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Old 06-09-2011, 16:32   #1
tuf8seconds
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Florida - SB-234 Open Carry Bill.....

I just got an e-mail about the SB-234 Open Carry Bill passing in Florida...I am headed to Florida tomorrow morning and I am just wondering if I will see citizens strapped up???...Can anyone tell me if that bill actually passed and if it does in fact mean that Open Carry is legal there and what the requirements are???...Thanks
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Old 06-09-2011, 16:33   #2
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GENERAL BILL by Rules; Criminal Justice; Evers; (CO-INTRODUCERS) Dockery; Lynn; Hays; Norman; Negron; Garcia; Altman
Firearms; Provides that a person who is licensed to carry a concealed firearm is not in violation of law if the firearm is briefly and openly displayed under certain circumstances. Allows the Division of Licensing of the DOACS to take fingerprints from concealed carry license applicants. Provides that a person may not openly carry a weapon or firearm or carry a concealed weapon or firearm into specified locations. Provides that concealed carry licensees shall not be prohibited from carrying or storing a firearm in a vehicle for lawful purposes, etc.
06/08/2011• Signed by Officers and presented to Governor

http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2011/234
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Old 06-09-2011, 16:49   #3
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[QUOTE=LoadToadBoss;17471247]06/08/2011• Signed by Officers and presented to Governor

http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2011/234[/Q

....So I take it, you still cannot Open Carry in Florida????....However if you accidentally show while carrying with a CWP, it's OK????...The finger printing stuff is pretty much the same???....Are these new conditions in affect yet???...Thanks for your help.
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Old 06-09-2011, 16:54   #4
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SB234 has been declawed in the legislative process. It has nothing to do with open carry anymore.
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Old 06-09-2011, 17:12   #5
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I first got an e-mail today (June 9, 2011), from a Senator that reads:

Thank you for your e-mail about legislation regarding concealed firearms, Senate Bill 234, which was considered during the 2011 Legislative session. This bill, which passed, will add Florida to the now 44 states which have open carry laws on their books.

As a strong supporter of second amendment rights, I voted for this bill which provides that if a concealed weapon is accidently revealed, it will not be a violation of firearm regulations. It will also allow a person licensed to carry a firearm to store it or carry it in a vehicle.

Thank you again for your e-mail on this issue.

Sincerely,
Jack
Jack Latvala
State Senator
District 16

And, I just got another e-mail today (June 9, 2011), from Sean Caranna" <sean@floridacarry.org that reads:

The senator is mistaken. Open carry was removed from the bill on the
senate floor.

Does anybody know what is going on for sure???....Needless to say, I'm still confused.....
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Old 06-09-2011, 17:27   #6
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It does not allow open carry. It only protects a ccwer from being arrested if the firearm is briefly and/or accidentally exposed. For example, the wind blows your jacket open or you reach up to grab something at a supermarket.
Open carry is only legal if going hunting, fishing, and to the range.
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Old 06-09-2011, 17:34   #7
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Thanks for everybody's in-put...I think that I better just assume that nothing has changed and take care of my business accordingly...Then, I cant go wrong...I'm for Open Carry and I hope that Florida gets their Open Carry issues fixed soon...Thanks again for your help.....
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Old 06-09-2011, 22:58   #8
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Originally Posted by glockurai View Post
It does not allow open carry. It only protects a ccwer from being arrested if the firearm is briefly and/or accidentally exposed. For example, the wind blows your jacket open or you reach up to grab something at a supermarket.
Open carry is only legal if going hunting, fishing, and to the range.
While it does say you can "briefly" display, it does not say it must be accidental. It can not be displayed in an "angry or threatening manner" unless it is for "necessary self-defense".

If the Gov did nothing it becomes law in 15 days from yesterday. If he signs it then it is law right away.
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Old 06-09-2011, 23:23   #9
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Dont know bout u but I dont want everyone to know im packin!
But cool that I dnt have to worry bout gettin snitched on by some old lady who spots it.
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:25   #10
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No open carry in FL and the law did not change that.

What it did was to perhaps, maybe, possibly remove certain events from within the OC prohibition.

As written the law is, frankly, kind of a mess. There's what everyone thinks it means, then there's what courts are going to say it means.

Imagine an overly enthusiastic police officer arrests you following one of these events:

1. Your weapon is inadvertently exposed when you reach down to the bottom shelf in a store and a LEO sees it and decides to hook you up.

2. Same as 1, but a shopper yells "OMG he has a gun" and faints, noisily knocking over a big stack of cans, and the cops are called.

3. You take your suit coat off as you are getting into your car, briefly exposing your weapon and a LEO sees it and decides to hook you up.

4. Sames as 3 but instead a gas station clerk sees the gun and calls in MWAG to 911.

5. You are putting air in a tire at the gas station and it's really hot, so you remove your jacket for the time it takes to fill the tire.

No one can say now how a given court is going to apply the new law to a given set of facts.

All that said, FL is a pretty gun friendly state and as a permit holder I've frankly never worried about inadvertent displays or even, for example, taking off my jacket as I enter my truck. I really would not expect that to result in a meaningful problem, even before the law.

Remember, this law is NOT the result of someone perceiving a need to stop arrests for inadvertent display -- it is instead the result of diluting an open carry law into near nothingness.

(All THAT said, i still think OC is nearly always a poor choice.)


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Old 06-10-2011, 10:40   #11
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No open carry in FL and the law did not change that.

What it did was to perhaps, maybe, possibly remove certain events from within the OC prohibition.

As written the law is, frankly, kind of a mess. There's what everyone thinks it means, then there's what courts are going to say it means.

Imagine an overly enthusiastic police officer arrests you following one of these events:

1. Your weapon is inadvertently exposed when you reach down to the bottom shelf in a store and a LEO sees it and decides to hook you up.

2. Same as 1, but a shopper yells "OMG he has a gun" and faints, noisily knocking over a big stack of cans, and the cops are called.

3. You take your suit coat off as you are getting into your car, briefly exposing your weapon and a LEO sees it and decides to hook you up.

4. Sames as 3 but instead a gas station clerk sees the gun and calls in MWAG to 911.

5. You are putting air in a tire at the gas station and it's really hot, so you remove your jacket for the time it takes to fill the tire.

No one can say now how a given court is going to apply the new law to a given set of facts.

All that said, FL is a pretty gun friendly state and as a permit holder I've frankly never worried about inadvertent displays or even, for example, taking off my jacket as I enter my truck. I really would not expect that to result in a meaningful problem, even before the law.

Remember, this law is NOT the result of someone perceiving a need to stop arrests for inadvertent display -- it is instead the result of diluting an open carry law into near nothingness.

(All THAT said, i still think OC is nearly always a poor choice.)


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With all due respect, you're all over the board on this.

You said "I've frankly never worried about inadvertent displays or even, for example, taking off my jacket as I enter my truck.".

Then you said "i still think OC is nearly always a poor choice".

Those statements are very much in conflict with each other.

While I agree that the language has problems especially the word "briefly", the fact remains that intentional (not accidental) exposure/display IS legal.

IT has nothing to due with who faints or reacts in an irrational way any more so than irrational reactions matter in all the 43 states that have bonafide OC.

You used an example of:

"Your weapon is inadvertently exposed when you reach down to the bottom shelf in a store and a LEO sees it and decides to hook you up."

The law clearly states that this would 'not be a violation'. If an officer were to hook you up it would be as bad police work as it would for him to arrest you for anything else that is a legal activity.

As the law was before the changes, what you described when you said you have "never worried about inadvertent displays", was clearly illegal but not under the new law.

The new law does not even say it needs to be inadvertent. It just can not be done as a threat or in anger unless there is a legit need for self defense.

I don't expect that I would OC in most cases even if a clear cut and dry OC bill had passed except for certain venues. OTOH, I like the fact that the new law will make some (not all) things less subjective by LE.

I do agree that a few things will need to be ruled upon by the courts to clarify whether there can be a definition of the term "briefly".
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Old 06-10-2011, 11:46   #12
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Black dobe wrote

Quote:
With all due respect, you're all over the board on this.
I'm not all over any board. I submitted some silly, fringe hypotheticals to demonstrate that the language of the statute is so poorly drafted that it shouldn't be counted on for much by anyone at this point.

Quote:
You said "I've frankly never worried about inadvertent displays or even, for example, taking off my jacket as I enter my truck.".

Then you said "i still think OC is nearly always a poor choice".

Those statements are very much in conflict with each other.
Those statements are not at all in conflict with one another.

Statement one expanded: Like 99% of people who wear a suit to work, I take off the jacket before I drive. When I do so, my pistol could be exposed to view for about a second if you happened to be looking in the right spot. I don't give this a moment's thought. In the wildly unlikely event it is noticed, the consequence to me will be essentially zero. That's not "open carry" and I'm not getting arrested for that.

Statement two expanded: I think OC by non-LEOs is ill advised on many levels, inter alia: dangerous w/o a retention holster and training, foolish to let others know you are armed, upsets the sheep, offers no tactical advantage while carrying several disadvantages. But to each his own -- if you are an OC acolyte, no skin off my nose. Making it legal wouldn't make it smart but, hey, go for it.

Again, no conflict or contradiction of any sort.

Quote:
As the law was before the changes, what you described when you said you have "never worried about inadvertent displays", was clearly illegal but not under the new law.
Simply wrong.

Quote:
The new law does not even say it needs to be inadvertent. It just can not be done as a threat or in anger unless there is a legit need for self defense.
If you think the new statute authorizes open carry in FL, or can even serve as a defense of open carry, please go ahead and do so. When you are arrested, I can recommend excellent criminal defense counsel pretty much anywhere in the state. I never take referral fees as I think they are ethically dubious. But all the CD lawyers I know well are excellent and costly -- so be ready to open carry your wallet.

Quote:
OTOH, I like the fact that the new law will make some (not all) things less subjective by LE.
That is what you hope and what you wish. That is not what will happen.

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Old 06-10-2011, 12:22   #13
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Originally Posted by tslex View Post
Black dobe wrote

I'm not all over any board. I submitted some silly, fringe hypotheticals to demonstrate that the language of the statute is so poorly drafted that it shouldn't be counted on for much by anyone at this point.

Those statements are not at all in conflict with one another.

Statement one expanded: Like 99% of people who wear a suit to work, I take off the jacket before I drive. When I do so, my pistol could be exposed to view for about a second if you happened to be looking in the right spot. I don't give this a moment's thought. In the wildly unlikely event it is noticed, the consequence to me will be essentially zero. I'm not getting arrested for that.

Statement two expanded: I think OC by non-LEOs is ill advised on many levels, inter alia: dangerous w/o a retention holster and training, foolish to let others know you are armed, upsets the sheep, offers no tactical advantage while carrying several disadvantages. But to each his own -- if you are an OC acolyte, no skin off my nose. Making it legal wouldn't make it smart but, hey, go for it.

Again, no conflict or contradiction of any sort.

Simply wrong.

If you think the new statute authorizes open carry in FL, or can even serve as a defense of open carry, please go ahead an do so. When you are arrested, I can recommend excellent criminal defense counsel pretty much anywhere in the state.

That is what you hope and what you wish. That is not what will happen.
I wouldn't come to you for such a recommendation for several reasons.

You come off as a very snarky attorney - you seem to have intentionally mischaracterized my positions in my post.

If that is not the case then I have no confidence that you read my post. For example, I wrote:

"I don't expect that I would OC in most cases even if a clear cut and dry OC bill had passed except for certain venues."

To which you responded:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tslex View Post
But to each his own -- if you are an OC acolyte, no skin off my nose. Making it legal wouldn't make it smart but, hey, go for it."
I have little confidence that you read the actual bill language any more carefully than you read what I posted.

This discussion is more about what the bill means or does not mean. It really has nothing to do with whether you or I want to OC even if it were 100% legal.

You also said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tslex View Post
I take off the jacket before I drive. When I do so, my pistol could be exposed to view for about a second if you happened to be looking in the right spot. I don't give this a moment's thought. In the wildly unlikely event it is noticed, the consequence to me will be essentially zero. I'm not getting arrested for that.
There are many things that people happen to not get arrested for but that doesn't make them legal.

It sounds like you are trying to argue that under the current law you can expose your CW legally "for about a second". I say that is not the case.

That would NOT be a violation under the new language.

There is no doubt that the language is muddy to parse in some respects but not in others.

To sum up what I am saying about your post, the things that you actually do everyday (that you were not worried about anyway) which were actually not legal, are going to become legal.

I can support what I am saying with the actual bill language and not just what was printed in the newspapers.
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Old 06-10-2011, 12:30   #14
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Okie-dokey, Black dobe.

I am sure you know best.

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Old 06-10-2011, 12:43   #15
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I can't find a single case in which a permit-holder was arrested just for an inadvertent display.

The new law does nothing but codify an unwritten law.
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Old 06-10-2011, 12:46   #16
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Originally Posted by glockurai View Post
It does not allow open carry. It only protects a ccwer from being arrested if the firearm is briefly and/or accidentally exposed. For example, the wind blows your jacket open or you reach up to grab something at a supermarket.
Open carry is only legal if going hunting, fishing, and to the range.
I've not heard about the range thing, but I suppose that is obvious, your gun can be in the open there.

Also, camping is a legal open carry thing.

However, you CANNOT conceal the weapon in those instances without a license. It MUST be open carried.
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Old 06-10-2011, 12:52   #17
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I can't find a single case in which a permit-holder was arrested just for an inadvertent display.

The new law does nothing but codify an unwritten law.
Winner winner chicken dinner.

But shhhhh. Don't tell Dobe. He believes he's got a nifty new OC law to celebrate. And he's ever so much smarter than us. So shhhhh.

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Old 06-10-2011, 13:19   #18
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Winner winner chicken dinner.

But shhhhh. Don't tell Dobe. He believes he's got a nifty new OC law to celebrate. And he's ever so much smarter than us. So shhhhh.
Haha, so when you can't support your arguments - get snarky.

That must work out well for ya in a courtroom.

Show me one thing that I said that indicates that I believe we have open carry in Florida. You can't because I didn't.

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And he's ever so much smarter than us.
My comments were directed at you so there is no "us" - and yes, I think I am smarter than you. You've demonstrated that pretty well.
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Old 06-10-2011, 13:41   #19
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Golly gosh, Dobie. This is all just WAY too important to you, isn't it? I'm sure with this passion, attention to detail, laser insight, second-order analysis and reading comprehension you are fearsome in court.

You win. I yield. You have completely convinced me of everything you say. You = right. Me = wrong.

I'm sorry I was snarky and mean. So very sorry.



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Old 06-10-2011, 16:25   #20
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Originally Posted by eracer View Post
I can't find a single case in which a permit-holder was arrested just for an inadvertent display.

The new law does nothing but codify an unwritten law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tslex View Post
Winner winner chicken dinner.

But shhhhh. Don't tell Dobe. He believes he's got a nifty new OC law to celebrate. And he's ever so much smarter than us. So shhhhh.
Just so we are all on the same page; while there may not be arrest records for that reason, some have been subjected to detention while things get squared away.
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Old 06-10-2011, 20:18   #21
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Just so we are all on the same page; while there may not be arrest records for that reason, some have been subjected to detention while things get squared away.
You're right on that. In fact, people have been proned out for such things.
I believe the NRA cited such case during the legislative session.
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Old 06-10-2011, 20:41   #22
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... -- so be ready to open carry your wallet.



...



Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackDobe View Post
You're right on that. In fact, people have been proned out for such things.
I believe the NRA cited such case during the legislative session.

I'm unconvinced that the law will prevent someone from possibly being proned out if their gun is accdentally exposed or from being temporarily detained until a permit is verified.
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Old 06-11-2011, 09:02   #23
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I'm unconvinced that the law will prevent someone from possibly being proned out if their gun is accdentally exposed or from being temporarily detained until a permit is verified.
I’m afraid it comes with the territory of engaging in an illegal activity that is made legal only by the possession of a license. How long or how uncomfortable that detainment will be varies depending on the parties involved.

I agree with you, that will not likely change regardless of the change in the law where brief exposure is no longer considered illegal. However, some may decide to play and get involved in the fun of attempting to define “brief”.

I expect to read several interesting articles on that subject shortly after it goes into effect.

.
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