole, just as the negative action of one individual does not prove all are like that one.
I nominate this for post of the year!
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Old 07-04-2011, 18:07   #114
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The clown in the video is playing to a specific audience. He's not really knowledgeable in terms of Fourth Amendment issues, but he's extremely knowledgeable in terms of picking words that are inflammatory, vague, and ambiguous.

NCL is part of that audience. Reading his posts tells me that he's firmly entrenched in the side of, "My mind's made up. Don't confuse me with facts."

Re the former marine: criminal behavior is determined by actions, rather than convictions. Convictions, remember, happen after behaviors take place.
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Old 07-04-2011, 19:17   #115
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I just found and read the affidavit as prepared and sworn to by Detective Tisch. I've written around 700-800 of my own, and know just a bit about how to put them together. This one does a pretty good job of nailing down a drug dealing conspiracy.

I rather suspect that NCL has never seen a real search warrant, has no idea what a search warrant really is, and really doesn't understand it's purpose.

It would seem that the issue, to NCL, is two-fold. One, the entry. I can tell you that if I made entry into a house, and the suspect appeared with a rifle, there would be no conversation. There just isn't time. He took a chance and he lost. If he did make comments to the effect of "I've got something for you," well, his misplaced sense of machismo turned out to be a negative thing.

NCL's second problem is that nothing was found during the search. When told that that's irrelevant, he has trouble understanding the concept. NCL, a search warrant is and order from a magistrate to any peace officer. It says in essence that sufficient evidence has been shown to the magistrate to justify a search for certain (usually) enumerated items and to bring them before the court. It does not say that if nothing is found, the warrant is invalid. Search warrants come up "dry" for any number of reasons. Sometimes they're just out of dope and are waiting for more to arrive. Sometimes the police just can't find it. And on and on. NCL, you need to go to school and study a bit of constitutional law. At least that way you'd have some idea of what you're trying to discuss.
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Old 07-05-2011, 22:18   #116
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Search warrants come up "dry" for any number of reasons. Sometimes they're just out of dope and are waiting for more to arrive. Sometimes the police just can't find it. And on and on.
And sometimes they come up dry because someone is not guilty and another person was too lazy to do their homework. Sometimes old ladies get killed. Sometimes the mayor's dogs get shot. Sometimes law enforcement loses it way and casts wide nets. And on and on.
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Old 07-05-2011, 22:23   #117
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NCL, you're out of your mind and not worth talking to. You are anti-police, and not interested in learning a thing from anyone. You're just a wast of time.

In the case of the ones I wrote, if I didn't get it the first time, I got it the second time. Again, I suggest you grow a backbone and then try to do the job instead of just being a troll.
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Old 07-05-2011, 22:27   #118
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I would guess that you live in some sort of paranoid fantasy world. Are you in therapy? If not, you should be.

I never killed and old lady, I never shot the mayor's dog, although I did shoot others, and re search warrants, if I didn't get what I needed the first time, I re-interviewed my informants and worked the crook again. I always made my case on either the first or second shot. If you do it right, the innocent don't get arrested. To be perfectly honest, I liked to have a badge buy from the crook first, to establish PC, and then smack the little devil. Works every time. As your you, your argument works none of the time.
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Old 07-05-2011, 22:36   #119
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You are anti-police, and not interested in learning a thing from anyone.
I was always fairly, and maybe naively, indifferent about law enforcement for many years. I guess the best word I would use to describe it is neutral. I had no occasion to interact with law enforcement because I always legally minded my own.

I later became critrical when I witnessed law enforcement increasingly interact with the law-abiding. I noticed the casting of wide nets. I noticed law-breakers getting away because police were wasting time on the law-abiding. I noticed military style techniques in areas hardly comparable to military zones.

I certainly would not describe that as anti-anything. Maybe anti-wrong, but it seems some just don't want to address the facts.
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Old 07-05-2011, 22:38   #120
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.

I never killed and old lady, I never shot the mayor's dog,
That's good. Perhaps you are of another generation of officers that knew how to police.
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Old 07-06-2011, 05:02   #121
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I noticed military style techniques in areas hardly comparable to military zones.
Ooooooooooooooh it's the old, "increasing militarization of the police" argument. That's an empty claim. If you look at history, it's more appropriate to say the military is doing business more like the police, but whatever. I doubt you're interested in reality.
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Old 02-07-2012, 00:56   #122
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 04-29-2012, 02:20   #123
NorthCarolinaLiberty
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Update on the King v. Kentucky Case:


From the opinion:

"Consistent with the instructions on remand from the United States
Supreme Court, this Court concludes that exigent circumstances did not exist
when police made a warrantless entry of the apartment occupied by Appellant
King. Therefore, the denial of King's motion to suppress evidence is reversed,

and King's judgment of conviction stands vacated."

http://opinions.kycourts.net/sc/2008-SC-000274-DG.pdf


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Old 04-29-2012, 12:54   #124
Mister_Beefy
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heh, somehow I doubt TheeBadOne will be bumping this thread again in another 7 months.

Last edited by Mister_Beefy; 04-29-2012 at 12:55.. Reason: typo
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Old 04-29-2012, 21:18   #125
RussP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister_Beefy View Post
heh, somehow I doubt TheeBadOne will be bumping this thread again in another 7 months.
Put it on your calendar to remind him.
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