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Old 06-18-2011, 16:30   #21
achysklic
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Originally Posted by jjboogie View Post
Because Jesus told them to stay in Jerusalem until they are clothed with power from on high!

To inaugurate the NT church!

Besides it was perfectly ok for true Israel to observe the Jewish holidays and traditions!

Remember the early church was all Jewish for several years!

It would have been wrong for them to try and force Gentile Christians to observe those holidays since they were for Israelites.
Are you serious?

THEY ARE GODS FEASTS not the Israelites. (or the jews as you put it) (BTW not all Israelites are jews)

His Sabbaths!

If they were no longer to keep Gods Holy Days( not the jews) This would have been the perfect time to give a sermon on not no longer keeping them wouldn't it?

But oh wait, no sermon was EVER given, no command was EVER recorded in the new test was it?

In fact read on a few chapters in acts and you will see the early church keeping the other Holy Days of God.....Strange huh?

Man cannot change God, for God to change there has to be a command given, also Jesus kept all the Holy Days ( since He gave them) and Paul stated he did everything Jesus did. If Paul didn't I wouldn't believe a word he said!

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Old 06-18-2011, 16:53   #22
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Collosians 2:16-23, " 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."

So, the law of ordinances and feast days are no longer required. You are right _THE_ Sabbath day is still in effect as it has been from the foundation of the world, but the special Sabbath festivals, New Moon celebrations, are no longer required. The ceremonial aspects that point to Christ or the law of ordinances put in place by men and Moses are not in effect. What is still in effect is clearly illuminated in the decalogue.

I appreciate your religious predilections and understand the doctrines of the World Wide Church of God, who still keep the festivals, but it states clearly we are not to judge others regarding them. I do not judge you.
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Old 06-18-2011, 17:17   #23
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Collosians 2:16-23, " 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."

So, the law of ordinances and feast days are no longer required. You are right _THE_ Sabbath day is still in effect as it has been from the foundation of the world, but the special Sabbath festivals, New Moon celebrations, are no longer required. The ceremonial aspects that point to Christ or the law of ordinances put in place by men and Moses are not in effect. What is still in effect is clearly illuminated in the decalogue.

I appreciate your religious predilections and understand the doctrines of the World Wide Church of God, who still keep the festivals, but it states clearly we are not to judge others regarding them. I do not judge you.
I am in no way affiliated with WWCG. I follow the teachin gs of Jesus only.

I am not judging SDA, but to say we keep the weekly Sabbath and ignore Gods other Sabbaths is strange to me. Kinda fence riding so to speak.

I agree with alot of the things you and Vic say...I have great respect for you guys. I am just confused as to why you only adhear to part of Gods laws?
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Old 06-18-2011, 17:52   #24
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The Law that was given for transgression wasn't the Torah. It was the Mosaic Covenant, to include the Tabernacle Law. The first time Moses went up to the Mountain he only received the Torah. The second time he received the Law of the Tabernacle.

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

It was the sacrifices and burnt offerings that were added.

The Torah, including the ordinances, are forever for all Israel. If you believe in Messiah, you ARE Israel.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
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Old 06-18-2011, 19:55   #25
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Are you serious?
Are you? ;-)

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THEY ARE GODS FEASTS not the Israelites. (or the jews as you put it) (BTW not all Israelites are jews)
Same difference to me and I know not all Israelites are Jews however all Israelites are Israelites and that was my point.


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If they were no longer to keep Gods Holy Days( not the jews) This would have been the perfect time to give a sermon on not no longer keeping them wouldn't it?
Perfect time? Actually just the opposite! What better way to turn people off right off the bat!

This is about Jesus! Besides I did not say they were no longer to keep God's Holy Days but that they were no longer a requirement in order to have a covenant relationship with God! That's the context!

Quote:
But oh wait, no sermon was EVER given, no command was EVER recorded in the new test was it?
Sure there was!

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In fact read on a few chapters in acts and you will see the early church keeping the other Holy Days of God.....Strange huh?
Not strange at all! Much expected from faithful Jews of the time! Plus see my earlier point on Holy Days.

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Man cannot change God, for God to change there has to be a command given, also Jesus kept all the Holy Days ( since He gave them) and Paul stated he did everything Jesus did. If Paul didn't I wouldn't believe a word he said!

Plenty of commands given by Paul.

Of course Jesus kept them! Jesus was a faithful obedient Jew under the Old Covenant!
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Old 06-19-2011, 00:14   #26
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Vic better read the prophecy concerning the feast of tabernacles again it's not a one time thing, it happen once a yr every yr.
The tabernacle was cleansed once a year also. The heavenly sanctuary only gets cleansed once.
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Old 06-19-2011, 00:25   #27
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Ok one last quick question for you Vic.

If Gods Holy Days were only part of the old cov. The why was the early church keeping the Day of Pentecost when God gave the Holy Spirit to mankind?
Excellent question.
The early Church contained both circumcised Jews and uncircumcised Gentiles. It is an obligation for circumcised to keep all of the book of the law. It is not an obligation for those uncircumcised to keep all of the book of the law.

Paul said that Gentile converts were not to be circumcised and circumcised Jews were not to give up their circumcision.

I Corinthians 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

You really need to stop being so biased and look for truth in the Word. If the Word said that I should be circumcised I would do it. If the Word said that I should keep the feast days I would do it. An honest look at scripture says that the feast days are not an obligation for a Gentile like me.
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Old 06-19-2011, 03:39   #28
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Excellent question.
The early Church contained both circumcised Jews and uncircumcised Gentiles. It is an obligation for circumcised to keep all of the book of the law. It is not an obligation for those uncircumcised to keep all of the book of the law.

Paul said that Gentile converts were not to be circumcised and circumcised Jews were not to give up their circumcision.

I Corinthians 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

You really need to stop being so biased and look for truth in the Word. If the Word said that I should be circumcised I would do it. If the Word said that I should keep the feast days I would do it. An honest look at scripture says that the feast days are not an obligation for a Gentile like me.
Vic how is it biased to believe only what the bible teaches?

Funny the word does say you need to be circumcised, it says you have to have circumcision of the heart now.(maybe thats the problem)

As for Paul let's look at a few things ok

Although some of his writings were difficult to understand, even by his contemporaries (2 peter 3:15-16) Paul's explicit statements and actions contradict any notion that he annulled or abolished observance of these Holy Days.

In,1 cor 11:1-2 for example, Paul told his followers, "Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ," and, "Keep the traditions as I delivered them to you.

If Paul's practice had not been to observe the feast days God had instituted, his comments to the Jews and gentiles in Corinth would have been meaningless. Clearly, evidence is lacking that Paul ever discouraged anyone from keeping the annual festivals; such a notion would have been unthinkable for him (Acts 24:12-14, 25:7-8, 28:17)

Paul and all the apostles taught a consistent message of the Christian's obligation to follow the example of Jesus Christ in all matters. The apostle John, who wrote near the close of the first century, summed up this message: "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked" (1john 2:6)
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Old 06-19-2011, 09:02   #29
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To remain either circumcised or uncircumcised has nothing to do with the Law. It was an idiom, and it meant the exact same thing as the decision in Acts regarding gentiles. They did not need to go through the conversion rituals for Judaism. And the did not have to stop being Jews. There is now one Law for both Jew and Gentile. A new covenant that did not require rituals. Just belief.
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Old 06-19-2011, 09:21   #30
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To put it in a nutshell, circumcision of the heart is 'holiness.' It implies being cleansed from sin … "Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Corinthians 7:1). As a consequence, the believer has the virtues of Christ, and aims to fulfil the text which says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).

The circumcised of heart have godly love. This is the fulfilment of the ROYAL LAW … "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself" (Luke 10:27). We are to cleave to the Lord and make Him our one desire, but it is not possible to love God if we detest others. This commandment should affect our every thought, word and deed.

There will always be those who think they will obtain the promise without dealing faithfully with God. These blasphemers persuade themselves that they are guiltless. Such a vain hope! Every child of Adam must come by the "strait gate" (Matthew 7:13), "take up his cross" (Matthew 16:24), and be "sanctified" (1 Corinthians 6:11) to win the prize.
True circumcision of heart requires that we "present" our bodies as a "living sacrifice" (Romans 12:1). Such a sacrifice must be continuously offered upon the flames of holy love.
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:03   #31
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Vic how is it biased to believe only what the bible teaches?
Just like anyone else who isn't looking at the whole picture, bias is the result.

The types of Christ have met their fulfillment. Continuing them as an obligation diminishes the sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf. We are not pleasing God when we continue to think that we must do this or that ceremony to please Him.
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:15   #32
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In,1 cor 11:1-2 for example, Paul told his followers, "Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ," and, "Keep the traditions as I delivered them to you.

If Paul's practice had not been to observe the feast days God had instituted, his comments to the Jews and gentiles in Corinth would have been meaningless. Clearly, evidence is lacking that Paul ever discouraged anyone from keeping the annual festivals; such a notion would have been unthinkable for him (Acts 24:12-14, 25:7-8, 28:17)

Paul specifically pointed out that the Gentiles were not to be circumcised in the flesh or to keep the ordinances written by Moses in the Book of the Law.
Are you ignoring this fact?

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Feast days are not an obligation.
BTW Did you go to Jerusalem to observe Pentecost?
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:38   #33
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Paul specifically pointed out that the Gentiles were not to be circumcised in the flesh or to keep the ordinances written by Moses in the Book of the Law.
Are you ignoring this fact?

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Feast days are not an obligation.
BTW Did you go to Jerusalem to observe Pentecost?
Will address the rest of your post in abit gotta run, However if you would like I will show you where only the Jews have to keep Pentecost in Jerusalem.. Deep subject but I will explain it to you if you are willing to accept it if the Bible teaches it.

Deal?

I ask you to go up and read what I post I have addressed what you say, I just hate repeating everything.

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Old 06-19-2011, 11:06   #34
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Act 15:21 “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every Sabbath.”
Act 15:22 Then it seemed good to the emissaries and elders, with all the assembly, to send chosen men from among them to Antioch with Sha’ul and Barnaḇah: Yehuḏah being called Barsabba, and Sila, leading men among the brothers,



Why does this part always get left out? Those 4 laws were hardly inclusive. If that's all there is to living a holy life then why did He die? They expected the new believers to learn the commandments. These 4 laws were a starting point. A place where fellowship could occur. It's only after they were told the new believers would eventually learn the commandments did it "please the brethren".

This part is pretty clear. Not one jot or tittle. The least of the commandments is still expected to be kept.

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets.1 I did not come to destroy but to complete. Footnote: 1The Law and the Prophets is a term used for the pre-Messianic Scriptures.
Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.1 Footnote: 1Lk. 16:17.
Mat 5:19 “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.
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Old 06-19-2011, 13:19   #35
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Act 15:21 “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every Sabbath.”
Act 15:22 Then it seemed good to the emissaries and elders, with all the assembly, to send chosen men from among them to Antioch with Sha’ul and Barnaḇah: Yehuḏah being called Barsabba, and Sila, leading men among the brothers,



Why does this part always get left out? Those 4 laws were hardly inclusive. If that's all there is to living a holy life then why did He die? They expected the new believers to learn the commandments. These 4 laws were a starting point. A place where fellowship could occur. It's only after they were told the new believers would eventually learn the commandments did it "please the brethren".

This part is pretty clear. Not one jot or tittle. The least of the commandments is still expected to be kept.

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets.1 I did not come to destroy but to complete. Footnote: 1The Law and the Prophets is a term used for the pre-Messianic Scriptures.
Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.1 Footnote: 1Lk. 16:17.
Mat 5:19 “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.
Not one jot or tittle of what? It seems you missed which commandments Jesus was referring to. Here is the text where Jesus points to which commandments are essential to eternal life. The one thing lacking was love of God.

Matthew 19:16-19 And behold, one came and said unto Him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And He said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto Him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
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Old 06-19-2011, 15:45   #36
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Not one jot or tittle of what? It seems you missed which commandments Jesus was referring to. Here is the text where Jesus points to which commandments are essential to eternal life. The one thing lacking was love of God.

Matthew 19:16-19 And behold, one came and said unto Him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And He said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto Him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
All Gods commandments are essential to eternal life. Jesus death only ended the sacrifical laws. The 2 greatest commandment hang ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

Vic may I ask what is in the OT the law and prophets?

I just don't understand why you keep Gods Sabbath and ignore His laws.
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Old 06-19-2011, 15:48   #37
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All Gods commandments are essential to eternal life. Jesus death only ended the sacrifical laws.

Where is the passage that teaches this?


The law of Moses is what was ended. Except that which was explicitly reinstated by Jesus in the NT.

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Old 06-19-2011, 16:17   #38
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Not one jot or tittle of what?
The what is the two sentences preceeding:

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets.

Quote:
The law of Moses is what was ended.
Bzzzzzz. Wrong answer.

The Law never ended. Messiah says as much in the passages I posted above. What ended was the Mosaic Covenant. The Torah is now written on our hearts.

Jer 31:31 “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall make a new covenant with the house of Yisra’ĕl and with the house of Yehuḏah1, Footnote: 1See Heb. 8:8-12, Heb. 10:16-17.
Jer 31:32 not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Mitsrayim, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares יהוה.
Jer 31:33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ĕl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.

The Book of the Law was a witness because if you broke one of those laws you in fact broke one of the 10, which in turn is breaking one of the two great commandments. Messiah didn't take the Book of the Law out of the way in that He did away with it. He took it out of the way in that it could no longer condemn us. Our sins are forgiven. This does not in any way mean it isn't still the standard for righteous living. Paul calls it Holy, Righteous, Good, and Spirtiual. Only able to be properly kept with the Spirit He gave us, writing His Torah on our hearts so that we want to do them and apply them correctly.
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Old 06-19-2011, 17:04   #39
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Where is the passage that teaches this?


The law of Moses is what was ended. Except that which was explicitly reinstated by Jesus in the NT.
If you like I can go into great detail and spend much time teaching you about God and His commands. As of right now you don't know the difference between Mosiac code and Gods commandments. If you are truely sincere and want the truth and are willing to learn then by all means I will put the effort into it. If you are not then by all means continue in your lawlessness.

May I ask you though are you without sin?

1john 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law......(No law no sin)

If you only keep the 10 commandments and reject the rest of Gods law I have to ask, why?

Here is a hint Jesus was the word of the OT, He was the creator, He gave all the commands. Al the Sabbaths are His, this is why He said He is Lord of the Sabbath! So in other words Jesus gave the Old cov. He also gave the New conv. Did Jesus ever not keep any of the commandments up to His death?

Or in other words.He was the One who gave the Holy Days to Israel (Lev. 23). He was the YHWH, or God of Israel (I Cor. 10:4), made flesh. He was the Word who was God, who became flesh (John 1:1-4, 14). He was only doing what He Himself told Israel to do centuries earlier.

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Old 06-19-2011, 18:01   #40
Vic Hays
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 11,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by achysklic View Post
All Gods commandments are essential to eternal life. Jesus death only ended the sacrifical laws. The 2 greatest commandment hang ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

Vic may I ask what is in the OT the law and prophets?

I just don't understand why you keep Gods Sabbath and ignore His laws.
The Seventh day Sabbath was from creation and honors God for what he has done in creating and redeeming us.

The Ten commandments are the moral law. That was kept seperate from the Book of the Law written by Moses.
The Book of the Law had all the services and feast days in it. It was put in a pocket outside the ark. The Ten Commandments written by the finger of God were inside the ark.

Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Notice this text is referring to the handwritten law of Moses. These holy days are not now an obligation.

Colossians 2:14,16 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross....................... Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
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Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
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