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Old 05-06-2011, 22:42   #1
Animal Mother
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Anti-sharia laws stir concerns that halachah could be next

WASHINGTON (JTA) -- With conservative lawmakers across the United States trying to outlaw sharia, or Islamic religious law, Jewish organizations are concerned that halachah could be next.

If the state legislative initiatives targeting sharia are successful, they would gut a central tenet of American Jewish religious communal life: The ability under U.S. law to resolve differences according to halachah, or Jewish religious law.


When the American Jewish Committee, Orthodox Union, American Civil Liberties Union, the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty and Americans United for Separation of Church and State all agree on something, maybe they have a point.
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Old 05-07-2011, 00:23   #2
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Not even all Orthodox Jews agree:

"But there are also Jews supportive of the anti-sharia laws, such as David Yerushalmi, an Orthodox lawyer who has written extensively on the topic and testified on the matter as some legislatures consider the proposed laws.

"Yerushalmi argues that sharia differs from halachah or Christian canon law because it sanctions jihad, which he says amounts to sedition through seeking the overthrow of governments through nonviolent and violent means.

"Because Jihad necessarily advocates violence and the destruction of our representative, constitution-based government, the advocacy of jihad by a sharia authority presents a real and present danger," he wrote recently on a conservative website. "This is sedition when advocated from within our borders; an act of war when directed at us from foreign soil."
"

sharia is sedition. Like the man says.
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Old 05-07-2011, 01:18   #3
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sharia is sedition. Like the man says.
As usual, you find no reason to let the facts get in the way if you can find someone who might agree with you, even when that isn't what the man actually said.
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Old 05-07-2011, 02:09   #4
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As usual, you find no reason to let the facts get in the way if you can find someone who might agree with you, even when that isn't what the man actually said.
Maybe you didn't read the article closely enough. sharia= jihad, jihad=sedition. Therefore, sharia=sedition. Not so difficult.

On another subject, did you see Atlas Shrugged?
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Old 05-07-2011, 02:38   #5
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Maybe you didn't read the article closely enough. sharia= jihad, jihad=sedition. Therefore, sharia=sedition. Not so difficult.
If either one of the first two equations were true, you might have an argument. But, they're not and you don't.
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On another subject, did you see Atlas Shrugged?
I foolishly made the mistake of reading the book, why would I inflict the film upon myself?
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Old 05-07-2011, 03:23   #6
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There seems to be considerable misunderstanding on this. There is no threat to our established laws from either source. What you are looking at is civil contract law, where people make agreements among themselves. Those agreements are something of a law to those who choose to participate, but need not apply to anyone else. They are free to establish whatever rules amongst themselves that they wish, provided those rules do not conflict with existing laws. In essence, they have entered into a contract, and as with most contracts there is considerable "boilerplate" language. The fact that the "boilerplate" language includes reference to religious rules should make no difference to others.

With regards to the Florida case, the parties had agreed to settle any disputes through arbitration - a very common contractual provision. The fact that they chose a Muslim arbiter, is nobody else's business unless some aspect of the decision is unconscionable by our traditional legal standards. From what I have seen from the local Florida newspaper articles, the only questions surrounding the arbitration seem to deal with whether the particular arbiter and his handling of the matter were fair or grossly biased.
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Old 05-07-2011, 10:39   #7
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There seems to be considerable misunderstanding on this. There is no threat to our established laws from either source. What you are looking at is civil contract law, where people make agreements among themselves. Those agreements are something of a law to those who choose to participate, but need not apply to anyone else. They are free to establish whatever rules amongst themselves that they wish, provided those rules do not conflict with existing laws. In essence, they have entered into a contract, and as with most contracts there is considerable "boilerplate" language. The fact that the "boilerplate" language includes reference to religious rules should make no difference to others.

With regards to the Florida case, the parties had agreed to settle any disputes through arbitration - a very common contractual provision. The fact that they chose a Muslim arbiter, is nobody else's business unless some aspect of the decision is unconscionable by our traditional legal standards. From what I have seen from the local Florida newspaper articles, the only questions surrounding the arbitration seem to deal with whether the particular arbiter and his handling of the matter were fair or grossly biased.
Tell that to the people of England, France, Sweden. Tell that to the girls who are the victims of honor killings.
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Old 05-07-2011, 10:48   #8
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Tell that to the people of England, France, Sweden. Tell that to the girls who are the victims of honor killings.
Perhaps you have a link to cases in England, France, or Sweden where honor killings are excused due to Sharia law?

Randy
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Old 05-07-2011, 11:19   #9
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If either one of the first two equations were true, you might have an argument. But, they're not and you don't.
I see. So the problem here is that you just don't agree with the Orthodox Jewish lawyer that I quoted from your article.

It wasn't then that I misunderstood what he said, it is your distaste of what he said and my agreement with it. Got it.

Your defense of the indefensible continues. Got that too.







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I foolishly made the mistake of reading the book, why would I inflict the film upon myself?
Ok! Lol. You're all sweetness and light these days. I think I'll start referring to you as "sunshine".
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Old 05-07-2011, 14:27   #10
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Originally Posted by bandmasterjf View Post
Tell that to the people of England, France, Sweden. Tell that to the girls who are the victims of honor killings.
Murder is murder that is already outlined in national law. Now I have heard or read no proposals to change that here or in any of the countries you listed. Please send a new article or link to a proposal to do that. there will always be those that will take their religion as an excuse to do horrible things, just look at the history of the world, making it illegal unfortunately does not stop them. Same reason gun bans donít work.
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Old 05-07-2011, 19:14   #11
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I see. So the problem here is that you just don't agree with the Orthodox Jewish lawyer that I quoted from your article.
Correct, because he's wrong. On the other hand, you disagree with everyone except that lawyer, simply because you don't like the conclusions they reach, despite those conclusion being based in fact.
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It wasn't then that I misunderstood what he said, it is your distaste of what he said and my agreement with it. Got it.
It isn't distaste, it's that he makes a factual error.
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Your defense of the indefensible continues. Got that too.
Once again, I don't feel that the First Amendment and the protections it enumerates are indefensible. I'm disappointed that you do feel that way.
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Last edited by Animal Mother; 05-07-2011 at 19:17..
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Old 05-07-2011, 19:48   #12
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When the American Jewish Committee, Orthodox Union, American Civil Liberties Union, the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty and Americans United for Separation of Church and State all agree on something, maybe they have a point.
Or maybe they're all dhimmis.

Some in this thread seem to think sharia can't hurt you.

They think that 'moderate' Muslims won't follow the bad parts of sharia here in the USA. But Muslims keep immigrating, keep converting people, and keep having large numbers of children. When they feel emboldened enough, they will assert what Islamic scholars, the hadith, Mohammed, and the history of Islam have all always pointed to: that a Muslim must adhere to ALL aspects of sharia. And Islam demands Muslims must fight to make all of the world sharia compliant.

Don't think so?

Study history.

And review the injustices that happen to Muslim women who do not adhere to sharia dress codes, or who dare to leave home without a male relative escorting them. Sharia punishments may involve flogging or honor killing. Or amputating a hand for shoplifting, stoning to death for adultery, beheading, etc. A female rape victim must have four male witnesses, under sharia. An apostate from Islam (and that would include any 'moderate' Muslim) is to be killed, under sharia. As is anybody who 'insults' Islam, the Koran, or the Prophet. Sharia demands jihad duty from all Muslims who are able. Sharia demands part of zakat charity goes to support jihad.

Banning sharia means affirming our Constitution and traditional American freedom. But I agree that that is not enough. We also need to stop listening to suicidal leftist multiculturalism. Stop political correctness. Stop Muslim immigration. Failure to do so guarantees bloodshed for at least our children and grandchildren, if not ourselves.
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Old 05-07-2011, 19:58   #13
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Perhaps you have a link to cases in England, France, or Sweden where honor killings are excused due to Sharia law?

Randy

http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives...ned-alive.html

http://www.truthandgrace.com/muslimhonorkilling.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

THAT WAS PRETTY EASY.
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Old 05-07-2011, 23:24   #14
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Perhaps you have a link to cases in England, France, or Sweden where honor killings are excused due to Sharia law?
Apparently not that easy, because you completely failed to answer the question. Where in these countries are honor killings being excused because they are allowed by Sharia Law? Nobody is disputing that honor killings take place, the question is where in the west are these legal because they are sanctioned by Sharia?

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Old 05-08-2011, 16:41   #15
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Perhaps you have a link to cases in England, France, or Sweden where honor killings are excused due to Sharia law?

Randy
Does Australia count?

A Muslim father there repeatedly stabbed his 2-yr old daughter until she died, in a 'honor'-type killing. The mother, his estranged former partner/fiance, wears a cross around her neck. After the murder, he sent her a text message telling her what he's done. Here's part of it: "U wanted to convert ma kid". In keeping with sharia misogyny and Christophobia, this Muslim creep 'taught his ex a lesson for acting "indapendant"'. Leftist MSM puts Christophobic stories on the front page, but keeps silent about stuff like this. Maybe all the leftyfeminists were washing their hair that day.

Also in Australia, a Muslim convicted of conspiracy to commit an act of terror (in accordance with what Islam dictates) yelled abuse at the judge. Our dhimmis keep assuring us that Islam is so 'peaceful'.

In Europe, Muslims have set up "no-go" zones in many major cities, places where 'infidel' law carries little or no weight. It's partly here in Dearborn, Michigan too. The Detroit News today said, "Arab-American and Muslim leaders said they received assurances today from federal LE officials that added security in the wake of the death of OBL wouldn't result in profiling". What could go wrong with the FBI, DOJ, and DHS assuring Muslim leaders they're exempt from scrutiny?

Meanwhile in Switzerland, more Muslims are training in jihad camps (jihad and sharia being integral to Islam).

In London, Muslims held a mock funeral for OBL, threatening revenge, and waving signs declaring, "Islam will dominate the world". Real moderate and peaceful, huh?

Dhimmitude is part of sharia too. Infidels are supposed to know their place and kow-tow to their Muslim betters. Thus a dhimmi judge in Hamburg, Germany, filed a complaint against Chancellor Angela Merkel for being glad OBL is dead. He called it "endorsing a crime".

In Thailand, Muslims shot a farmer to death, and also detonated a bomb at a soccer field where police were playing a friendly game with villagers -four were killed.

In Denmark, Islamic expert, Lars Hedegaard was found guilty of "hate speech" for offending Muslims.

The lights are going out in the free world because of our left's cowardly dhimmitude in the face of Islamic aggression.
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Old 05-08-2011, 17:16   #16
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So which cases were excused?
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Old 05-08-2011, 17:51   #17
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Does Australia count?

A Muslim father there repeatedly stabbed his 2-yr old daughter until she died, in a 'honor'-type killing. The mother, his estranged former partner/fiance, wears a cross around her neck. After the murder, he sent her a text message telling her what he's done. Here's part of it: "U wanted to convert ma kid". In keeping with sharia misogyny and Christophobia, this Muslim creep 'taught his ex a lesson for acting "indapendant"'. Leftist MSM puts Christophobic stories on the front page, but keeps silent about stuff like this. Maybe all the leftyfeminists were washing their hair that day.

Also in Australia, a Muslim convicted of conspiracy to commit an act of terror (in accordance with what Islam dictates) yelled abuse at the judge. Our dhimmis keep assuring us that Islam is so 'peaceful'.

In Europe, Muslims have set up "no-go" zones in many major cities, places where 'infidel' law carries little or no weight. It's partly here in Dearborn, Michigan too. The Detroit News today said, "Arab-American and Muslim leaders said they received assurances today from federal LE officials that added security in the wake of the death of OBL wouldn't result in profiling". What could go wrong with the FBI, DOJ, and DHS assuring Muslim leaders they're exempt from scrutiny?

Meanwhile in Switzerland, more Muslims are training in jihad camps (jihad and sharia being integral to Islam).

In London, Muslims held a mock funeral for OBL, threatening revenge, and waving signs declaring, "Islam will dominate the world". Real moderate and peaceful, huh?

Dhimmitude is part of sharia too. Infidels are supposed to know their place and kow-tow to their Muslim betters. Thus a dhimmi judge in Hamburg, Germany, filed a complaint against Chancellor Angela Merkel for being glad OBL is dead. He called it "endorsing a crime".

In Thailand, Muslims shot a farmer to death, and also detonated a bomb at a soccer field where police were playing a friendly game with villagers -four were killed.

In Denmark, Islamic expert, Lars Hedegaard was found guilty of "hate speech" for offending Muslims.

The lights are going out in the free world because of our left's cowardly dhimmitude in the face of Islamic aggression.
Perhaps you don't understand the question.

Randy
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Old 05-08-2011, 17:52   #18
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That was pretty pathetic.

The question is where in western countries supposedly under Sharia law where those things are allowed because Sharia law allows them.

Try again.

Randy

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Old 05-08-2011, 18:10   #19
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ok so we got some people justifying murder by a religious code. not a legal code that makes killing legal
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Old 05-08-2011, 23:17   #20
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They want their law to supercede ours. That is a treat. Your argument is much like saying Sarah Brady isn't a threat to gun owners becuase she hasn't passed anything yet.
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Old 05-08-2011, 23:26   #21
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They want their law to supercede ours. That is a treat. Your argument is much like saying Sarah Brady isn't a threat to gun owners becuase she hasn't passed anything yet.
So you're unable to provide examples to Steve's previous question and are trying another approach.

How about this... do you support hate crime laws?
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Old 05-08-2011, 23:28   #22
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They want their law to supercede ours.
Who does? Where is the documentation of this desire? If that desire does exist, how is it different than the desire of some Christians to have a legal code based on the Bible?
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That is a treat.
I assume you mean threat, and no, it's not.
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Your argument is much like saying Sarah Brady isn't a threat to gun owners becuase she hasn't passed anything yet.
Wrong. It's like arguing that halacha is a threat to non-Jews because it is used in matters of private arbitration with the agreement of both parties.
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Old 05-09-2011, 01:05   #23
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They want their law to supercede ours. That is a treat. Your argument is much like saying Sarah Brady isn't a threat to gun owners becuase she hasn't passed anything yet.
I want to be able to fly. That doesn't make me a threat to the airline industry.

Randy
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Old 05-09-2011, 15:55   #24
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So you're unable to provide examples to Steve's previous question and are trying another approach.

How about this... do you support hate crime laws?

No I don't. Crime is crime.
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Old 05-09-2011, 16:16   #25
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No I don't. Crime is crime.
Exactly -- hey, something we agree on! -- the motivation for a murder should not matter if it was because somebody:
  • was gay
  • wanted to defraud you of your fortune
  • brought dishonor to the family (Sharia Law sanctioned honor killing),
  • or was a Redwings fan
So if murder is illegal, and separation of Church and State is covered by the First Amendment, what additional protection is the prohibition of Sharia Law meant to provide?

What corresponding protections should be put in place to prevent the codification of Christian ideology such as efforts to ban gay marriage and abortion?

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