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Old 06-21-2011, 10:15   #61
jjboogie
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Originally Posted by Brasso View Post
There is no division of the Law. The TeNaK, which stands for Torah, Navim (Prophets), and Ketuvim (Writings) was the only book there was. When they refrence the Torah, it's usually an inclusive phrase. It's a division of the types of books, not a divsion of the Law iteself. The traditional order of the Books in the Tenach, or Old Testament, is not the same as Christian Bibles. They are ordered differently.

I'm aware of the order being different.


Where does the NT teach that we are supposed to continue to keep the Sabbath and Holy Days?

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Old 06-21-2011, 10:40   #62
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Where does the NT teach that we are supposed to continue to keep the Sabbath and Holy Days?
The burden would be on demonstrating that the requirements had been lifted.

If God hands down a law, the expectation must be that it stays in effect until you can demonstrate that it was rescinded.

If God tells you that murder and adultery are forbidden, are you requiring Him to tell you that, "BTW, murder and adultery are still forbidden"?

Unless, I guess, there was some sort of sunset clause.
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Old 06-21-2011, 10:43   #63
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I'm aware of the order being different.


Where does the NT teach that we are supposed to continue to keep the Sabbath and Holy Days?

Don't take this wrong, but a better question would be where in the NT does it command not to keep the Sabbath and Holy Days.

See God commanded us to Keep the Sabbath and His Holy Days. In order not to keep them there has to be a command to stop.

So unless there is a command to stop we are to keep observing them.

By asking for a NT command on keeping them you are telling God His commands were'nt good enough to last!
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Old 06-21-2011, 11:07   #64
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Don't take this wrong, but a better question would be where in the NT does it command not to keep the Sabbath and Holy Days.

See God commanded us to Keep the Sabbath and His Holy Days. In order not to keep them there has to be a command to stop.

So unless there is a command to stop we are to keep observing them.

By asking for a NT command on keeping them you are telling God His commands were'nt good enough to last!


God did not command Christians to keep the Sabbath. It was a covenant between God and Israel... Exodus 31:17, Ezekiel 20:12

Those laws were there to separate Jews from non-Jews.

There are no commands by Jesus or the apostles to Christians to observe the Sabbath or Pentecost or any other Jewish Holy day.


Hebrews 9:15-17 shows us that the New Covenant -- a covenant is a will or testament -- superseded the Old Covenant. Just as two wills cannot be in effect at the same time so there was no overlap between the two testaments. Some parts of the Old Testament are carried over into the New Testament the heart of the Law like the heart of God was unchanged (Galatians 5:14, Matthew 22:37-40). Colossians 2:13-14 definitely shows that the law was nailed to the Cross and the specific commandments that went with it were also nullified.
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Old 06-21-2011, 11:32   #65
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God did not command Christians to keep the Sabbath. It was a covenant between God and Israel... Exodus 31:17, Ezekiel 20:12
Couple of things wrong with that:
1. That as a believer in Messiah you aren't Israel. You are.
2. God never commanded Christians to do anything. He deals only with Israel. Messiah came only for the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. He's the Jewish Messiah. This goes along with #1.
3. The Sabbath existed long before Moses.
4. He came to bring a New Covenant to Israel, i.e. the Jews. Did He really have to tell them to keep keeping the Sabbath? He certainly never told them to stop, which is nice, since He already said it was forever.

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Hebrews 9:15-17 shows us that the New Covenant -- a covenant is a will or testament -- superseded the Old Covenant. Just as two wills cannot be in effect at the same time so there was no overlap between the two testaments. Some parts of the Old Testament are carried over into the New Testament the heart of the Law like the heart of God was unchanged (Galatians 5:14, Matthew 22:37-40).
Perhaps you meant to say Covenant here instead of Testament. I hope so or you are really more confused than I thought. Yes, the Mosaic Covenant is gone. So what is the New Covenant? Jer 31 He writes His Torah on our hearts. Pretty simple. As explained above the only difference between the two covenants is the administration and sacrifices, which Messiah has taken over as the MelechZadok Priest instead of the Levite.

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Colossians 2:13-14 definitely shows that the law was nailed to the Cross and the specific commandments that went with it were also nullified.
The Greek word for Torah/Law is nomos. I dare you find that word anywhere in the entire book of Colossians. The words translated into english as law and ordinances are "chirographon trois dogmasin". Literally, a writen list of violations, or rules. This is exactly what was nailed to His stake. Our sins. Just as His chirographon, "King of the Jews", was nailed to it.

There really is only One Law for Israel. It's been since the beginning and it will continue to be until heaven and earth pass away. Just like Messiah said in Mathew 5.

Let's compare some Scripture....

Deu 30:19 “I have called the heavens and the earth as witnesses today against you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Therefore you shall choose life, so that you live, both you and your seed,

Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.

Interesting? No? Take from it what you will.
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Old 06-21-2011, 19:22   #66
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Our ability to hear God died in the garden. God then prophesied that the Seed would crush the head of what caused death in the first place. Until that time He put us under a "school master" and taught what faith was. Everything taught pointed to this Seed and it was only about Him and how to get ready for Him. When sin arose a sign was given and all who were bitten looked upon it were spared by lifting it up (only by faith). But then they used this image as an idol and saviour(serpent) and God wasnt pleased. Days and ceremonies pointed to Him also.But since the Seed has already crushed the head of the serpent( at the cross) and gave us again the ability to commune with God through Him only, why do we remember things that have already come to past as if they havent, or have but need a little help? First we have to admit we died in the garden so the Spirit can give us His life through faith in Jesus.
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Old 06-21-2011, 19:43   #67
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Couple of things wrong with that:
1. That as a believer in Messiah you aren't Israel.
Yes figuratively not literally.


Israel the way Paul uses it in Romans is speaking of a descendant of Jacob.

A true Jew or true Israelite was a physical Jew who believed in Jesus the Messiah.



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3. The Sabbath existed long before Moses.

Existing and being commanded to observe are two different things and it wasn't commanded to be observed until Sinai!





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Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.
[/COLOR]
Interesting? No? Take from it what you will.

Jesus fulfills the law (v.17). He does not destroy it. Even though the law (Torah) is not the law of God for us, it is still the word of God for us, and we have much to learn from studying it!
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Old 06-21-2011, 21:55   #68
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Yes figuratively not literally.
No. It's quite literal.

Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Messiah, excluded from the citizenship of Yisra’ĕl and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no expectation and without Elohim in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Messiah יהושע you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of the Messiah.

We ARE Israel. Everything says so.

Isa 56:3 “And let not the son of the foreigner who has joined himself to יהוה speak, saying, ‘יהוה has certainly separated me from His people,’ nor let the eunuch say, ‘Look I am a dry tree.’ ”
Isa 56:4 For thus said יהוה, “To the eunuchs who guard My Sabbaths, and have chosen what pleases Me, and hold fast to My covenant:
Isa 56:5 to them I shall give in My house and within My walls a place and a name better than that of sons and daughters – I give them an everlasting name that is not cut off.

Face it. You ARE an Israelite. Literally.

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Existing and being commanded to observe are two different things and it wasn't commanded to be observed until Sinai!
So what did Abraham keep that was never commanded?

Gen 26:5 because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torot1.” Footnote: 1Torot - plural of Torah, teaching

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Jesus fulfills the law (v.17). He does not destroy it.
Well which is it? Does what you said actually make sense to you? What part of the least commandment don't you understand?

When you enter the New Jerusalem which gate are you going to enter through? The one that says Christian?
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

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Old 06-22-2011, 14:55   #69
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No. It's quite literal.

Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Messiah, excluded from the citizenship of Yisra’ĕl and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no expectation and without Elohim in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Messiah יהושע you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of the Messiah.

Ephesians doesn't say that now those in Christ are literal Israelites.

The point is through Christ's redeeming blood they have come into the presence of God. Christ's death obliterated the distinction between Jew and Gentile. See Matthew 27:51; Colossians 2:13-14.



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So what did Abraham keep that was never commanded?

Gen 26:5 because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torot1.” Footnote: 1Torot - plural of Torah, teaching

God commanded Abraham of many things before the Law was given at Sinai. Doesn't mean it was the same set of laws.

Genesis 26 does not say torah!
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Old 06-22-2011, 16:07   #70
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Ephesians doesn't say that now those in Christ are literal Israelites.
How else can you read it?

We were once excluded from the citizenship of Israel. Now we're not. Doesn't that mean we now are a citizen?
We were once strangers from the covenant/s/ of promise. Now we're not.

The Torah says that once you're circumcized that you are to be treated as a native born Israelite. That anyone joining themselves to Israel is to follow the same Laws.

I don't see how you can infer anything else.

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God commanded Abraham of many things before the Law was given at Sinai. Doesn't mean it was the same set of laws.
Now you're grasping at air.

Did you read the passages above about God calling heaven and earth as witnesses against them? That means just what Messiah said. As long as heaven and earth exist, those laws exist. And if there's only one Law for both Jew and Gentile, and the Jews are required to continue in those laws, then Gentiles must also. Simple deduction.
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Old 06-22-2011, 16:25   #71
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How else can you read it?

We were once excluded from the citizenship of Israel. Now we're not. Doesn't that mean we now are a citizen?

The use of this expression shows that Paul was thinking of the commonwealth of the new Israel, the spiritual Israel, which is the church, which is not exclusively the possession of any race or class of people. The spiritual Israel the body of Christ is completely different than the OT Physical Israel.


Quote:
Did you read the passages above about God calling heaven and earth as witnesses against them? That means just what Messiah said. As long as heaven and earth exist, those laws exist. And if there's only one Law for both Jew and Gentile, and the Jews are required to continue in those laws, then Gentiles must also. Simple deduction.
The laws exist only as long as the covenant exists. The old covenant is gone! That is why it's called the old and we now have the new!
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Old 06-22-2011, 18:08   #72
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The use of this expression shows that Paul was thinking of the commonwealth of the new Israel, the spiritual Israel, which is the church, which is not exclusively the possession of any race or class of people. The spiritual Israel the body of Christ is completely different than the OT Physical Israel.




The laws exist only as long as the covenant exists. The old covenant is gone! That is why it's called the old and we now have the new!
1 John 3:4 states: “Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.”

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

Hebrews 1:9 reveals Jesus Christ hates lawlessness: “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.”

Bottom line jjboogie, I would be very careful in teaching and practicing lawlessness!

One more final thought:

In 2 Thessalonians 2:7, Paul prophesied about the secret power of lawlessness that will prepare the world for the coming of the Antichrist: “For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.” In Matthew 24:12, Jesus says lawlessness in the world will be one of the signs of His Second Coming.

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Old 06-22-2011, 20:24   #73
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1 John 3:4 states: “Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.”

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

Hebrews 1:9 reveals Jesus Christ hates lawlessness: “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.”

Bottom line jjboogie, I would be very careful in teaching and practicing lawlessness!

One more final thought:

In 2 Thessalonians 2:7, Paul prophesied about the secret power of lawlessness that will prepare the world for the coming of the Antichrist: “For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.” In Matthew 24:12, Jesus says lawlessness in the world will be one of the signs of His Second Coming.


Who said anything about lawlessness?

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Old 06-22-2011, 21:07   #74
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The use of this expression shows that Paul was thinking of the commonwealth of the new Israel, the spiritual Israel, which is the church, which is not exclusively the possession of any race or class of people. The spiritual Israel the body of Christ is completely different than the OT Physical Israel.
I have no idea how you arrived at this conclusion. If the Gentiles were once separated from the covenants, then who was a part of them? The Jews. And there is only One Torah. And if there is only one Law for Jew and Gentile, and the Jews have to keep the Torah, then the Torah is the Law for both.

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The laws exist only as long as the covenant exists. The old covenant is gone! That is why it's called the old and we now have the new!
You just made that up. The Bible doesn't say this. YHWH said the heaven and earth were a witness. They both still exist. Yeshua said that nothing, not one jot or tittle, from the Torah would pass until heaven and earth did. There's you two witnesses. Literally. You can't just make up excuses because you don't like it.
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Old 06-22-2011, 21:54   #75
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I have no idea how you arrived at this conclusion. If the Gentiles were once separated from the covenants, then who was a part of them? The Jews. And there is only One Torah. And if there is only one Law for Jew and Gentile, and the Jews have to keep the Torah, then the Torah is the Law for both.



You just made that up. The Bible doesn't say this. YHWH said the heaven and earth were a witness. They both still exist. Yeshua said that nothing, not one jot or tittle, from the Torah would pass until heaven and earth did. There's you two witnesses. Literally. You can't just make up excuses because you don't like it.

Read Hebrews chapters 9 and 10

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Old 06-23-2011, 03:10   #76
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Who said anything about lawlessness?
I am sorry, I didn't realize you kept the Sabbath.

For I thought for sure you were saying we no longer have to which is LAWLESSNESS!
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Old 06-23-2011, 08:34   #77
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The laws exist only as long as the covenant exists. The old covenant is gone! That is why it's called the old and we now have the new!
Hebrews is speaking of the Covenant. Not the Torah.


You obviously don't want to know at this point. One day a light bulb is going to come on somewhere inside you and you're going to remember this.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

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Old 06-23-2011, 08:46   #78
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I am sorry, I didn't realize you kept the Sabbath.

For I thought for sure you were saying we no longer have to which is LAWLESSNESS!

You stone your children to death when they are rebellious?

If not you practice lawlessness!

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Old 06-23-2011, 09:07   #79
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I understand that you (most Christians) are having a hard time understanding this. You've been programmed to believe a certain way. But it's really not that hard.

Under the Old Covenant Israel was a kingdom. The Torah was not only commandments, it was the Law of the Land. Much like our own laws in this country.

Under the New Covenant, there is no kingdom yet. The Torah isn't the Law of the Land. It's the Law of our hearts. We don't stone people. Besides which, there is a HUGE difference between the individual and state. One is a believer, the other is not.

However, the Bible is clear that when the Kingdom is manifest on earth, the Torah will once again be the Law of the Land.

Isa 35:8 And there shall be a highway, and a way, and it shall be called “The Way of Set-apartness1.” The unclean does not pass over it, but it is for those who walk the way, and no fools wander on it. Footnote: 1See Ps. 77:13.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

Last edited by Brasso; 06-23-2011 at 09:19..
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:25   #80
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You stone your children to death when they are rebellious?

If not you practice lawlessness!

You really don't understand Gods commandments, why don't you actually do a study on God, His laws, His statues, His ordinances. What applies to Israel past and present.

If you do this you will see how misinformed you are.

If you have questions or need some help finding things I will be glad to help as I am sure Brasso also.
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