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Old 06-23-2011, 11:17   #81
FifthFreedom
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Originally Posted by achysklic View Post

If you have questions or need some help finding things I will be glad to help as I am sure Brasso also.

...............And they will provide a link to a website where they do all of their "studying"
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:28   #82
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Just as I've done in this thread already?
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.
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Old 06-23-2011, 14:37   #83
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I understand that you (most Christians) are having a hard time understanding this. You've been programmed to believe a certain way. But it's really not that hard.

Under the Old Covenant Israel was a kingdom. The Torah was not only commandments, it was the Law of the Land. Much like our own laws in this country.

Under the New Covenant, there is no kingdom yet. The Torah isn't the Law of the Land. It's the Law of our hearts. We don't stone people. Besides which, there is a HUGE difference between the individual and state. One is a believer, the other is not.

However, the Bible is clear that when the Kingdom is manifest on earth, the Torah will once again be the Law of the Land.

Isa 35:8 And there shall be a highway, and a way, and it shall be called “The Way of Set-apartness1.” The unclean does not pass over it, but it is for those who walk the way, and no fools wander on it. Footnote: 1See Ps. 77:13.
So once the Kingdom is manifest on earth, and the Torah is the Law of the Land, then will the death penalty be imposed upon:
  • Disrespecful children
  • Homosexuals
  • Witches
  • Women who are not virgins on their wedding night
  • People who work on the Sabbath
or has the morality changed?

-ArtificialGrape
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Old 06-23-2011, 17:21   #84
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Under the Old Covenant Israel was a kingdom. The Torah was not only commandments, it was the Law of the Land. Much like our own laws in this country.
Wholeheartedly agree and am aware of that.

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Under the New Covenant, there is no kingdom yet.
totally disagree! Saying there's no kingdom is saying Jesus is not King! God's kingdom is God's rule. That's what kingdom means biblically. It means to reign or rule. God is always reigning and always ruling.

The body of Christ...the church is God's kingdom manifest on earth. We are those within God's kingdom who live in a favored state with God.

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However, the Bible is clear that when the Kingdom is manifest on earth, the Torah will once again be the Law of the Land.
Now I understand why your theology is skewed.

The kingdom manifest itself every time Jesus, healed someone or raised someone from the dead. Or when he calmed the storm!

The kingdom manifest itself at Pentecost as well.

Just like Israel was a kingdom of God on earth now the body of Christ the church is now.
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Old 06-23-2011, 19:48   #85
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Now I understand why your theology is skewed.
LOL. You haven't posted a single thing you can support with Scripture and my theology is skewed?


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totally disagree! Saying there's no kingdom is saying Jesus is not King! God's kingdom is God's rule. That's what kingdom means biblically. It means to reign or rule. God is always reigning and always ruling.

The body of Christ...the church is God's kingdom manifest on earth. We are those within God's kingdom who live in a favored state with God.
You are missing my meaning. Yeshua is not reigning over the whole earth right now from Jerusalem. This is not the thousand year reign. His will be done on earth as it is in heaven isn't happening right now. The knowledge of Him doesn't cover the earth like the seas. Everything you said is true, but His Kingdom hasn't been established over the earth yet.

Isa 2:2 And it shall be in the latter days that the mountain of the House of יהוה is established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills. And all nations shall flow to it.
Isa 2:3 And many peoples shall come and say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of יהוה, to the House of the Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ, and let Him teach1 us His ways1, and let us walk in His paths1, for out of Tsiyon comes forth the Torah1, and the Word1 of יהוה from Yerushalayim.” Footnote: 1His ways, His paths, the teaching and the Word of יהוה are used synonymously.
Isa 2:4 And He shall judge between the nations, and shall reprove many peoples. And they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither teach battle any more.
Isa 2:5 O house of Yaʽaqoḇ, come and let us walk in the light of יהוה.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

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Old 06-23-2011, 19:49   #86
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So once the Kingdom is manifest on earth, and the Torah is the Law of the Land, then will the death penalty be imposed upon:

Disrespecful children
Homosexuals
Witches
Women who are not virgins on their wedding night
People who work on the Sabbath

or has the morality changed?
No one in Israel will be doing those things, so no punishment will be necessary.

Isa 35:8 And there shall be a highway, and a way, and it shall be called “The Way of Set-apartness1.” The unclean does not pass over it, but it is for those who walk the way, and no fools wander on it. Footnote: 1See Ps. 77:13.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

Last edited by Brasso; 06-23-2011 at 19:49..
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Old 06-23-2011, 20:41   #87
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You are missing my meaning. Yeshua is not reigning over the whole earth right now from Jerusalem.

If Yeshua isn't reigning over the whole earth then Yeshua isn't reigning at all and is not King.


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This is not the thousand year reign.

No it's not the thousand year reign and I do not hold to the view that the thousand year reign is literal. There is nothing at all in the text to take it literally in Revelation 20.

John is usually old testament language to convey a large number which means totality. It is common Hebraic speech to convey certain thoughts.

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Old 06-23-2011, 21:17   #88
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If Yeshua isn't reigning over the whole earth then Yeshua isn't reigning at all and is not King.
There is a difference between having all authority, and exercising all authority. If you do not believe in a literal reign, be it 1000 years or not, then what do you do with all the passages that speak of it?

There must be a 7th Day rest. Ezekial speaks of it. Isaiah speaks of it. Jeremiah speaks of it. Hosea speaks of it. Micah speaks of it. Heck, all of them speak of it. The entire Bible speaks of it. The very creation itself was made for it.

Act 1:6 So when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Master, would You at this time restore the reign to Yisra’ĕl?”1 Footnote: 1Lk. 1:33.
Act 1:7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
Act 1:8 “But you shall receive power when the Set-apart Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be My witnesses in Yerushalayim, and in all Yehuḏah and Shomeron, and to the end of the earth.”
Act 1:9 And having said this, while they were looking on, He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.
Act 1:10 And as they were gazing into the heaven as He went up, see, two men stood by them dressed in white,
Act 1:11 who also said, “Men of Galil, why do you stand looking up into the heaven? This same יהושע, who was taken up from you into the heaven, shall come in the same way1 as you saw Him go into the heaven.” Footnote: 1Zech. 14:4.

Zec 14:1 See, a day shall come for יהוה, and your spoil shall be divided in your midst.
Zec 14:2 And I shall gather all the gentiles to battle against Yerushalayim1. And the city shall be taken, the houses plundered, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into exile, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Footnote: 1Joel 3:2, Zeph. 3:8, Rev. 16:14.
Zec 14:3 And יהוה shall go forth, and He shall fight against those gentiles, as He fights in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And in that day His feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives, which faces Yerushalayim on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, a very great valley, and half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of My mountain – for the valley of the mountains reaches to Atsal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziyah sovereign of Yehuḏah. And יהוה my Elohim shall come – all the set-apart ones with You.
Zec 14:6 And in that day it shall be: there is no light, it is dark.
Zec 14:7 And it shall be one day which is known to יהוה, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.
Zec 14:8 And in that day it shall be that living waters flow from Yerushalayim1, half of them toward the eastern sea and half of them toward the western sea, in summer as well as in winter. Footnote: 1Rev. 22:1-2.
Zec 14:9 And יהוה shall be Sovereign over all the earth1. In that day there shall be one יהוה, and His Name one. Footnote: 1Isa. 24:23, Dan. 2:44, Rev. 11:15.
Zec 14:10 All the land shall be changed into a desert plain from Geḇa to Rimmon south of Yerushalayim, and she shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Binyamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Ḥanan’ĕl to the winepresses of the sovereign.
Zec 14:11 And they shall dwell in her, and there shall be no more utter destruction1, but Yerushalayim shall be safely inhabited. Footnote: 1Mal. 4:6.
Zec 14:12 And this is the plague with which יהוה plagues all the people who fought against Yerushalayim: their flesh shall decay while they stand on their feet, and their eyes decay in their sockets, and their tongues decay in their mouths.
Zec 14:13 And it shall be in that day that a great confusion from יהוה is among them, and everyone of them shall seize the hand of his neighbour, and his hand rise up against his neighbour’s hand.
Zec 14:14 And Yehuḏah shall fight at Yerushalayim as well. And the wealth of all the gentiles round about shall be gathered together: gold, and silver, and garments in great quantities.
Zec 14:15 So also is the plague on the horse and the mule, on the camel and the donkey, and on all the cattle that are in those camps – as this plague.
Zec 14:16 And it shall be that all who are left from all the gentiles which came up against Yerushalayim, shall go up from year to year to bow themselves to the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts, and to observe the Festival of Booths.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that if anyone of the clans of the earth does not come up to Yerushalayim to bow himself to the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts, on them there is to be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the clan of Mitsrayim does not come up and enter in, then there is no rain. On them is the plague with which יהוה plagues the gentiles who do not come up to observe the Festival of Booths.
Zec 14:19 This is the punishment of Mitsrayim and the punishment of all the gentiles that do not come up to observe the Festival of Booths.
Zec 14:20 In that day “SET-APART TO יהוה” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. And the pots in the House of יהוה shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Zec 14:21 And every pot in Yerushalayim and Yehuḏah shall be set-apart to יהוה of hosts. And all those who slaughter shall come and take them and cook in them. And there shall no longer be a merchant in the House of יהוה of hosts, in that day.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

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Old 06-23-2011, 21:30   #89
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There is a difference between having all authority, and exercising all authority. If you do not believe in a literal reign, be it 1000 years or not, then what do you do with all the passages that speak of it?

There must be a 7th Day rest. Ezekial speaks of it. Isaiah speaks of it. Jeremiah speaks of it. Hosea speaks of it. Micah speaks of it. Heck, all of them speak of it. The entire Bible speaks of it. The very creation itself was made for it.

1000 has historically been conceived as a very large number. It suggests totality. God owns the cattle on 1000 hills (Psalm 50:10). Surely this means he owns all cattle (not to mention all the hills too), not just some of them.

God shows mercy to 1000 generations of those who love and obey him (Exodus 20:6). Surely his mercy does not expire after 1000 literal generations.

The point is that his mercy is unlimited.

Thus this is a symbolic number, and is being used figuratively, not literally.
1000 years shows that Satan has been completely defeated. This is not a period of time at all; it is a symbol of the defeat of the devil.

Further evidence that the 1000 years is a symbol, not a literal time period, is found in verse 6. Those rising in the first resurrection serve as priests for 1000 years. If this were literal, they would not serve after the 1000 years. And yet all Christians are priests (1:6; 5:10), all the time. Thus we are dealing with a symbol.

Does that makes sense? Can we agree on the biblical usage of 1,000 years?

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Old 06-23-2011, 23:21   #90
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So once the Kingdom is manifest on earth, and the Torah is the Law of the Land, then will the death penalty be imposed upon:
  • Women who are not virgins on their wedding night
or has the morality changed?


-ArtificialGrape
I've seen this mentioned in this forum on other occassions and would like to know the scripture referrence for this. I've never been able to find any scripture that says this. And if this is the case, then what about men?

I don't mean to derail the thread - just asking for a scripture reference.
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Old 06-23-2011, 23:37   #91
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I've seen this mentioned in this forum on other occassions and would like to know the scripture referrence for this. I've never been able to find any scripture that says this. And if this is the case, then what about men?

I don't mean to derail the thread - just asking for a scripture reference.
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Old 06-24-2011, 02:40   #92
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Originally Posted by Brasso View Post
No one in Israel will be doing those things, so no punishment will be necessary.

Isa 35:8 And there shall be a highway, and a way, and it shall be called “The Way of Set-apartness1.” The unclean does not pass over it, but it is for those who walk the way, and no fools wander on it. Footnote: 1See Ps. 77:13.
So once the "Kingdom is manifest on earth" there will not really be a need for a Law of the Land as everybody will be a Holy Automata by then, and it would seem that free will is no longer a problem.

-ArtificialGrape
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Old 06-24-2011, 05:15   #93
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So once the "Kingdom is manifest on earth" there will not really be a need for a Law of the Land as everybody will be a Holy Automata by then, and it would seem that free will is no longer a problem.

-ArtificialGrape
During the 1,000 yr reign Satan is bound.
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Old 06-24-2011, 09:12   #94
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During the 1,000 yr reign Satan is bound.
1000 has historically been conceived as a very large number. It suggests totality. God owns the cattle on 1000 hills (Psalm 50:10). Surely this means he owns all cattle (not to mention all the hills too), not just some of them.

God shows mercy to 1000 generations of those who love and obey him (Exodus 20:6). Surely his mercy does not expire after 1000 literal generations.

The point is that his mercy is unlimited.

Thus this is a symbolic number, and is being used figuratively, not literally.
1000 years shows that Satan has been completely defeated. This is not a period of time at all; it is a symbol of the defeat of the devil.

Further evidence that the 1000 years is a symbol, not a literal time period, is found in verse 6. Those rising in the first resurrection serve as priests for 1000 years. If this were literal, they would not serve after the 1000 years. And yet all Christians are priests (1:6; 5:10), all the time. Thus we are dealing with a symbol.
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Old 06-24-2011, 11:27   #95
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Or perhaps the number is real. Peter says that a day with God is as 1000 years. There were 6 days of creation. The 7th Day is a Sabbath. Man was given 6000 years to rule the earth, the 7th Day is the Lords. He is Lord of the Sabbath.

Messiah was born on the 4th day, or 4000 year mark.

On the 2nd day He will revive, and in the 3rd day He will raise us up.

Too many other passages suggesting a literal 1000 year reign and this is just off the top of my head.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

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Old 06-24-2011, 11:55   #96
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Or perhaps the number is real. Peter says that a day with God is as 1000 years. There were 6 days of creation. The 7th Day is a Sabbath. Man was given 6000 years to rule the earth, the 7th Day is the Lords. He is Lord of the Sabbath.
Peter never gives a "celestial equivalent" to earth years here in 2 Peter 3:8. Here a thousand years emphasizes how slowly God moves (from our human perspective). In Psalm 90 the view is from the opposite angle: (our) time flies quickly!

Peter says the that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

He NEVER says they are equivalents!

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Too many other passages suggesting a literal 1000 year reign and this is just off the top of my head.
There is absolutely nothing to suggest 1000 years is literal in an apocalyptic book filled with imagery and poetic writings.
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Old 06-24-2011, 14:25   #97
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1000 has historically been conceived as a very large number. It suggests totality. God owns the cattle on 1000 hills (Psalm 50:10). Surely this means he owns all cattle (not to mention all the hills too), not just some of them.

God shows mercy to 1000 generations of those who love and obey him (Exodus 20:6). Surely his mercy does not expire after 1000 literal generations.

The point is that his mercy is unlimited.

Thus this is a symbolic number, and is being used figuratively, not literally.
1000 years shows that Satan has been completely defeated. This is not a period of time at all; it is a symbol of the defeat of the devil.

Further evidence that the 1000 years is a symbol, not a literal time period, is found in verse 6. Those rising in the first resurrection serve as priests for 1000 years. If this were literal, they would not serve after the 1000 years. And yet all Christians are priests (1:6; 5:10), all the time. Thus we are dealing with a symbol.
Yet there is a period of time be it literal or not I believe it is a literal 1000 yrs but others have always questioned God. Anyways There is to be a period of time after christ raises His church and bounds Satan and rules and teaches with His saints (church) for this period....This hasn't happened yet. It is comming though we have the promise of God on this.
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Old 06-24-2011, 14:31   #98
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So once the "Kingdom is manifest on earth" there will not really be a need for a Law of the Land as everybody will be a Holy Automata by then, and it would seem that free will is no longer a problem.
Not quite. There will be no temptation. Combined with the Holy Spirit, people just won't be sinning. At least not in any exceptional ways. No one is suggesting that free will is gone. If you don't have the Holy Spirit, it's hard to understand.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

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Old 06-24-2011, 14:33   #99
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Peter says the that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

He NEVER says they are equivalents!
Yet, in other places the inference is made.

After two days He will revive us. After 3 days He will raise us up....
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.
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Old 06-24-2011, 14:34   #100
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[*]Women who are not virgins on their wedding night


-ArtificialGrape

Taking that out of context. I'll explain it to you when i get a chance
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